Jesus claimed He came to fulfill the Law, Did He?

[Leaf473]

Brother, God uses language perfectly, as He tells us.

The rain and snow come down from the heavens and stay on the ground to water the earth. They cause the grain to grow, producing seed for the farmer and bread for the hungry. It is the same with my word. I send it out, and it always produces fruit. It will accomplish all I want it to, and it will prosper everywhere I send it. (Isaiah 55:10-11 NLT)

Yes, God uses language perfectly. At the same time, different humans reading what God wrote may understand it differently.

We can see that different translators and commentators are attaching different meanings to the same passage in Matthew 5 that is the topic of this thread.

 

[Leaf473]

You are saying that because humans misuse their language, God must misuse language as well for us to understand Him. We must learn our own language to understand God's message. God cannot give up the correct use of language or we will never understand Him.

No, that isn't what I'm saying.

I'm saying that there is ambiguity in all human language. Not every single word or sentence, no. But a passage of sufficient length, yes.

The exchange we are having at this moment is a great example. The meaning that you attached to my post is not the meaning that I had when I wrote it.

 

[Leaf473]

Picking up here,

The use in English of the "simple past" is ambiguous with the verb form that is the same as the past tense, so the context determines whether used is the "simple past", but that is not the case of the Aorist. The Aorist form of the verb differentiates it from the past tense, unlike English with the "simple past", where the form of the verb is the same as that of the past tense.

I believe I have stated my reasons for having a different interpretation from yourself and have posted some references to support my position. Imo, for us to continue going over essentially the same things isn't edifying.

Jesus is referring to all of the law, because He did not use the smaller set in the word "commandments" as He does in this next passage.

If you love me, obey my commandments. (John 14:15 NLT)

Cool! We basically agree there.

Then, Matthew 5:18 For most certainly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the law, until all things are accomplished.

I take that to mean that the entire law is in effect until "all things are accomplished."
Do you see it the same way?

 

[prophecy_uk]

Knowledge edifies nobody.


Charity does.


Jesus edified us through laying His life down, we are to believe in being dead with Him in baptism, and risen in righteousness.


Gods love must be fulfilled in us, and it is when we also lay our lives down, and if we keep them, than what is fulfilled is a law of sin and death which we then were not freed from.

 

[guevaraj]

I take that to mean that the entire law is in effect until "all things are accomplished." Do you see it the same way?

Brother, happy Sabbath! Not all the law is in effect, because replaced are those shadows fulfilled with their reality in Jesus, but fulfilled is not everything misunderstanding the "simple past" of Mathew 5:17. The Sabbath remains in effect corrected from Judaism since Joshua, a tradition that is wrong away from the Promised Land as explained in Hebrews 3 and 4. Under Joshua, Judaism did not benefit from God's lesson with Manna during the 40 years near the Promised Land, keeping the seventh day of the week when God tells us that they did not enter His "rest" near the Promised Land because it was different from the Sabbath that they kept by direct instructions from God in the Promised Land. They entered God's "rest" in the Promised Land, but they did not understand under Joshua that the Sabbath in the Promised Land from evening to evening is not the seventh day of the week as they assumed because they did not benefit from God's lesson with an incorrect Sabbath near the Promised Land from morning to morning that did not enter His "rest" for 40 years.

God’s promise of entering his rest still stands, so we ought to tremble with fear that some of you might fail to experience it. For this good news—that God has prepared this rest—has been announced to us just as it was to them. But it did them no good because they didn’t share the faith of those who listened to God. For only we who believe can enter his rest. As for the others, God said, “In my anger I took an oath: ‘They will never enter my place of rest,’” even though this rest has been ready since he made the world. We know it is ready because of the place in the Scriptures where it mentions the seventh day: “On the seventh day God rested from all his work.” But in the other passage God said, “They will never enter my place of rest.” (Hebrews 4:1-5 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[Leaf473]

Not all the law is in effect, because replaced are those shadows fulfilled with their reality in Jesus, but fulfilled is not everything misunderstanding the "simple past" of Mathew 5:17.

Okay, you believe that not all of the law is in effect. How do you understand the smallest letter of the law not passing away?

 

[prophecy_uk]

If nobody can get some stability in their minds, here it is.


