WHY SALVATION CAN BE LOST

[LoveGodsWord]

Prove it. My context does contradict your opinions, yes. But show me my internal contradiction, if there is any.

It is proven in the scriptures from the post you are quoting from. How can you receive Gods' salvation if you do not "believe and follow" what God's Word says? Isn't this the faith of devils that James talks about in James 2:16-26? It is Jesus not me that says in Matthew 7:21 Not every one that said to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven and again and again in Matthew 10:26-27 you believe not, because you are not of my sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. As proven in the scriptures already, if we choose to depart the faith and no longer believe and follow what God's Word says we are no longer believers but have become "unbelievers" who do not receive everlasting life *see Hebrews 4:6-8 and Hebrews 10:26-31 and all the scriptures provided to you in post # 2; post # 3; and post # 5 linked. This is because according to the scriptures, our salvation is conditional on believing and following what God's Word says as shown from the scriptures in post # 7.

I've already asked you to define what is meant by "follow what God's Word says". That's quite a vague claim, don't you think? How is it materially different from observing the Law or keeping the Law? I don't see any difference. And Jesus was very clear with the Pharisees about keeping the Law. It does NOT save. So, can you actually specify from Scripture what "follow what God's Word says" means for salvation?

To believe God's Word means to follow what God's Word says you cannot separate believing God's Word from following what God's Word says. Although we can believe God's Word to justification for God's forgiveness of our sins which is God's gift of grace that we receive through faith alone *Ephesians 2:8-9. This however is different to "sanctification" *John 17:17; 1 Thessalonians 4:3 which is where once we have been given a new life through and God's forgiveness and faith alone we are to walk in newness of life through the Spirit of God *Romans 6:1-23; 1 John 3:6-10 by believing and following what Gods' Word says. According to the scriptures we are to take His yoke upon us and learn of Him *Matthew 11:28-30 and follow him *John 10:26-27. This is the work of a life time of learning God's Word and following what God's Word says as we are guided to walk in His Spirit *Galatians 5:16; John 16:13 where our faith is also tested so all might see if it is genuine or not *James 1:3; 1 Peter 1:9; James 2:17-26.

According to the scriptures, we are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *Ephesians 2:8-9. Obedience to God's law is not how we are saved because all of us have already broken the law and are under it's penalty of condemnation and death *Romans 3:9-23; 2 Corinthians 3:3-11. So it is by God's grace through faith that we are saved through Gods forgiveness of our sins. According to the scriptures, obedience to Gods' law is the fruit of genuine faith of one that is already been given Gods promise of salvation and the fruit of God's work in us *Philippians 2:13 as we believe and follow his word *John 10:26-27. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *James 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *Matthew 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50; Hebrews 10:26-27. Therefore we do not abolish God's law through faith like some people teach but God's law is established in the heart by faith that works by love *Romans 3:31; 1 John 5:3-4; Romans 13:8-10. According to the scriptures, sin (breaking God' commandments and not believing and following God's Word) is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 John 3:6-10; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14 and according to James there is no such thing as faith that does not have the fruit of obedience to Gods' Word. As posted to your friend faith without works is simply the dead faith of devils according to James 2:17-26. Gods Word does not teach lawlessness (without law) *1 John 2:3-4.

I really wish you would pay more attention. I've already noted that James NEVER used the word "faith" in relation to demons. He use the word 'believe' and that is in the context of experience, NOT faith.

Thank you but I am paying very careful attention to everything your claiming here which is why I address your posts section by section showing from the scriptures why I do not believe your teachings. Even here your disregarding the scripture contexts of James 2:17-27 which is "faith and works" and that "faith without works is dead" or not saving faith. James in James 2:19 is showing that genuine faith is not separate from "believing" and "following" what Gods' Word says by showing the the devils believe but do not follow what Gods' Word says.

If you had been paying attention you would have read my explanation of the point of what Jesus was making in Matt 7:21-23. The crowd was basing their entrance into heaven on what THEY HAD DONE. There was no mention of any faith in what Jesus had done for them. Do you understand this difference? In fact, when Jesus said "I never knew you" He was announcing to them they they were NEVER believers.

I think you missed the point as to why I posted Matthew 7:21. It was posted to show that it is Jesus not me that says in Matthew 7:21 Not every one that said to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven. No one therefore is believing Gods' Word if they are not following it. It was provided to show that if our faith does not do what Gods' Word says all we have left is the dead faith of devils that James warns us about in James 2:17-26. As proven in the scriptures already, if we choose to "depart the faith" and no longer believe and follow what God's Word says we are no longer believers but have become "unbelievers" who do not receive everlasting life *see John 3:36; Hebrews 4:6-8 and Hebrews 10:26-31 and all the scriptures provided to you in post # 2; post # 3; and post # 5 linked. This is because according to the scriptures, our salvation is conditional on believing and following what God's Word says as shown from the scriptures in post # 7.

Take Care dear friend.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Let's be honest here. As shown from the scriptures and the Greek already provided to you from the scriptures you provided in John 3 you are the one abusing the Greek as there is no aorist in believe when applied to John 3:18 that you posted neither is their any aorists in John 3:16 or John 3:36 making present tense application to receiving eternal life to believing and not believing.

Do you not understand what "has not believed" means? That's my point. Condemnation is for those who "have not believed". Apparently you seem rather naive about the meaning of the phrase.

The point is this; it means to have NEVER believed. That's who will be condemnd.

As to the aorist tense, I gave you an example from Jesus about present tense drinking that results in GETTING THIRSTY again, and aorist tense drinking that results in NEVER THIRSTING again.

Do you want to discuss this example?

If someone departs the faith they are no longer believing but are unbelieving and John 3:36 says that these people do not see life.

Since John 5:24 clearly says that those believing POSSESS eternal life, are you going to defend your obvious position that if such a person ceases to believe, eternal life is removed from them? For that is exactly what you are arguing, whether you are aware of it or not.

So, please show me any verse that tells us that those who cease to believe have their eternal life removed, taken away, revoked, rescinded, lost, stolen.

