Preterism-phony as a Ford Corvette

[Hammster]

He will come on the clouds when He returns. Your scenario is imagination.

He came on the clouds like in Isaiah 19.

 

[jgr]

BBRRAAAAPP !

If you're willing to retract your absurd claim that the commentators' citations of Josephus were not true because they did not explicitly declare them to be true, then we can resume rational dialogue.

Otherwise, your posts are false.
Because you do not explicitly declare them to be true.
Unless you consider yourself exempt from your own diktats.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

2 Peter 3:10

"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up."

God could only burn certain things or many things can be burned up as collateral damage. There are several places in Revelation where the water is turned to blood or made into a non-potable substance. This time of GT will leave the earth nearly uninhabitable in many places.

What kind of elements do you think Peter is talking about? You can find what it means and how it's used here. Strong's Greek: 4747. στοιχεῖον (stoicheion) -- one of a row, hence a letter (of the alphabet), by ext. the elements (of knowledge)
As to physical elements, the most abundant elements in the universe are hydrogen(73%) and helium(25%) with melting points of -259 and -269 respectively.
In Peters first letter (1 Peter 4:7), he told them the end of all things was near. Was he wrong?

 

[3 Resurrections]

And the "millenium" will be Jesus' reign on earth for 1K years after his return

The millennium of Revelation 20:5 ends or is "finished" with the "FIRST Resurrection" taking place. That was the one "Christ the FIRST-fruits participated in (AD 33), along with the Matthew 27:52-53 "remnant of the dead who came to life again". Your chronology is off, robycop3, although you have the conditions correct of both mortals and a group of immortal, resurrected saints inhabiting the earth together at that time back in AD 33.

 

[robycop3]

He came on the clouds like in Isaiah 19.

No, He hasn't yet come back visible & physically yet.
Jesus is here SPIRITUALLY whenever/wherever 2 or more are gathered in His name, as He said He'd be. But His physical, visible return is yet future.

 

[robycop3]

If you're willing to retract your absurd claim that the commentators' citations of Josephus were not true because they did not explicitly declare them to be true, then we can resume rational dialogue.

Otherwise, your posts are false.
Because you do not explicitly declare them to be true.
Unless you consider yourself exempt from your own diktats.

Please learn the difference between repeat and affirm.

 

[robycop3]

The millennium of Revelation 20:5 ends or is "finished" with the "FIRST Resurrection" taking place. That was the one "Christ the FIRST-fruits participated in (AD 33), along with the Matthew 27:52-53 "remnant of the dead who came to life again". Your chronology is off, robycop3, although you have the conditions correct of both mortals and a group of immortal, resurrected saints inhabiting the earth together at that time back in AD 33.

Know what "Bah! Humbug!" means?
The millenium won't begin til Jesus returns. Scripture makes that clear.

 

[Hammster]

No, He hasn't yet come back visible & physically yet.
Jesus is here SPIRITUALLY whenever/wherever 2 or more are gathered in His name, as He said He'd be. But His physical, visible return is yet future.

I’m not sure how you are misunderstanding my point. I’ll try repeating it so that maybe you read what I am actually writing. His coming on the clouds is like Isaiah 19.


The oracle concerning Egypt.
Behold, the Lord is riding on a swift cloud and is about to come to Egypt;
The idols of Egypt will tremble at His presence,
And the heart of the Egyptians will melt within them.
— Isaiah 19:1

 

[3 Resurrections]

The millenium won't begin til Jesus returns. Scripture makes that clear.

That is false. Scripture in Revelation 20:5 makes it abundantly clear that the millennium comes to an end and is "finished" when the "First resurrection" takes place. That "First resurrection" has always belonged to "Christ the First-fruits". He and the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints (that "remnant of the dead") composed that "First resurrection" found in Revelation 20:5. What part of "First" do you not understand?
You are confusing Christ's "First resurrection" event with the last resurrection at the close of human history. There can't be a "First" resurrection unless there is at least one or more of them to follow.