Jesus calls us out of this life, to end our thoughts for what we eat and drink, ( or laws to not eat) and the disciples left all to follow Jesus.

Jesus goes to the synagogues on sabbath days, and rests not, but preaches and teaches, works the works of God, healing and miracles.

We are called to be priests, to preach the gospel, and to lose all our life, to first seek God and His righteousness.

That is what Jesus fulfilled of the law, the law brought no fruit, so the kingdom was given o those of faith to bring fruits now. ( not by copying Israel then in no fruit by laws)

 

[guevaraj]

Okay, you believe that not all of the law is in effect. How do you understand the smallest letter of the law not passing away?

Brother, the law continues in Jesus. Now Jesus is our High Priest and we turn to Him daily in prayer to forgive our sins. This faster cycle of forgiveness is more efficient in separating us from our sins than the death of so many animals. It's more easily understood that the law against sin and its punishment remains if understood was God's forgiveness. Our forgiven sins do not disappear with the death of Jesus! Jesus death is just the beginning of His daily intercessory ministry in the heavenly temple. Jesus as our High Priest ultimately transfers through His blood our punishment for our confessed sins to Satan. Satan will die not only for his sins, but also for our confessed sins handed over to our High Priest to transfer, as shown in the earthly copy of the heavenly temple service with Jesus now as our High Priest.

Here is the main point: We have a High Priest who sat down in the place of honor beside the throne of the majestic God in heaven. There he ministers in the heavenly Tabernacle, the true place of worship that was built by the Lord and not by human hands. And since every high priest is required to offer gifts and sacrifices, our High Priest must make an offering, too. If he were here on earth, he would not even be a priest, since there already are priests who offer the gifts required by the law. They serve in a system of worship that is only a copy, a shadow of the real one in heaven. For when Moses was getting ready to build the Tabernacle, God gave him this warning: “Be sure that you make everything according to the pattern I have shown you here on the mountain.” But now Jesus, our High Priest, has been given a ministry that is far superior to the old priesthood, for he is the one who mediates for us a far better covenant with God, based on better promises. (Hebrews 8:1-6 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[Leaf473]

Brother, the law continues in Jesus. Now Jesus is our Hight Priest and we turn to Him daily in prayer to forgive our sins. This faster cycle of forgiveness is more efficient in separating us from our sins than the death of so many animals. It's more easily understood that the law against sin and its punishment remains if understood was God's forgiveness. Our forgiven sins do not disappear with the death of Jesus! Jesus death is just the beginning of His daily intercessory ministry in the heavenly temple. Jesus as our High Priest ultimately transfers through His blood our punishment for our confessed sins to Satan. Satan will die not only for his sins, but also for our confessed sins handed over to our High Priest to transfer, as shown in the earthly copy of the heavenly temple service with Jesus now as our High Priest.

Here is the main point: We have a High Priest who sat down in the place of honor beside the throne of the majestic God in heaven. There he ministers in the heavenly Tabernacle, the true place of worship that was built by the Lord and not by human hands. And since every high priest is required to offer gifts and sacrifices, our High Priest must make an offering, too. If he were here on earth, he would not even be a priest, since there already are priests who offer the gifts required by the law. They serve in a system of worship that is only a copy, a shadow of the real one in heaven. For when Moses was getting ready to build the Tabernacle, God gave him this warning: “Be sure that you make everything according to the pattern I have shown you here on the mountain.” But now Jesus, our High Priest, has been given a ministry that is far superior to the old priesthood, for he is the one who mediates for us a far better covenant with God, based on better promises. (Hebrews 8:1-6 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Hmmm...

You're saying then that no part of the law has passed away, not even the smallest letter?

 

[guevaraj]

Hmmm... You're saying then that no part of the law has passed away, not even the smallest letter?

Brother, I am not the one who said it. It's written!

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 5:17-20 NIV)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[Leaf473]

Brother, I am not the one who said it. It's written!

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven. (Matthew 5:17-20 NIV)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Yes, I agree that Jesus said it.

"For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."

And there's a condition on it, some kind of time limit
"until everything is accomplished."

In your view, has that happened yet?

 

[guevaraj]

Yes, I agree that Jesus said it. "For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." And there's a condition on it, some kind of time limit "until everything is accomplished." In your view, has that happened yet?