If you can't, you don't have a point.

If your interested this is also the same for John 5:24. When discussing Greek grammar and word meaning you should also understand that grammar in regards to interpretation does not supersede scripture context. You have been provided both Greek grammar and context that supports this OP. All you have done in response is to prove you do not understand Greek and we have not even mentioned here that 100+ scriptures already posted ( see *Hebrews 10:26-31; Hebrews 6:4-8 see also post # 2; post # 3; and post # 5; post # 7; post # 189 and post # 199) that disagree with your teachings that we can depart the faith and return to a life of unbelief and known unrepentant sin and still receive everlasting life.

You are judt dodging the obvious point here. It is WHEN a person believes that they receive eternal life. If you disagree, then prove your position with a verse that says when eternal life is received, if not at the moment of faith in Christ.

If you can't, you don't have a point.

This teaching is unbiblical and not supported in the scriptures. I suggest you get Greek lessons on Greek verb tenses and use of the aorist in application to scripture contexts and the verbs they are used with which might be helpful before proceeding any further in this conversation and show how your claims here apply to John 3 and John 5.

What's wrong with John 4 and the excellent example Jesus gave when using both the present and aorist tense of drinking and the results of each.

Let's discuss that. It proves your misunderstanding of the Greek tenses.

Nonsense dear friend. It is you who is abusing the Greek verb tenses in the scripture you provided in John 3 and John 5. All you provided once this was pointed out to you was an off topic scripture application to Acts of the Apostles when we were discussing your claims in regards to John 3 and John 5 that does not use the aorist for believe which is present tense indicative meaning we must be "believing" to receive everlasting life or "not believing" to receive condemnation and death.

Why are you so afraid of John 4 and Jesus' excellent example of His use of the present and aorist tense regarding drinking and the result of each?

Once again not relevant to our discussion and off topic to our conversation. We were discussing John 3 and other scriptures that you were trying to use as a proof text to claim that we can depart the faith into unbelief and sin and still receive everlasting life.

Here, you have just demonstrated that you have no idea what you are talking about.

You said my claim is that one can depart the faith AND STILL RECEIVE ETERNAL LIFE.

I never said that. Eternal life is received the MOMENT one DOES believe. That is exactly what John 5:24 SAYS. If you'd read it, you'd know that.

So, your erroneous statement begs the question: when do you think a person "receives eternal life"?

The bible does not teach anywhere that we can be saved by rejecting God's Word and returning to a life of known unrepentant sin. This teaching is not biblical or supported in the scriptures.

That has NEVER been the argument. But you need to answer the question about WHEN a person receives eternal life. Can you do that?

 

[FreeGrace2]

It is proven in the scriptures from the post you are quoting from. How can you receive Gods' salvation if you do not "believe and follow" what God's Word says?

I have asked you several times to clearly define what you mean by "follow what God's Word says" for salvation. Why have you avoided explaining it?

If that's what it takes to be saved, then there MUST BE a clear explanation of what exactly that means. How can anyone be saved if that phrase isn't explained clearly?

So, until you find the time to explain what it means, there is no point in further discussion.

The rest of any discussion pivots on what you think and can prove what "follows God's Word" actually means.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Do you not understand what "has not believed" means? That's my point. Condemnation is for those who "have not believed". Apparently you seem rather naive about the meaning of the phrase. The point is this; it means to have NEVER believed. That's who will be condemnd.

I think you missed the point of my post again. The scriptures in John 3 or John 5 do not say "never believed" there is no aorist. Their application in John 3 and John 5 is to "believing" and "not believing" (present indicative active). As shown from the scriptures and the Greek already provided to you from the scriptures you provided in context to John 3 and John 5 you are abusing the Greek here as there is no aorist in believe making present tense application to receiving eternal life or not receiving eternal life to "believing" and "not believing". If someone departs the faith they are no longer "believing" but are "unbelieving" and John 3:36 says that these "unbelievers" do not see life. You have been provided both Greek grammar and context that supports this OP. (see *Hebrews 10:26-31; Hebrews 6:4-8 see also post # 2; post # 3; and post # 5; post # 7; post # 189 and post # 199). The scriptures here do not say anywhere in John 3 that those people who were "not believing" - never believed! That is you misinterpreting the Greek because you do not understand Greek grammar of John 3 and John 5 to "believe". There is no aorist used here and application to believe and to not believe is present tense indicative to "believing" or "not believing" (present tense). If someone has "departed the faith" they are no longer "believing".

As to the aorist tense, I gave you an example from Jesus about present tense drinking that results in GETTING THIRSTY again, and aorist tense drinking that results in NEVER THIRSTING again. Do you want to discuss this example?

In the Greek, the interpretation of the scriptures that examine Greek word meaning and grammar outside of scripture context does not determine scripture interpretation. The scriptures context to all Greek word meanings and grammar must be considered in relation to full scripture context and subject matter. The scriptures examples you provided with the use of the aorist to believe were outside of the topic, context, and subject matter to what we were discussing in John 3 and John 5 so were unrelated scriptures to context and subject matter that did not support your claims here or did it disagree with what was being shared with you in the application of "believe" to believing or not believing in John 3 and John 5. The application in these chapters of John to believe here means to be "believing" or "not believing" (present indicative active) as there is no aorist in believe making present tense application to receiving eternal life or not receiving life to "believing" and "not believing". As posted earlier and in this OP the scriptures teach that if someone "departs the faith" *Hebrews 10:26-31 they are no longer "believing" but are "unbelieving" and John 3:36 says that these "unbelievers" do not see life. Sorry dear friend but Gods Word does not teach anywhere that we can "depart the faith" and return to a life of known unrepentant sin and still receive everlasting life. That is a teaching not supported in the scriptures and is unbiblical.

Take Care.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I have asked you several times to clearly define what you mean by "follow what God's Word says" for salvation. Why have you avoided explaining it?

