A Common Assumption Among Catholicism & Protestants

[bbbbbbb]

No, only the one who repented; He did however forgive those who condemned and executed him.

Does that mean that those who sin in ignorance are forgiven?

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

No, only the one who repented; He did however forgive those who condemned and executed him.

What about objective universal justification?

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Does that mean that those who sin in ignorance are forgiven?

To clarify; He asked God the Father to forgive them.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

What about objective universal justification?

Explain, I don't even know what that means; if we are, as the Bible says "justified by faith" and faith certainly is not universal; how can there be universal justification?

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

What is Objective Justification?

Explain, I don't even know what that means; if we are, as the Bible says "justified by faith" and faith certainly is not universal; how can there be universal justification?

 

[bbbbbbb]

To clarify; He asked God the Father to forgive them.

Does Jesus Christ ask His Father to forgive just those who crucified Him in ignorance for forgiveness or is this a principle where He asks His Father to forgive all who are guilty of having crucified Him in ignorance?

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

What is Objective Justification?

While Christ did die for all, it does not mean that all will receive those benefits; justification by faith.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Does Jesus Christ ask His Father to forgive just those who crucified Him in ignorance for forgiveness or is this a principle where He asks His Father to forgive all who are guilty of having crucified Him in ignorance?

A Common Assumption Among Catholicism & Protestants

 

[bbbbbbb]

A Common Assumption Among Catholicism & Protestants

Were those of whom He spoke, "Father, forgive them for they know what they do?" justified by faith?

 

[concretecamper]

.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Were those of whom He spoke, "Father, forgive them for they know what they do?" justified by faith?

No. Were they justified while having no faith; I think not. Christ wants all to be saved, truth is, not all want to be saved, nore will they be.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

While he intended that all files be swatted, some flies rejected the swatting. Because the desire to swat all flies is there, it does not automatically make all flies swatted. Thanks for posting this concretecamper. LOL.

 

[bbbbbbb]

No. Were they justified while having no faith; I think not. Christ wants all to be saved, truth is, not all want to be saved, nore will they be.

Therefore, those who crucified Christ were forgiven (saved) despite the fact that none of them actually desired to be saved, being quite ignorant.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

God's desire is aborted? We are some pretty powerful flies.

While he intended that all files be swatted, some flies rejected the swatting. Because the desire to swat all flies is there, it does not automatically make all flies swatted. Thanks for posting this concretecamper. LOL.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

Therefore, those who crucified Christ were forgiven (saved) despite the fact that none of them actually desired to be saved, being quite ignorant.

Agreed. Whenever others speak about how we can thwart God's will, I feel like I've entered a Dualist universe of sorts, where entities can battle God and win.
I believe that God will not save save us without ourselves, that is, according to our freewill. But this has always been a different question for me, as freewill can only exist where one is in harmony with God.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Therefore, those who crucified Christ were forgiven (saved) despite the fact that none of them actually desired to be saved, being quite ignorant.

No, stop putting words in my mouth. Without faith, it is likely that despite Christ praying that they are not going to to be saved.

If ignorance is an excuse, or as you are alluding to, a way to salvation, then our faith in Chris means nothing. Zero.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Seems some in this thread is promoting unorthodox theology.

 

[bbbbbbb]

No, stop putting words in my mouth. Without faith, it is likely that despite Christ praying that they are not going to to be saved.

If ignorance is an excuse, or as you are alluding to, a way to salvation, then our faith in Chris means nothing. Zero.

Am I correct in understanding you that although Christ asked the Father to forgive those who crucified them in ignorance, they were forgiven, but not saved? Or, did God not forgive them?

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

Seems some in this thread is promoting unorthodox theology.

The link I posted was from a WELS site. Universal Objective Justification is common to both them and the LCMS. They would say, we believe the Gospel because it is true, we do not believe in order to make it true. Christ died for and thus redeemed (justified) the whole world. At the cross, he took on the sins of every person to ever live. People can reject this justification, but they can't undo it. Their faith apprehends it but doesn't create it. For them, our justification is the righteousness of Christ, so we are not justified because of our own faith but the faithfulness of Jesus.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Am I correct in understanding you that although Christ asked the Father to forgive those who crucified them in ignorance, they were forgiven, but not saved? Or, did God not forgive them?

Yes, and I spoke to Pastor about this last night, and he got out the Greek NT; interestingly, the phraise "Father, forgive them for they know not what they are doing" is missing from many early Greek texts; so he told me that most scholars agree that Christ may not even have said those words.