A Common Assumption Among Catholicism & Protestants

[Thatgirloncfforums]

As Protestants, we criticize Roman Catholic beliefs such a prayer to Mary and the Saints, and Purgatory, also their view of Justification.

Our contention is that Christ has made satisfaction for our sins, once for all, completely. Asking God therefore, to be propitious toward us because of the merits and prayers of the saints, especially Mary is unfounded. Also, we cannot nor we need not think that by our own merits, we can alleviate temporal punishment or increase in virtue.

My question to you is, for this is one of my own personal struggles with Lutheranism: Why are we making the same assumption as Rome?

We come to a different conclusion, ie Jesus Alone, but we are still operating under the same premise about God, namely, that he has to be appeased because justice demands it.

While Christ Alone is more comforting, I struggle with the very baseline that Lutherans, Catholics, Calvinists, Arminianism and many others seem to suppose.

Help.

 

[chevyontheriver]

As Protestants, we criticize Roman Catholic beliefs such a prayer to Mary and the Saints, and Purgatory, also their view of Justification.

Our contention is that Christ has made satisfaction for our sins, once for all, completely. Asking God therefore, to be propitious toward us because of the merits and prayers of the saints, especially Mary is unfounded. Also, we cannot nor we need not think that by our own merits, we can alleviate temporal punishment or increase in virtue.

My question to you is, for this is one of my own personal struggles with Lutheranism: Why are we making the same assumption as Rome?

We come to a different conclusion, ie Jesus Alone, but we are still operating under the same premise about God, namely, that he has to be appeased because justice demands it.

While Christ Alone is more comforting, I struggle with the very baseline that Lutherans, Catholics, Calvinists, Arminianism and many others seem to suppose.

Help.

Can you explain this a bit more?

 

[Mark Quayle]

My question to you is, for this is one of my own personal struggles with Lutheranism: Why are we making the same assumption as Rome?

We come to a different conclusion, ie Jesus Alone, but we are still operating under the same premise about God, namely, that he has to be appeased because justice demands it.

While Christ Alone is more comforting, I struggle with the very baseline that Lutherans, Catholics, Calvinists, Arminianism and many others seem to suppose.

I'm having a hard time seeing what you are talking about: What baseline do we Protestants, particularly, Reformed/Calvinists "seem to suppose"? Why do you think "we are still operating under the premise [that God] has to be appeased [(apparently by our works(?))] because justice demands it."? Justice demands it, true enough, because God is just. Simply that. To appease God, however, has nothing to do with our works, if that is where you were going with that. It has everything to do with Christ's substitution on our behalf.

Or, are you thinking like atheists at this point, who say that if God wanted, all he would have to do is forgive, or like Muslims, who say that if God is merciful he will forgive. Are you thinking his justice doesn't need the scales to balance? Doesn't sound like you; I certainly hope not.

Maybe I'm missing what you are saying...

 

[Pavel Mosko]

My question to you is, for this is one of my own personal struggles with Lutheranism: Why are we making the same assumption as Rome?

Because that is part of the general Western Christian heritage and you got it running as a default unless you do something specific like: become a follower of John Wesley, or invent your own theology by studying the Greek Fathers or maybe getting into the various connotations of energy in the New Testament and make a Protestant version of Palamite Theology.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

I'm having a hard time seeing what you are talking about: What baseline do we Protestants, particularly, Reformed/Calvinists "seem to suppose"? Why do you think "we are still operating under the premise [that God] has to be appeased (apparently by our works(?))

Not by our works but by the work of Christ.

because justice demands it."? Justice demands it, true enough, because God is just. Simply that. To appease God, however, has nothing to do with our works, if that is where you were going with that. It has everything to do with Christ's substitution on our behalf.

Isn't it just to be merciful and forgiving?

Or, are you thinking like atheists at this point, who say that if God wanted, all he would have to do is forgive, or like Muslims, who say that if God is merciful he will forgive. Are you thinking his justice doesn't need the scales to balance? Doesn't sound like you; I certainly hope not.

No. Because that's still thinking of sin in a nonanthropological way. Christ had to die in order for our sins to be removed from us, because sin isn't external to us, it is a mode of being.

Maybe I'm missing what you are saying...

I feel like punishing sinners does not remove sin from them. It only makes them feel unworthy. I don't think that there is a 'balance' to the universe as it relates to God, but maybe there is.[/QUOTE]

 

[Mark Quayle]

Because that is part of the general Western Christian heritage and you got it running as a default unless you do something specific like: become a follower of John Wesley, or invent your own theology by studying the Greek Fathers or maybe getting into the various connotations of energy in the New Testament and make a Protestant version of Palamite Theology.