I did not avoid explaining what it means to believe and follow what Gods' Word says. It is explained in the rest of the post you did not provide in your quote and is already answered in the question asked for that matter. That is we believe God's Word and follow what Gods' Word says to us. In the rest of the post you did not quote a detailed scripture response was provided. As posted earlier to believe God's Word means to follow what God's Word says you cannot separate believing God's Word from following what God's Word says. Although we can believe God's Word to justification for God's forgiveness of our sins which is God's gift of grace that we receive through faith alone *Ephesians 2:8-9. This however is different to "sanctification" *John 17:17; 1 Thessalonians 4:3 which is where once we have been given a new life through and God's forgiveness and faith alone we are to walk in newness of life through the Spirit of God *Romans 6:1-23; 1 John 3:6-10 by believing and following what Gods' Word says. According to the scriptures we are to take His yoke upon us and learn of Him *Matthew 11:28-30 and follow him *John 10:26-27. This is the work of a life time of learning God's Word and following what God's Word says as we are guided to walk in His Spirit *Galatians 5:16; John 16:13 where our faith is also tested so all might see if it is genuine or not *James 1:3; 1 Peter 1:9; James 2:17-26.

According to the scriptures, we are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *Ephesians 2:8-9. Obedience to God's law is not how we are saved because all of us have already broken the law and are under it's penalty of condemnation and death *Romans 3:9-23; 2 Corinthians 3:3-11. So it is by God's grace through faith that we are saved through Gods forgiveness of our sins. According to the scriptures, obedience to Gods' law is the fruit of genuine faith of one that is already been given Gods promise of salvation and the fruit of God's work in us *Philippians 2:13 as we believe and follow his word *John 10:26-27. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *James 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *Matthew 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50; Hebrews 10:26-27. Therefore we do not abolish God's law through faith like some people teach but God's law is established in the heart by faith that works by love *Romans 3:31; 1 John 5:3-4; Romans 13:8-10. According to the scriptures, sin (breaking God' commandments and not believing and following God's Word) is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 John 3:6-10; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14 and according to James there is no such thing as faith that does not have the fruit of obedience to Gods' Word. As posted to your friend faith without works is simply the dead faith of devils according to James 2:17-26. Gods Word does not teach lawlessness (without law) *1 John 2:3-4.

Take Care

 

[FreeGrace2]

I think you missed the point of my post again. The scriptures in John 3 or John 5 do not say "never believed" there is no aorist.

I've already addressed this. So, would you just quit?

I gave you an example from Jesus to the woman at the well regarding the present tense and aorist tense of 'drinks' and the results of each. This example refutes your abuse of the present tense.

All you want to talk about is John 3 and 5 but ignore John 4, which gives an example of how Jesus used both tenses, and proves your claims in error.

I asked you when you think the gift of eternal life is given, and you haven't answered yet.

Do you have an answer or not?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I did not avoid explaining what it means to believe and follow what Gods' Word says. It is explained in the rest of the post you did not provide in your quote and is already answered in the question asked for that matter.

Nope. All you've done is repeat your mantra of "following what God's word says" for salvation.

What I asked for was specifically what must be followed. To say "God's Word" can mean the entire Bible. Do you follow exactly EVERYTHING in the Bible? Go ahead and say yes, and then we'll all know that it is a lie. The Bible is clear that no human being can even obey the Law exactly, so don't even try to claim you "follow what God's Word" says.

Your repeated refusal to specifically list what must be followed to be saved exposed the unbiblical claim that you present.

If your claims were true, Paul's answer to the jailer would have been radically different.

That is we believe God's Word and follow what Gods' Word says to us.

Still way to vague to be of any practical use.

What does it say to you? How would you define that specifically?

In the rest of the post you did not quote a detailed scripture response was provided. As posted earlier to believe God's Word means to follow what God's Word says you cannot separate believing God's Word from following what God's Word says.

Too vague. Please be specific.

Although we can believe God's Word to justification for God's forgiveness of our sins which is God's gift of grace that we receive through faith alone *Ephesians 2:8-9.

Now, THIS is specific. And biblical. But when you add ANYTHING else to this for salvation, you are in grave error.

This however is different to "sanctification" *John 17:17; 1 Thessalonians 4:3 which is where once we have been given a new life through and God's forgiveness and faith alone we are to walk in newness of life through the Spirit of God *Romans 6:1-23; 1 John 3:6-10 by believing and following what Gods' Word says.

Right. sanctification is the process by which believers grow up in their salvation. And none of this relates to getting saved, as you have been misguiding those who read what you post.

You have conflated spiritual growth with being born again.

According to the scriptures, we are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *Ephesians 2:8-9.

I agree. So why all this talk about "following what God's Word says" for salvation?

Obedience to God's law is not how we are saved because all of us have already broken the law and are under it's penalty of condemnation and death *Romans 3:9-23; 2 Corinthians 3:3-11. So it is by God's grace through faith that we are saved through Gods forgiveness of our sins. According to the scriptures, obedience to Gods' law is the fruit of genuine faith of one that is already been given Gods promise of salvation and the fruit of God's work in us *Philippians 2:13 as we believe and follow his word *John 10:26-27. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *James 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *Matthew 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50; Hebrews 10:26-27. Therefore we do not abolish God's law through faith like some people teach but God's law is established in the heart by faith that works by love *Romans 3:31; 1 John 5:3-4; Romans 13:8-10. According to the scriptures, sin (breaking God' commandments and not believing and following God's Word) is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 John 3:6-10; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14 and according to James there is no such thing as faith that does not have the fruit of obedience to Gods' Word. As posted to your friend faith without works is simply the dead faith of devils according to James 2:17-26. Gods Word does not teach lawlessness (without law) *1 John 2:3-4.

Take Care[/QUOTE]
Now, do you know WHEN the gift of eternal life is given to people? Or not?

 

[prophecy_uk]

I've already addressed this. So, would you just quit?

I gave you an example from Jesus to the woman at the well regarding the present tense and aorist tense of 'drinks' and the results of each. This example refutes your abuse of the present tense.

All you want to talk about is John 3 and 5 but ignore John 4, which gives an example of how Jesus used both tenses, and proves your claims in error.

I asked you when you think the gift of eternal life is given, and you haven't answered yet.