Brother, no, accomplished is not everything. Jesus continues to fulfill the daily ministry of forgiving our sins in the heavenly temple until John no longer sees a temple in the new Jerusalem descending from heaven to settle on the Earth.

I saw no temple in the city, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. (Revelation 21:22 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[Leaf473]

Brother, no, accomplished is not everything. Jesus continues to fulfill the daily ministry of forgiving our sins in the heavenly temple until John no longer sees a temple in the new Jerusalem descending from heaven to settle on the Earth.

I saw no temple in the city, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. (Revelation 21:22 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Okay, and this part

"...not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law..."

What would it mean for the smallest letter or the least stroke of a pen to disappear from the law?

 

[guevaraj]

Okay, and this part, "...not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law..." What would it mean for the smallest letter or the least stroke of a pen to disappear from the law?

Brother, a future change to the law is that there will no longer be a temple in heaven, but even this continues in that the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple after there is no longer a building.

I saw no temple in the city, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. (Revelation 21:22 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[prophecy_uk]

Brother, the law continues in Jesus. Now Jesus is our Hight Priest and we turn to Him daily in prayer to forgive our sins. This faster cycle of forgiveness is more efficient in separating us from our sins than the death of so many animals. It's more easily understood that the law against sin and its punishment remains if understood was God's forgiveness. Our forgiven sins do not disappear with the death of Jesus! Jesus death is just the beginning of His daily intercessory ministry in the heavenly temple. Jesus as our High Priest ultimately transfers through His blood our punishment for our confessed sins to Satan. Satan will die not only for his sins, but also for our confessed sins handed over to our High Priest to transfer, as shown in the earthly copy of the heavenly temple service with Jesus now as our High Priest.

Here is the main point: We have a High Priest who sat down in the place of honor beside the throne of the majestic God in heaven. There he ministers in the heavenly Tabernacle, the true place of worship that was built by the Lord and not by human hands. And since every high priest is required to offer gifts and sacrifices, our High Priest must make an offering, too. If he were here on earth, he would not even be a priest, since there already are priests who offer the gifts required by the law. They serve in a system of worship that is only a copy, a shadow of the real one in heaven. For when Moses was getting ready to build the Tabernacle, God gave him this warning: “Be sure that you make everything according to the pattern I have shown you here on the mountain.” But now Jesus, our High Priest, has been given a ministry that is far superior to the old priesthood, for he is the one who mediates for us a far better covenant with God, based on better promises. (Hebrews 8:1-6 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Jesus sanctified us once and for all, and by pure belief in the pure blood of Christ we are sprinkled in our hearts from the evil conscience, that sinned against others and that did not know the love of God is the opposite to the devils sins and lies, it is kindness, mercy and love which works never ill ( to believe in) and to exhibit.

The letter and stony heart of stone tables, is replaced by fleshy tables of the heart, to understand is to care, it is knowing the love of God that passes all knowledge ( that man shows here on this forum, and is the purpose of their forums and why I am answering on it, for now)




Hebrews 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Hebrews 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Ephesians 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

 

[Leaf473]

Brother, a future change to the law is that there will no longer be a temple in heaven, but even this continues in that the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple after there is no longer a building.

I saw no temple in the city, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. (Revelation 21:22 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

Sorry, I don't follow what you're saying. Could you explain some more?

What would it mean if the smallest letter did disappear from the law now?

Edit: What if we look at it this way:

Suppose an entire statute disappeared from the law yesterday. Would that mean we would not keep that statute today?

 

[guevaraj]

Sorry, I don't follow what you're saying. Could you explain some more?

Brother, when accomplished is everything, the temple goes on forever without the need for a building.

I saw no temple in the city, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. (Revelation 21:22 NLT)​

For now, the temple remains while the heavenly judgement takes place in two parts: first the house of God and then the rest of the world during the thousand years.

I watched as thrones were put in place and the Ancient One sat down to judge. His clothing was as white as snow, his hair like purest wool. He sat on a fiery throne with wheels of blazing fire, and a river of fire was pouring out, flowing from his presence. Millions of angels ministered to him; many millions stood to attend him. Then the court began its session, and the books were opened. (Daniel 7:9-10 NLT)​

What would it mean if the smallest letter did disappear from the law now?

