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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
A Common Assumption Among Catholicism & Protestants
- Thread starter Thatgirloncfforums
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Explain, I don't even know what that means; if we are, as the Bible says "justified by faith" and faith certainly is not universal; how can there be universal justification?
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Does Jesus Christ ask His Father to forgive just those who crucified Him in ignorance for forgiveness or is this a principle where He asks His Father to forgive all who are guilty of having crucified Him in ignorance?
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While Christ did die for all, it does not mean that all will receive those benefits; justification by faith.
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Were those of whom He spoke, "Father, forgive them for they know what they do?" justified by faith?
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concretecamper
I stand with Candice.
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While he intended that all files be swatted, some flies rejected the swatting. Because the desire to swat all flies is there, it does not automatically make all flies swatted. Thanks for posting this concretecamper. LOL.
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God's desire is aborted? We are some pretty powerful flies.
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Agreed. Whenever others speak about how we can thwart God's will, I feel like I've entered a Dualist universe of sorts, where entities can battle God and win.
I believe that God will not save save us without ourselves, that is, according to our freewill. But this has always been a different question for me, as freewill can only exist where one is in harmony with God.
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No, stop putting words in my mouth. Without faith, it is likely that despite Christ praying that they are not going to to be saved.
If ignorance is an excuse, or as you are alluding to, a way to salvation, then our faith in Chris means nothing. Zero.
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Am I correct in understanding you that although Christ asked the Father to forgive those who crucified them in ignorance, they were forgiven, but not saved? Or, did God not forgive them?
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The link I posted was from a WELS site. Universal Objective Justification is common to both them and the LCMS. They would say, we believe the Gospel because it is true, we do not believe in order to make it true. Christ died for and thus redeemed (justified) the whole world. At the cross, he took on the sins of every person to ever live. People can reject this justification, but they can't undo it. Their faith apprehends it but doesn't create it. For them, our justification is the righteousness of Christ, so we are not justified because of our own faith but the faithfulness of Jesus.
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Yes, and I spoke to Pastor about this last night, and he got out the Greek NT; interestingly, the phraise "Father, forgive them for they know not what they are doing" is missing from many early Greek texts; so he told me that most scholars agree that Christ may not even have said those words.
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