Do you have an answer or not?

I have an answer.


By the offence of Adam, death came upon all, and by the gift of the grace of Christ , which frees the condemnation of many offences unto justification of life, by the gift of righteousness, and of the obedience of Jesus against the disobedience of Adam...


Romans 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.





Here Jesus speaks of that gift of eternal life to be given, and if you are offending others, to cut off that part of yourself ( that is in Adams example)...



Matthew 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.



Apostle Paul further teaches us in the faith, to give none offence, but to do as him, to please all men in all things, and to not seek our own profit ( as everybody who sins in Adam evidently does)

To not be as Ada then, of disobedience to offend all in many things, but to be as the gift of righteousness, ( through Christ) to bridle the tongue and the whole body from offences to be the perfect man of Christ..



1 Corinthians 10: 32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
33 Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.

James 3:2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.

 

[prophecy_uk]

Nope. All you've done is repeat your mantra of "following what God's word says" for salvation.

What I asked for was specifically what must be followed. To say "God's Word" can mean the entire Bible. Do you follow exactly EVERYTHING in the Bible? Go ahead and say yes, and then we'll all know that it is a lie. The Bible is clear that no human being can even obey the Law exactly, so don't even try to claim you "follow what God's Word" says.

Your repeated refusal to specifically list what must be followed to be saved exposed the unbiblical claim that you present.

If your claims were true, Paul's answer to the jailer would have been radically different.


Still way to vague to be of any practical use.

What does it say to you? How would you define that specifically?


Too vague. Please be specific.


Now, THIS is specific. And biblical. But when you add ANYTHING else to this for salvation, you are in grave error.


Right. sanctification is the process by which believers grow up in their salvation. And none of this relates to getting saved, as you have been misguiding those who read what you post.

You have conflated spiritual growth with being born again.


I agree. So why all this talk about "following what God's Word says" for salvation?

Obedience to God's law is not how we are saved because all of us have already broken the law and are under it's penalty of condemnation and death *Romans 3:9-23; 2 Corinthians 3:3-11. So it is by God's grace through faith that we are saved through Gods forgiveness of our sins. According to the scriptures, obedience to Gods' law is the fruit of genuine faith of one that is already been given Gods promise of salvation and the fruit of God's work in us *Philippians 2:13 as we believe and follow his word *John 10:26-27. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *James 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *Matthew 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50; Hebrews 10:26-27. Therefore we do not abolish God's law through faith like some people teach but God's law is established in the heart by faith that works by love *Romans 3:31; 1 John 5:3-4; Romans 13:8-10. According to the scriptures, sin (breaking God' commandments and not believing and following God's Word) is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 John 3:6-10; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14 and according to James there is no such thing as faith that does not have the fruit of obedience to Gods' Word. As posted to your friend faith without works is simply the dead faith of devils according to James 2:17-26. Gods Word does not teach lawlessness (without law) *1 John 2:3-4.

Take Care

Now, do you know WHEN the gift of eternal life is given to people? Or not?[/QUOTE]




All that the bible contains tell us how to be saved, that is why nothing can be taken or added.

Growth is into Christ, Christ in us, the same as all in Adam did not grow to be wicked, sin and do evil, it is all natural.

When Christ is in someone, they now naturally know how to love, as Christ is love who is in them and guiding them.

All then is fulfilled by Christ by laying His life down for us, as we then understand and believe this is the love of God.

The jailor is not our example to follow, Christ is, we see all the works of God He did, and the Apostles are our example too, as we see them lay their lives down with the love of God in them too.

All others who speak, speak against that, or would have nothing more to add, plus they take away from the testimony of Christ to follow, as we see nothing they do, they only show their disputes.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
I asked you when you think the gift of eternal life is given, and you haven't answered yet.

I have an answer.

By the offence of Adam, death came upon all, and by the gift of the grace of Christ , which frees the condemnation of many offences unto justification of life, by the gift of righteousness, and of the obedience of Jesus against the disobedience of Adam...

Romans 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Could you point me to the place where it specifies WHEN eternal life is given? Thanks.

Here Jesus speaks of that gift of eternal life to be given, and if you are offending others, to cut off that part of yourself ( that is in Adams example)...

Matthew 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Sorry, but I am not seeing where the gift of eternal life is given.

Apostle Paul further teaches us in the faith, to give none offence, but to do as him, to please all men in all things, and to not seek our own profit ( as everybody who sins in Adam evidently does)

No answer here.

To not be as Ada then, of disobedience to offend all in many things, but to be as the gift of righteousness, ( through Christ) to bridle the tongue and the whole body from offences to be the perfect man of Christ..

1 Corinthians 10: 32 Give none offence, neither to the Jews, nor to the Gentiles, nor to the church of God:
33 Even as I please all men in all things, not seeking mine own profit, but the profit of many, that they may be saved.

James 3:2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body.

Sorry, but I still don't see anything here that specifies when the gift of eternal life is given.

Jesus was clear that he gives eternal life. So the question is, when does He?

There is a biblical answer.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Now, do you know WHEN the gift of eternal life is given to people? Or not?

I'm waiting for LoveGodsWord to answer before I point to the verse that tells us.

All that the bible contains tell us how to be saved, that is why nothing can be taken or added.

?

Growth is into Christ, Christ in us, the same as all in Adam did not grow to be wicked, sin and do evil, it is all natural.

?

When Christ is in someone, they now naturally know how to love, as Christ is love who is in them and guiding them.

Paul commands believers how to live. That knowledge isn't "naturally" in any one.

The jailor is not our example to follow

If you are referring to how to be saved, yes he is. If you are referring to spiritual growth, then you would be correct.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I've already addressed this. So, would you just quit?

I gave you an example from Jesus to the woman at the well regarding the present tense and aorist tense of 'drinks' and the results of each. This example refutes your abuse of the present tense.

All you want to talk about is John 3 and 5 but ignore John 4, which gives an example of how Jesus used both tenses, and proves your claims in error.

I asked you when you think the gift of eternal life is given, and you haven't answered yet.