It would mean that achieved is the purpose of that part of the law while the rest of the law remains until achieved is its purpose! Jesus achieved the purpose of killing so many animals to transfer our sins to the temple and ultimately put them on Satan, beginning His daily ministry in the heavenly temple as our High Priest. Jesus provides a faster cycle of forgiveness that more efficiently separates us from our sins as we repent and give our sins to our High Priest to transfer. Basically as I see it, we are saying we don't want this, we were born this way because of Satan, please forgive us our past sins so we can get further and further away from all sin.

I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not even the smallest detail of God’s law will disappear until its purpose is achieved. (Matthew 5:18 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

 

[prophecy_uk]

Jesus came to fulfil what Israel had failed on, Israel did not have knowledge of good, and Jesus shows them that knowledge on sabbath day, see my new thread for this.


Did Jesus rest sabbath, did the disciples of Jesus rest sabbath ?


Did Jesus heal on sabbath ( non life threatening healing) see my new thread on what Judaism and SDA's think about this.

 

[Leaf473]

Brother, when accomplished is everything, the temple goes on forever without the need for a building.

I saw no temple in the city, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple. (Revelation 21:22 NLT)​

For now, the temple remains while the heavenly judgement takes place in two parts: first the house of God and then the rest of the world during the thousand years.

I watched as thrones were put in place and the Ancient One sat down to judge. His clothing was as white as snow, his hair like purest wool. He sat on a fiery throne with wheels of blazing fire, and a river of fire was pouring out, flowing from his presence. Millions of angels ministered to him; many millions stood to attend him. Then the court began its session, and the books were opened. (Daniel 7:9-10 NLT)​

It would mean that achieved is the purpose of that part of the law while the rest of the law remains until achieved is its purpose! Jesus achieved the purpose of killing so many animals to transfer our sins to the temple and ultimately put them on Satan, beginning His daily ministry in the heavenly temple as our High Priest. Jesus provides a faster cycle of forgiveness that more efficiently separates us from our sins as we repent and give our sins to our High Priest to transfer. Basically as I see it, we are saying we don't want this, we were born this way because of Satan, please forgive us our past sins so we can get further and further away from all sin.

I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not even the smallest detail of God’s law will disappear until its purpose is achieved. (Matthew 5:18 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge

I'm not understanding how you are saying this works:

A statute disappearing from the law would mean it has been achieved.
And you say that some parts of the law have been achieved by Jesus.
But then you also say that everything is not yet accomplished.
But Jesus said no part of the law would disappear (be achieved) until everything is accomplished.

Am I understanding what you're saying? Can you see the issue?

 

[guevaraj]

I'm not understanding how you are saying this works: A statute disappearing from the law would mean it has been achieved. And you say that some parts of the law have been achieved by Jesus. But then you also say that everything is not yet accomplished. But Jesus said no part of the law would disappear (be achieved) until everything is accomplished. Am I understanding what you're saying? Can you see the issue?

Brother, I saw the issue and understood again that you are relaying on a bad translation. It would seem that abused is this passage to say the opposite of Jesus' clear message with His death allowing His "daily" intercession to take away our unwanted sins as our High Priest and ultimately transfer all our unwanted sins to Satan through God's forgiveness. The purpose of Jesus as our High Priest is not to take away the law, but to separate us from sin in a cycle of growth through forgiveness that ultimately transfers our unwanted sins to Satan.

Here is the main point: We have a High Priest who sat down in the place of honor beside the throne of the majestic God in heaven. There he ministers in the heavenly Tabernacle, the true place of worship that was built by the Lord and not by human hands. And since every high priest is required to offer gifts and sacrifices, our High Priest must make an offering, too. If he were here on earth, he would not even be a priest, since there already are priests who offer the gifts required by the law. They serve in a system of worship that is only a copy, a shadow of the real one in heaven. For when Moses was getting ready to build the Tabernacle, God gave him this warning: “Be sure that you make everything according to the pattern I have shown you here on the mountain.” But now Jesus, our High Priest, has been given a ministry that is far superior to the old priesthood, for he is the one who mediates for us a far better covenant with God, based on better promises. (Hebrews 8:1-6 NLT)​

United in our hope for the soon return of Jesus, Jorge