WHAT "is part of the general Western Christian heritage"?

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

Can you explain this a bit more?

See my response to Mark. Catholics seem to believe that God doesn't just cover our sins because he loves us but he does so in order to appease his own wrath which demands satisfaction or punishment. And that we participate in covering our own sins and the sins of others for the same reason.

Isn't Mary reported as saying, 'I can no longer hold back the arm of my Son?'

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

Can you elaborate on this? Thanks

Because that is part of the general Western Christian heritage and you got it running as a default unless you do something specific like: become a follower of John Wesley, or invent your own theology by studying the Greek Fathers or maybe getting into the various connotations of energy in the New Testament and make a Protestant version of Palamite Theology.

 

[Thatgirloncfforums]

I (Mary) can no longer hold back the arm of my Son --RC

I (Christ) alone am holding back my Father's arm, even my own arm, I am restraining. --Protestants

This is the essential difference I see between the two Faiths. Looking at it from a psychological pov, what child wants to be told that his dad won't hit him because of what his mother or big brother has done? Or that his brother is taking the blows on his behalf and that this somehow demonstrates their common father's love.

 

[chevyontheriver]

See my response to Mark. Catholics seem to believe that God doesn't just cover our sins because he loves us but he does so in order to appease his own wrath which demands satisfaction or punishment. And that we participate in covering our own sins and the sins of others for the same reason.

The idea that God the Father needed to punish the eternal Son of the Father is NOT a Catholic idea. The whole 'punishment' thing with respect to the redeeming work of Jesus is alien. It may be an offshoot of Anselmian theology, but I'm doubting it is simple Anselmianism. Jesus saved us by a sweet smelling oblation, an act of obedience, something pleasing to the Father. And our coming around, our putting on Christ, is also an act of obedience. Sure, the wages of sin is death. Sure we have earned the 'punishment' of eternal alienation from God by our own choices. But our coming to Christ doesn't mean Jesus paid the price in being even briefly damned for our sake. That's Calvinism, or a subset of Calvinism. Jesus paid the price in obedience and God was pleased with Jesus. Not hating on Jesus. And not hating on us either. Actually not even hating on sinners but loving them even in their freedom to be alienated from Him.

Isn't Mary reported as saying, 'I can no longer hold back the arm of my Son?'

Not sure. I don't get in to Marian apparitions so much. Really only Akita, which is scary enough for me without going farther. But even there, the idea would be to be faithful. We do a lot of reparations for the evil that is done in the world but at some point I expect evil to overwhelm the world and then God may step in to shorten the anguish of the saints. But who knows. Be faithful. Pray. Watch.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Not by our works but by the work of Christ.

So, if I follow you here, this is the baseline of protestantism? I thought you were saying Protestantism at its baseline is the same as Rome.

Isn't it just to be merciful and forgiving?

Sin is a crime against God, and therefore also, cosmic treason, against all that is his. Justice is more than mere forgiveness. Justice balances the scales. Sets wrong back right. Sin is an infinite wrong, against infinite God. The cost is death, not mere earthly (temporal) punishment.

No. Because that's still thinking of sin in a nonanthropological way. Christ had to die in order for our sins to be removed from us, because sin isn't external to us, it is a mode of being.

There's a certain truth to the idea of sin being a 'mode of being'. But it is also deeds, thoughts and intents.

Sin is against GOD. By comparison, what we do to each other (anthropological) doesn't even compute. David said, after all the horrible things he did, "Against you only have I sinned."

I feel like punishing sinners does not remove sin from them. It only makes them feel unworthy. I don't think that there is a 'balance' to the universe as it relates to God, but maybe there is.

True that; punishing, done here in this temporal existence, or later, in the Lake of Fire —neither one removes the sin. Only Christ's substitution does that. He bore our penalty.

The 'balance' to the universe has to do with the sin being killed, thrown into the Lake of Fire. This involves the sinner, or the substitute.

 

[mikeforjesus]

I believe you don’t need saints to obtain grace that you may be saved bible says not to intrude in things not seen and to hold fast to head but they are helpers those who are really saints to help you when you struggle to increase your faith but you don’t need them as psalm 103:21-22 says they do work for God to help but all who go to do God will to help others

you don’t pray to them but you honour them in your heart that they pray for you and God may help you because why would God help those who do not love those who really loved God and others who are really saints. If you may doubt their love for you even though you believed them good then you will lose faith in God and if you get wrong image of those who are really saints which there is no real evidence for how others described them such as St Mary and speak badly about them then you will sin against God and you are required to honour them or it is a sin as they love God to tell others to or you are sinning not helping make peace with them so you are to do so that they may pray for you

Psalm 103:21-22
21 Bless the LORD, all you His hosts,
You ministers of His, who do His pleasure.
22 Bless the LORD, all His works,
In all places of His dominion

Hebrews 1:14 Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to minister for those who will inherit salvation ?