Do you have an answer or not?

Why do you think posting unrelated scripture grammar and subject matter helps your argument? - It doesn't. We are discussing your earlier claims in relation to John 3 and John 5 that you have failed to address because there is no aorist tense in these scriptures in the Greek which means those "believing" receive eternal life while those who are "not believing" (present tense; no aroist) do not receive eternal life. This agrees with the OP that states that those who "depart the faith" to return to a life of unbelief and known unrepentant sin do not receive everlasting life because they have changed from being "believing" (present tense) to "unbelieving" (present tense). So what is your argument here? You do not have one. The problem with your argument here is that your trying to look at different Greek grammar that is applied outside of scripture contexts. I have honestly tried to help you here but it seems your unwilling to take any correction even with the external Greek grammar links I posted earlier. Perhaps you can do a little more prayerful research here in your own time and we can discuss it more latter. I would be happy to help you here if your interested just let me know. Until then we should agree disagree as we are just going around in circles.

Take Care.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

LoveGodsWord said: ↑ I did not avoid explaining what it means to believe and follow what Gods' Word says. It is explained in the rest of the post you did not provide in your quote and is already answered in the question asked for that matter.

Your response here...

Nope. All you've done is repeat your mantra of "following what God's word says" for salvation. What I asked for was specifically what must be followed. To say "God's Word" can mean the entire Bible. Do you follow exactly EVERYTHING in the Bible? Go ahead and say yes, and then we'll all know that it is a lie. The Bible is clear that no human being can even obey the Law exactly, so don't even try to claim you "follow what God's Word" says. Your repeated refusal to specifically list what must be followed to be saved exposed the unbiblical claim that you present.

Sorry dear friend but I respectfully disagree. I did address your question with a detailed scripture response that you left out of your response here that you refused to respond to and ignore. As posted earlier; We believe God's Word and follow what Gods' Word says to us. It is not rocket science. To believe God's Word means to follow what God's Word says you cannot separate believing God's Word from following what God's Word says. Although we can believe God's Word to justification for God's forgiveness of our sins which is God's gift of grace that we receive through faith alone *Ephesians 2:8-9. This however is different to "sanctification" *John 17:17; 1 Thessalonians 4:3 which is where once we have been given a new life through and God's forgiveness and faith alone we are to walk in newness of life through the Spirit of God *Romans 6:1-23; 1 John 3:6-10 by believing and following what Gods' Word says. According to the scriptures we are to take His yoke upon us and learn of Him *Matthew 11:28-30 and follow him *John 10:26-27. This is the work of a life time of learning God's Word and following what God's Word says as we are guided to walk in His Spirit *Galatians 5:16; John 16:13 where our faith is also tested so all might see if it is genuine or not *James 1:3; 1 Peter 1:9; James 2:17-26. According to the scriptures, we are saved by grace through faith and not of ourselves it is a gift of God and not of works lest any man should boast *Ephesians 2:8-9. Obedience to God's law is not how we are saved because all of us have already broken the law and are under it's penalty of condemnation and death *Romans 3:9-23; 2 Corinthians 3:3-11. So it is by God's grace through faith that we are saved through Gods forgiveness of our sins. According to the scriptures, obedience to Gods' law is the fruit of genuine faith of one that is already been given Gods promise of salvation and the fruit of God's work in us *Philippians 2:13 as we believe and follow his word *John 10:26-27. If our faith has no fruit it is dead *James 2:18-20; 26 and our tree will be cast down and thrown into the fire *Matthew 3:10; 7:19-20; 13:49-50; Hebrews 10:26-27. Therefore we do not abolish God's law through faith like some people teach but God's law is established in the heart by faith that works by love *Romans 3:31; 1 John 5:3-4; Romans 13:8-10. According to the scriptures, sin (breaking God' commandments and not believing and following God's Word) is the difference between the children of God and the children of the devil *1 John 3:6-10; Revelation 12:17; Revelation 14:12; Revelation 22:14 and according to James there is no such thing as faith that does not have the fruit of obedience to Gods' Word. As posted to your friend faith without works is simply the dead faith of devils according to James 2:17-26. Gods Word does not teach lawlessness (without law) *1 John 2:3-4.

If your claims were true, Paul's answer to the jailer would have been radically different.

To be honest, I am wondering if you are reading my posts to you. Paul's answer would be the same as what was given you above based on the situation. The situation of the jailer is someone seeking to come to Christ for the first time seeking God's forgiveness (Justification) which is belief in Christ and his gift and promise of forgiveness and eternal life. This however is not the end of the Christian walk. Do you know the difference between justification by faith and sanctification by faith? If so how do you think my answer provided here relates to both justification and sanctification, the jailer and the thief on the cross (Justification) and someone that has been a Christian for 20 years or until they die (Sanctification)?

Take Care.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Why do you think posting unrelated scripture grammar and subject matter helps your argument?

What in the world are you talking about? John 4? You would consider John 4 as "unrelated", but only because to understand Jesus' example of using the present and aorist tense for "drinks" would be to accept that your view of the present tense is wrong.

- It doesn't.

Of course it does.

We are discussing your earlier claims in relation to John 3 and John 5 that you have failed to address because there is no aorist tense in these scriptures in the Greek which means those "believing" receive eternal life while those who are "not believing" (present tense; no aroist) do not receive eternal life.

As I have said previously, why do you ignore John 4, which has been my point about how Jesus used the present and aorist tense with the verb "drinks", a metaphor for believing??

I never brought up John 3. And I mentioned John 5:24 specifically as proving WHEN a person receives the gift of eternal life. You know, the question that you won't answer.

This agrees with the OP that states that those who "depart the faith" to return to a life of unbelief and known unrepentant sin do not receive everlasting life because they have changed from being "believing" (present tense) to "unbelieving" (present tense).

So I ask you AGAIN: when does a person receive eternal iife? Why are you dodging this question?

So what is your argument here? You do not have one.

Good grief, man. Pay attention. Address my point about John 4. Answer the question about WHEN a person receives eternal life.