 

[jgr]

Please learn the difference between repeat and affirm.

Do you agree that repeat is a synonym of affirm, as the link I posted shows?

 

[jgr]

Please learn the difference between repeat and affirm.

In this post, you claimed:

"Festus, and especially Florus, were largely responsible for inflaming Jewish unrest..."

What is your source for that information? Where did you read it?

 

[3 Resurrections]

Judah was not truly indy as it is now,

This is also false. The numismatic records for the coins issued at the beginning of the Zealot rebellion in AD 66 have the Aramaic inscription "Year 1 to the freedom of the Jewish people.", or "Year 2..." etc.

You personally may not consider this as an independent nation of Israel operating, but the people of the time certainly thought so, and left proof of this in the coins they issued at the time after they had overthrown their oppressive Roman governors, and had taken over both the Roman fortress of Antonia in Jerusalem, and Rome-occupied Masada in AD 66.

This was definitely the Scarlet Beast kingdom of Revelation 17 arising to power once again, which would lead everyone in the nation to marvel at their independent nation of Israel coming to life again when the Zealots had cast off the Roman empire's control of their country. "And they that dwell on the earth" (tes ges - the land of Israel) "shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is." (Revelation 17:8).

 

[Spiritual Jew]

And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
— Matthew 24:31

Don’t assume that this is all past tense.

What do you mean? Doesn't your interpretation of Matthew 24:34 dictate that everything Jesus described prior to that, including the gathering of the elect, had to be fulfilled when "this generation" passed away, which you believe occurred in 70 AD?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Paul said the man of sin would sit in it. And I believe you know Paul was not one who wrote symbolically much at all, if any, especially to gentiles such as the Thessalonians were.
Scripture points to ONE MAN as the beast/antichrist, & Revelation indicates he will have a miracle-working false prophet as his deputy. That's found from daniel to Rev. 20 where this man & his deputy will be cast alive into hell. And, since the AOD was not done in the old temple, there will be a new one that it'll be done in. And all that is LITERAL.[/quote]You have yet to give any kind of convincing explanation for how a future physical temple could possibly be something Paul would have called "the temple of God". This is a MAJOR weakness in your interpretation of 2 Thess 2, but you just want to gloss over that instead of taking the time to consider how it's even possible for your interpretation to be correct.

 

[Hammster]

What do you mean? Doesn't your interpretation of Matthew 24:34 dictate that everything Jesus described prior to that, including the gathering of the elect, had to be fulfilled when "this generation" passed away, which you believe occurred in 70 AD?

The angles were sent forth. They are gathering. I’m not sure what the problem is.

 

[Ed Parenteau]

But JESUS said if the trib wasn't cut short, then NO FLESH(man or animal) would survive. So, why couldn't it be literal?

Because nothing could survive that. To answer your question fully, I would need to know what you believe comes next.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The end of the age is the end of the old covenant. The proof that it was really over was the destruction of the temple. It was judgement for apostate Israel.

When He said, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.
— Hebrews 8:13

This is a terrible translation of that verse. First, it says "He has made the first obsolete, which means it was already made obsolete before that was written. But, then it says "whatever is becoming obsolete...", which contradicts what was just stated before that. Whatever NASB translator translated that verse apparently couldn't make up their mind if the old covenant was obsolete at that point or not. It is a terrible translation of that verse because it creates a contradiction. It was either already obsolete at that time or it wasn't. It was. And something that is obsolete cannot still be in effect!

When it talks about it being ready to disappear, it's not saying that it's still in effect and is about to no longer be in effect. The fact that it was already obsolete means it was no longer in effect. But, the traces of it were still around because the temple was still standing. So, what was soon going to disappear was any traces of the existence of the obsolete, no longer in effect old covenant that was immediately replaced by the new covenant upon Christ's death.

The old covenant ended at the cross which is when the new covenant was established! How can you not know this? It is an insult to Christ and what He accomplished on the cross to claim that His death did not put an end to the old covenant. The two covenants were not in effect at the same time! That is nonsense.

Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

This passage makes it clear that "the handwriting of ordinances" of the old covenant were taken out of the way and nailed to His cross! How can you think the old covenant was still in effect after His death in light of a passage like this?

And what about the veil of the temple being torn in two? Why can't you discern that this showed that the old covenant with its temple worship, rituals and animal sacrifices was over and was replaced by the new covenant established by Christ's blood?

If the old covenant was still in effect after Christ's death then why did Paul scold the Galatians for performing works of the old covenant law (Galatians 3)?

Jesus said that the contrast between this age and the age to come was not the contrast between a supposed old covenant age and new covenant age, but rather between this temporal age and the eternal age that is yet to come.

Luke 20:34 Jesus replied, “The people of this age marry and are given in marriage. 35 But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, 36 and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels. They are God’s children, since they are children of the resurrection.

This age is marked by temporal things such as getting married. Obviously, marriage doesn't last forever because we all die. The age to come, in contrast, will be eternal things, which do not include marriage. The age to come is eternal because in that age "they can no longer die". And Jesus indicated that the age to come would arrive with the resurrection of the dead which has not yet occurred. That will occur at Christ's return at the last trumpet (1 Cor 15:22-23;50-54, 1 Thess 4:13-17). The eternal new heavens and new earth will be ushered in when He returns (2 Peter 3:10-13).

 

[3 Resurrections]

The angles were sent forth. They are gathering. I’m not sure what the problem is.

Yes, it is true that angels are on a continual basis gathering the spirits of the righteous on a case-by-case basis as those saints pass through physical death But this is not quite the same context of what is under discussion. As to one particular occasion of "gathering His elect" done by the reaping angels, Christ told His disciples this was going to take place in "the completion of the age" (which was in AD 70). On that occasion, the "wheat and tares" were separated, and the "wheat" was gathered into the "barn". This was a group event - not the other case-by-case gathering of the spirits of the righteous at their physical death.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The angles were sent forth. They are gathering. I’m not sure what the problem is.

The problem is that you're not thinking this through carefully enough.

If the angels started gathering the elect back then and are still gathering the elect now then how can you say that "this generation" is already passed?

Matthew 24:34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

"All these things" would include the gathering of the elect. If the elect are still being gathered then this generation has not yet passed away.

And, I believe that Jesus implied that this generation would pass away when heaven and earth pass away, which has not yet occurred.

34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

Beyond all that, you're not recognizing that the gathering of the elect is a one time event which Paul wrote about here:

1 Thessalonians 4:14 For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

 

[3 Resurrections]

This is a terrible translation of that verse. First, it says "He has made the first obsolete, which means it was already made obsolete before that was written. But, then it says "whatever is becoming obsolete...", which contradicts what was just stated before that. Whatever NASB translator translated that verse apparently couldn't make up their mind if the old covenant was obsolete at that point or not. It is a terrible translation of that verse because it creates a contradiction. It was either already obsolete at that time or it wasn't. It was. And something that is obsolete cannot still be in effect!

When it talks about it being ready to disappear, it's not saying that it's still in effect and is about to no longer be in effect. The fact that it was already obsolete means it was no longer in effect. But, the traces of it were still around because the temple was still standing. So, what was soon going to disappear was any traces of the existence of the obsolete, no longer in effect old covenant that was immediately replaced by the new covenant upon Christ's death.

The old covenant ended at the cross which is when the new covenant was established! How can you not know this? It is an insult to Christ and what He accomplished on the cross to claim that His death did not put an end to the old covenant. The two covenants were not in effect at the same time

Absolutely true. You can't have the Old and New covenants operating at the same time. Once that Old Covenant high priesthood was replaced by Christ the new deathless high priest, the law was changed, as Hebrews 7:12 stated. The mere fact that the Hebrews 8:13 verse says those OC elements were "decaying" means they were DEAD and rotting. The Jews of that day were just refusing to "take out the trash", so to speak, and it was still lying around getting in the way.