 

[Pavel Mosko]

Can you elaborate on this? Thanks

Cultural heritage carries over like the Law of inertia (Objects in motion tend to stay in motion, objects at rest tend to stay at rest).

 

[Paidiske]

We come to a different conclusion, ie Jesus Alone, but we are still operating under the same premise about God, namely, that he has to be appeased because justice demands it.

Even in the Christian west, this is only one possible way (among several) of viewing atonement. If you find it unhelpful - and many do - I suggest exploring other views.

 

[Pavel Mosko]

WHAT "is part of the general Western Christian heritage"?

The General aspect of conceiving things Justification in terms of forensics / legal terms. That comes from the Latin heritage that is very legal minded. Even though saint Paul uses those kind of terms in certain epistles etc. Eastern Orthodox theologians would not assume that God actually thinks in those terms like various western Theologians do, they would say those are metaphors to help us understand.

This article describes things pretty well
Ancestral Versus Original Sin | St. Mary Orthodox Church of Central Square in Cambridge, Massachusetts

 

[Mark Quayle]

The General aspect of conceiving things Justification in terms of forensics / legal terms. That comes from the Latin heritage that is very legal minded. Even though saint Paul uses those kind of terms in certain epistles etc. Eastern Orthodox theologians would not assume that God actually thinks in those terms like various western Theologians do, they would say those are metaphors to help us understand.

This article describes things pretty well
Ancestral Versus Original Sin | St. Mary Orthodox Church of Central Square in Cambridge, Massachusetts

I understand that. What I'm asking is WHAT 'thatgirl...' was referring to, that you try to explain to her. At one point she is saying Protestants disagree with Rome and in the next she says it is the same as Rome.

 

[public hermit]

Why are we making the same assumption as Rome?

I do think the Reformation carried Anselm's substitutionary theory to it's full expression in the West. I also agree that it's about useless, especially when the emphasis is on punishment or appeasement. There's nothing left for an angry God to forgive. The spiritual life is not really necessary since God has been appeased. It's not a very helpful theory, imo.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I do think the Reformation carried Anselm's substitutionary theory to it's full expression in the West. I also agree that it's about useless, especially when the emphasis is on punishment or appeasement. There's nothing left for an angry God to forgive. The spiritual life is not really necessary since God has been appeased. It's not a very helpful theory, imo.

Why are we making the same assumption as Rome?

WHAT is this "same assumption" that we are making "as Rome" did/does? I don't get this.

 

[public hermit]

WHAT is this "same assumption" that we are making "as Rome" did/does? I don't get this.

Isn't it the idea, going back particularly to Anselm, that God must be appeased, satisfaction made? It's like God is a feudal lord. What we owe God is more than we can give, so God satisfies God's self.

 

[d taylor]

As Protestants, we criticize Roman Catholic beliefs such a prayer to Mary and the Saints, and Purgatory, also their view of Justification.

Our contention is that Christ has made satisfaction for our sins, once for all, completely. Asking God therefore, to be propitious toward us because of the merits and prayers of the saints, especially Mary is unfounded. Also, we cannot nor we need not think that by our own merits, we can alleviate temporal punishment or increase in virtue.

My question to you is, for this is one of my own personal struggles with Lutheranism: Why are we making the same assumption as Rome?

We come to a different conclusion, ie Jesus Alone, but we are still operating under the same premise about God, namely, that he has to be appeased because justice demands it.

While Christ Alone is more comforting, I struggle with the very baseline that Lutherans, Catholics, Calvinists, Arminianism and many others seem to suppose.

Help.

Basically most all churches (catholics and protestants) really when looked at what they are saying, are all actually believing in salvation received by faith plus some action.

But the Bible states that to receive God free gift of Eternal Life, a person must simply trust in The Messiah for Eternal Life, believing that Jesus is who He says He is.

That is, the promised Messiah from the prophecies of The Tanakh and believing this, a person trust in The Messiah for God's free gift of Eternal Life.

As for sin, Jesus took away the sin of the world and the world consist of believers and unbelievers. Sin is not a factor in determining a persons final destiny.

But what is, is has a person trusted in The Messiah for Eternal Life. Mary, Paul, Peter, John, Moses, or any other person from the Bible has no bearing on a person and them receiving Eternal Life.