The problem with your argument here is that your trying to look at different Greek grammar that is applied outside of scripture contexts.[/QUOTE]
nothing is "outside" Scripture contexts. That is just an absurd claim. You know very well my argument destroys yours.

I have honestly tried to help you here but it seems your unwilling to take any correction even with the external Greek grammar links I posted earlier.

You remain confused about the Greek tenses. I have been trying to correct your errors by showing you the example Jesus used, but you just aren't willing to be corrected.

Perhaps you can do a little more prayerful research here in your own time and we can discuss it more latter.

There are only 2 things you need to address (discuss).

#1 - acknowledgee how Jesus used both the present and aorist tense of 'drinks' a metaphor for believing in John 4, ALONG WITH the results of each.

#2 - answer the question as to WHEN a person receives eternal life.

I would be happy to help you here if your interested just let me know.

See #1 and 2 above.

 

[FreeGrace2]

As posted earlier; We believe God's Word and follow what Gods' Word says to us.

That's all very nice, but doesn't make clear what specifically must be followed to be saved, since you have repeatedly used this phrase in the context of salvation.

To "follow God's Word" is way too vague to be of any use. So it's just a smokescreen for you to hide behind. You have NOT specified what EXACTLY must be followed for salvation.

your claim is much like the claim that salvation is by observing the Law. Except we CAN specify what the Law is, and therefore, what MUST BE observed. However, we know that no one is saved by observing the Law. Paul wrote in Rom 3:20 that NO ONE will be justified by observing the Law.

It is not rocket science.

I agree. So why can't you just list what you think must be "followed" in God's word to be saved?

To believe God's Word means to follow what God's Word says you cannot separate believing God's Word from following what God's Word says.

Then, just please, for heaven's sake, list what MUST BE FOLLOWED to be saved. You have NOT specified that yet.

Although we can believe God's Word to justification for God's forgiveness of our sins which is God's gift of grace that we receive through faith alone *Ephesians 2:8-9.

Is this your final answer to the question of what must be followed for salvation?

iow, what else is required, in addition to salvation by faith alone?

To be honest, I am wondering if you are reading my posts to you.

I do, but I dump much of it since it's just a lot of rambling on with lots of citations, but no explanation of what any of your citations mean to you. So what am I supposed to do with your citations? I don't even know what you think they mean?

If you want to explain a particular verse, then I would be able to comment on your view.

Paul's answer would be the same as what was given you above based on the situation.

Since we do know what Paul DID say to the jailer, it isn't a matter of what Paul WOULD answer. Why did you use such wording? We KNOW what he said.

The point: Paul said NOTHIG about "following what God's Word says" for salvation, a phrase you have used repeatedly in the context of salvation.

So Paul's answer isn't anything like what you've been claiming. Totally different.

The situation of the jailer is someone seeking to come to Christ for the first time seeking God's forgiveness (Justification) which is belief in Christ and his gift and promise of forgiveness and eternal life.

But you have added MORE than what Paul did. Adding to Scripture is never a good idea.

This however is not the end of the Christian walk.

So now you seem to be conflating salvation with spiritual growth. What would motivate you to do that?

Do you know the difference between justification by faith and sanctification by faith?

I sure do, but I sincerely doubt that you do.

If so how do you think my answer provided here relates to both justification and sanctification, the jailer and the thief on the cross (Justification) and someone that has been a Christian for 20 years or until they die (Sanctification)?

Take Care.

Your conflations are so absurd and convoluted, I have no idea what your answer might be.

The jailer wanted to know what he MUST DO to be saved. He wasn't even asking about sanctification. The thief was also focused on salvation, and not sanctification.

So your mention of these 2 demonstrates how confused you really are.

It seems to me at this point that you think that one is saved by faith alone, but in order to stay saved, one must grow spiritually (sanctification), or they won't receive eternal life.

Is that a fair assessment of your views?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

What in the world are you talking about? John 4? You would consider John 4 as "unrelated", but only because to understand Jesus' example of using the present and aorist tense for "drinks" would be to accept that your view of the present tense is wrong

Here let me be a bit more helpful here.....

Matthew 4:13-14 [13] Jesus answered and said to her, “Everyone drinking of this water will thirst again; [14] but whoever drinks (aorist) of the water that I will give him will never thirsty again. Instead, the water that I will give to him will become in him a spring of water, welling up into eternal life.”

…………….

THE AORIST IS NOT ALWAYS USED IN THE PAST TENSE

“Because this is the basic genius of the aorist, it can have a phenomenally wide range of usage. You can be looking at the action as a whole but paying special attention to the beginning (“ingressive”) or to the end (“consummative”). It can describes something that simply is regardless of any time reference (“gnomic”). But my favorite is to proleptic (futuristic) use of the aorist. Because time is secondary, the aorist can describe a future event and emphasize the certainty of the action. It is not a common usage, but it does show how we need to keep the idea of “time” in its proper place. Sometimes we will go to translate an aorist as a past tense and the result is just silly. Rev 10:7 says, “But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trump et the mystery of God will be accomplished (ἐτελέσθη), just as he announced to his servants the prophets” (NIV, NRSV is also future). ἐτελέσθη is aorist, but it obviously does not describe a past event. The NASB and HCSB go with the present, “is finished.” The ESV weakens it to the subjunctive, “would be fulfilled.” But my all-time favorite is the voice from heaven at Jesus’ baptism. “This is my Son, the Beloved, with whom I am well pleased (εὐδόκησα)” (Matt 3:17. NRSV). The aorist is not saying that God “was” pleased with Jesus (perhaps implying he was no longer pleased — that would be heresy), but that the sum total of his life, perhaps culminating in his humble submission to a sinner’s baptist, was pleasing to the Father.” (Source: Bill Mounce)

………………

What your not considering in the above scripture is the context which is what was pointed out to you earlier but as well as this the aorist use here is used in the subjunctive form. Jesus says everyone that drinks or is drinking normal water will thirst again and needs to drink normal water again right? It is the context to the hypothetical here that is important because the aorist used in “whoever drinks or whoever may drink” is subjunctive active third person. This means that the tenses of the subjunctive reflect the aspect or condition, not time. The PRESENT and AORIST are the most common tenses of the SUBJUNCTIVE (this might be helpful here see Ancient Greek pressbooks).

So what this means in John 4:13-14 is that “whoever drinks” [14] where the aorist is used in the subjunctive form it is not talking about “past tense” time but “present tense” to the condition of receiving and drinking spiritual water (the Word of God) that Jesus gives us (subjunctive here is hypothetical). This water (the Word) it says “will be” (Future indicative active middle person) which is conditional to being “in him” (the Word in us; by faith; believing) a well of water springing up into everlasting life. The scripture therefore is “conditional” to receiving the spiritual water (the Word of God – Jesus and his words) and this spiritual water remaining in us. So your claims here in John 4:13-14 use of the subjunctive aorist do not support your view that we can "depart the faith" return to a life of unbelief and known unrepentant sin and still receive everlasting life.

The scripture here in John 4:13-14 say nowhere that we can receive Gods’ Word yesterday, and “depart the faith” today so that God’s Word no longer “remains in us” and return to a life of unbelief and sin and still receive everlasting life. As eternal life according to the scriptures is conditional on believing and following what Gods’ Word says. No one receives eternal life by not believing and following what Gods' Word says. This teaching is not biblical and according to James is the dead faith of devils in James 2:17-26

Take Care

 

[LoveGodsWord]

That's all very nice, but doesn't make clear what specifically must be followed to be saved, since you have repeatedly used this phrase in the context of salvation.

To "follow God's Word" is way too vague to be of any use. So it's just a smokescreen for you to hide behind. You have NOT specified what EXACTLY must be followed for salvation.

your claim is much like the claim that salvation is by observing the Law. Except we CAN specify what the Law is, and therefore, what MUST BE observed. However, we know that no one is saved by observing the Law. Paul wrote in Rom 3:20 that NO ONE will be justified by observing the Law.


I agree. So why can't you just list what you think must be "followed" in God's word to be saved?


Then, just please, for heaven's sake, list what MUST BE FOLLOWED to be saved. You have NOT specified that yet.


Is this your final answer to the question of what must be followed for salvation?

iow, what else is required, in addition to salvation by faith alone?


I do, but I dump much of it since it's just a lot of rambling on with lots of citations, but no explanation of what any of your citations mean to you. So what am I supposed to do with your citations? I don't even know what you think they mean?

If you want to explain a particular verse, then I would be able to comment on your view.


Since we do know what Paul DID say to the jailer, it isn't a matter of what Paul WOULD answer. Why did you use such wording? We KNOW what he said.

The point: Paul said NOTHIG about "following what God's Word says" for salvation, a phrase you have used repeatedly in the context of salvation.

So Paul's answer isn't anything like what you've been claiming. Totally different.


But you have added MORE than what Paul did. Adding to Scripture is never a good idea.


So now you seem to be conflating salvation with spiritual growth. What would motivate you to do that?


I sure do, but I sincerely doubt that you do.


Your conflations are so absurd and convoluted, I have no idea what your answer might be.

The jailer wanted to know what he MUST DO to be saved. He wasn't even asking about sanctification. The thief was also focused on salvation, and not sanctification.

So your mention of these 2 demonstrates how confused you really are.

It seems to me at this point that you think that one is saved by faith alone, but in order to stay saved, one must grow spiritually (sanctification), or they won't receive eternal life.

Is that a fair assessment of your views?

Well I have nothing to add to what has already been shared with you already from the scriptures as most of your post here is simply hand waiving the scriptures that disagree with you without showing why you disagree with what was shared with you from the scriptures in post # 233 linked. As well as this your ignoring the questions I asked of you that help the discussion in regards to answering your earlier questions relating to justification and sanctification. Of course you do not have to answer those question if you do not want to. I am sure however that if you did you would have to admit that what I was sharing with you in relation to justification and sanctification demonstrates the conditions of receiving everlasting life which shows why I believe your claims here are not biblical. If your not interested in answering these questions of course you do not have to if you do not want to. I will just leave them between you and God to work through and pray that they might be a blessing to you.

Take Care.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
What in the world are you talking about? John 4? You would consider John 4as "unrelated", but only because to understand Jesus' example of using the present and aorist tense for "drinks" would be to accept that your view of the present tense is wrong

Here let me be a bit more helpful here.....

Really? All you did was quote John 4 from Matthew's gospel. So what?

Matthew 4:13-14 [13] Jesus answered and said to her, “Everyone drinking of this water will thirst again; [14] but whoever drinks (aorist) of the water that I will give him will never thirsty again. Instead, the water that I will give to him will become in him a spring of water, welling up into eternal life.”

THE AORIST IS NOT ALWAYS USED IN THE PAST TENSE[/QUOTE]
I never said it was "always used" in the past. But it IS the generally used PAST tense form.

However, because there is NO time element to the aorist, it is considered a "point in time" kind of action. iow, without regard to time.

“Because this is the basic genius of the aorist, it can have a phenomenally wide range of usage. You can be looking at the action as a whole but paying special attention to the beginning (“ingressive”) or to the end (“consummative”). It can describes something that simply is regardless of any time reference (“gnomic”). But my favorite is to proleptic (futuristic) use of the aorist. Because time is secondary, the aorist can describe a future event and emphasize the certainty of the action. It is not a common usage, but it does show how we need to keep the idea of “time” in its proper place. Sometimes we will go to translate an aorist as a past tense and the result is just silly. Rev 10:7 says, “But in the days when the seventh angel is about to sound his trump et the mystery of God will be accomplished (ἐτελέσθη), just as he announced to his servants the prophets” (NIV, NRSV is also future). ἐτελέσθη is aorist, but it obviously does not describe a past event. The NASB and HCSB go with the present, “is finished.” The ESV weakens it to the subjunctive, “would be fulfilled.” But my all-time favorite is the voice from heaven at Jesus’ baptism. “This is my Son, the Beloved, with whom I am well pleased (εὐδόκησα)” (Matt 3:17. NRSV). The aorist is not saying that God “was” pleased with Jesus (perhaps implying he was no longer pleased — that would be heresy), but that the sum total of his life, perhaps culminating in his humble submission to a sinner’s baptist, was pleasing to the Father.” (Source: Bill Mounce)

<yawn> Yep, I've got Mounce. I also have Wallace's WAY MORE complete "Greek Grammar" text.

What your not considering in the above scripture is the context which is what was pointed out to you earlier but as well as this the aorist use here is subjunctive.

There is no such thing as a "subjunctive aorist", as you presume.

The "subjunctive" deals with the MOOD, not the tense. Totally different.

This is why it is hard to take you seriously. You claim things from ignorance.

Jesus says everyone that drinks or is drinking normal water will thirst again and needs to drink normal water again right? It is the context to the hypothetical here that is important because the aorist used in “whoever drinks or whoever may drink” is subjunctive active third person. This means that the tenses of the subjunctive reflect the aspect or condition, not time. The PRESENT and AORIST are the most common tenses of the SUBJUNCTIVE (this might be helpful here see Ancient Greek pressbooks).

What babble! The aorist is used to describe a simple point in time action. Do you understand what that means? It means to simply take a drink. That is a point in time action.

And Jesus used the aorist with the water He gives to point out that from that SINGLE POINT IN TIME "drink" (or belief in Him) there will be NO MORE THIRST.

iow, Jesus used the aorist to teach eternal security, just as He taught eternal security from John 10:28.

So what this means in John 4:13-14 is that “whoever drinks” [14] where the aorist is used in the subjunctive form it is not talking about “past tense” time but “present tense” to the condition of receiving and drinking spiritual water (the Word of God) that Jesus gives us (subjunctive here is hypothetical).

Again, there is NO SUCH THING AS A SUBJUNCTIVE AORIST. That is just plain ignorance.

This water (the Word) it says “will be” (Future indicative active middle person)

And, there is NO SUCH THING as a "middle person". There is, however, a "middle voice", but apparently you have no knowledge of Greek grammar.

your errors with Greek grammar sink your boat. Obviously you have no idea what you are talking about.

I'm having none of it. If you "learned" about a "subjunctive aorist" or a "middle person" from Mounce, you need to quit reading him and find an actual scholar.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
That's all very nice, but doesn't make clear what specifically must be followed to be saved, since you have repeatedly used this phrase in the context of salvation.

Well I have nothing to add to what has already been shared with you already from the scriptures

Well, there you go. As I thought, you are UNABLE to define what "follow God's Word" for salvation. Typical of those involved in a works-salvation theology.

As well as this your ignoring the questions I asked of you that help the discussion in regards to answering your earlier questions relating to justification and sanctification.

How hypocritical of you. I have asked you several questions and you have repeatedly failed to answer them.

First, you basically admitted at the beginning of this post that you "have nothing to add" to answer my question about defining exactly what "follow God's Word" means for salvation.

Second, you won't answer my question about WHEN a person receives the gift of eternal life. Why don't you know?

Of course you do not have to answer those question if you do not want to. I am sure however that if you did you would have to admit that what I was sharing with you in relation to justification and sanctification demonstrates the conditions of receiving everlasting life

Thanks for reminding me. You also conflate justification and sanctification, demonstrating your own ignorance of Scripture.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
What in the world are you talking about? John 4? You would consider John 4as "unrelated", but only because to understand Jesus' example of using the present and aorist tense for "drinks" would be to accept that your view of the present tense is wrong

Really? All you did was quote John 4 from Matthew's gospel. So what?

Matthew 4:13-14 [13] Jesus answered and said to her, “Everyone drinking of this water will thirst again; [14] but whoever drinks (aorist) of the water that I will give him will never thirsty again. Instead, the water that I will give to him will become in him a spring of water, welling up into eternal life.”

THE AORIST IS NOT ALWAYS USED IN THE PAST TENSE
I never said it was "always used" in the past. But it IS the generally used PAST tense form.

However, because there is NO time element to the aorist, it is considered a "point in time" kind of action. iow, without regard to time.


<yawn> Yep, I've got Mounce. I also have Wallace's WAY MORE complete "Greek Grammar" text.


There is no such thing as a "subjunctive aorist", as you presume.

The "subjunctive" deals with the MOOD, not the tense. Totally different.

This is why it is hard to take you seriously. You claim things from ignorance.


What babble! The aorist is used to describe a simple point in time action. Do you understand what that means? It means to simply take a drink. That is a point in time action.

And Jesus used the aorist with the water He gives to point out that from that SINGLE POINT IN TIME "drink" (or belief in Him) there will be NO MORE THIRST.

iow, Jesus used the aorist to teach eternal security, just as He taught eternal security from John 10:28.


Again, there is NO SUCH THING AS A SUBJUNCTIVE AORIST. That is just plain ignorance.


And, there is NO SUCH THING as a "middle person". There is, however, a "middle voice", but apparently you have no knowledge of Greek grammar.

your errors with Greek grammar sink your boat. Obviously you have no idea what you are talking about.

I'm having none of it. If you "learned" about a "subjunctive aorist" or a "middle person" from Mounce, you need to quit reading him and find an actual scholar.

Did you notice that your post here actually does not address anything in the post you are quoting from in post # 236 linked that shows from the scriptures and the Greek along with all the other posts and scriptures that have been shared with you that there is nothing that you have provided here in this thread, that says we can choose to "depart the faith" and return to unbelief and sin and still receive everlasting life? All you have done in your post here is made accusations and claims in regards to things I am not even talking about or have said which is a little sad as I was only trying to be helpful to you. All you have posted are a lot of your words that disagree with the scriptures and the Greek shared with you without showing why you disagree. Anyhow dear friend you are free to believe as you wish. I will leave that between you and God. However, the scriptures do not teach anywhere that we can depart the faith and return in a life of known unrepentant sin and still receive everlasting life. This teachings as shown through the scriptures already is not biblical *Hebrews 10:26-31.

Take Care.