Christian Universalism. What's not to like?

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Carl Emerson

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Are you claiming the Bible is NOT the "Word of God"?
Are you questioning the direction of the Holy Spirit in translation?
Are you claiming that God would allow such a thing to happen?
Looks like that saw cuts both ways too.

Saint Steven said:
Here's what "the Word of God" says.

Matthew 25:46 - Young's Literal Translation
And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'

Look at the parallel translations of this verse and tell me that the majority hold to the translation you present...
 
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Saint Steven

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I really do not disagree with you. All I'm saying is that love has power, like a tug that morally (not forcibly) drags people to change their attitude.

Are you familiar with Abelard's Moral Influence Theory of Atonement? The cross does not only show humans the true nature of God's love, it also has power that is sufficient to pull us in and atone.

I've already explained and analyzed the Greek words applied. Love has power, this is all I'm trying to say.
Some speak of those who "hate God". (getting what they deserve)

I say, if someone hates God, it's because they haven't actually met him yet.
 
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Saint Steven

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Look at the parallel translations of this verse and tell me that the majority hold to the translation you present...
Doesn't being a Christian mean NOT going along with the majority?
Since when is the majority right? You know better than that. (I thought)

I already told you that the books were cooked. Do you really think I will buy the majority reading now? - lol
 
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Cormack

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Some speak of those who "hate God". (getting what they deserve)

I think like everything, there’s a spectrum of intensity around hell and punishment. Posters like @Carl Emerson have (in my opinion) very moderate and commendable views that lay the burden of being lost or damned at the foot of the sinful creature. The only reason I wouldn’t hold to that view myself is that it’s not believable in light of how people behave.

People don’t have the sort of resolve necessary to hold onto a hatred or an entity with God forever, not without some kind of supernatural intervention to hold them in that state. A sort of intervention God wouldn’t act out.

Anyway, there are hell extremists who want the fire and the burning flesh and the wrath of God poured out onto people forever, then there are moderate views.

Maybe the moderate views are more dangerous because they hide the moral ugliness of eternal suffering.

Moderation helps hide and confuse our moral sensibilities and soft sell eternal suffering, rereading those 3 moral ideas that I shared earlier are still roughly true on the moderate view.

At least the out and proud believer in eternal suffering in hellfire has exposed the belief in all of its “glory.”
 
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Saint Steven

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I think like everything, there’s a spectrum of intensity around hell and punishment. Posters like @Carl Emerson have (in my opinion) very moderate and commendable views that lay the burden of being lost or damned at the foot of the sinful creature. The only reason I wouldn’t hold to that view myself is that it’s not believable in light of how people behave.

People don’t have the sort of resolve necessary to hold onto a hatred or an entity with God forever, not without some kind of supernatural intervention to hold them in that state. A sort of intervention God wouldn’t act out.

Anyway, there are hell extremists who want the fire and the burning flesh and the wrath of God poured out onto people forever, then there are moderate views.

Maybe the moderate views are more dangerous because they hide the moral ugliness of eternal suffering.

At least the out and proud believer in eternal suffering in hellfire has exposed the belief in all of its “glory.”
Good points.

We know that humans in prison want nothing more than to get OUT of prison. They will cooperate for the most part toward that end. I imagine the same would be true for corrective restoration. Cooperation would make it go quicker. But hey, take all the time you need. - lol

And yes, we see all sorts of soft-peddling on eternal punishment. It was reduced to "eternal separation from God" in the church I grew up in. (if mentioned at all)
 
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Andrewn

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Evaluating what the English word means doesn't really shed light on the question, especially as the Greek word used is one that exclusively relates to time so the proposed alternative reading is not present within the original language. Now, that is not to say the Greek word necessarily entails infinity as the word marks time based upon content rather than duration.
It is true that evaluating the meaning of the English word "eternal" doesn't shed light on the meaning of "aionios." I only introduced an analysis of "eternal" in an attempt to absolve Bible translators of error and hopefully to guide those who exclusively rely on English translations and have no access or no aptitude for Greek terms.

In a previous post, I mentioned that "aionios" refers to "quality" rather than quantity / duration. I'm not sure if this is the same thing you mean by "the word marks time based upon content rather than duration." If so, then we're in agreement.

To say that eternal perdition ends, would entail that etternal life ends since these two are presented in parallel as opposites. So while it is conceivable based upon the semantics of the word for the punishment to eventually end, it is not justifiable to infer that those who go to eternal perdition will one day transition into eternal life, as both are concurrent terminal states.
Life and perdition are indeed presented in parallel. Both have the "quality" of belonging to the Age to Come. The pericope of the sheep and goats does not tell us about the "duration" of either. We conclude that Life of the Age to Come is endless from passages such as Luk 20:36.

But we do not know the duration of damnation of the age to come. It is conceivably different from one person to another. The earth is estimated to be 4.54 billion years old and I have no way of knowing what will happen in eternity.
 
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Carl Emerson

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People don’t have the sort of resolve necessary to hold onto a hatred or an entity with God forever, not without some kind of supernatural intervention to hold them in that state. A sort of intervention God wouldn’t act out.

Romans 9

14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? Far from it! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I have mercy, and I will show compassion to whomever I show compassion.” 16 So then, it does not depend on the person who wants it nor the one who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very reason I raised you up, in order to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the earth.” 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Doesn't being a Christian mean NOT going along with the majority?
Since when is the majority right? You know better than that. (I thought)

I already told you that the books were cooked. Do you really think I will buy the majority reading now? - lol

So you think the majority translators conspired to modify Gods Word to deceive ???

And God sat back and let it happen... !!!
 
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Saint Steven

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Life and perdition are indeed presented in parallel. Both have the "quality" of belonging to the Age to Come. The pericope of the sheep and goats does not tell us about the "duration" of either. We conclude that Life of the Age to Come is endless from passages such as Luk 20:36. But we do not know the duration of damnation of the age to come. It is conceivably different from one person to another?
This is where presuppositions come into play. IMHO
The text reads according to our predispositions. And it takes quite an event to shake us out of that mindset.

Therefore, let our posts be "eventful". - lol
 
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Saint Steven

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So you think the majority translators conspired to modify Gods Word to deceive ???

And God sat back and let it happen... !!!
Absolutely.
Have you no knowledge of the history of the Church that gave us our Bible? It wasn't called the Dark Ages for nothing.

The modern translations are built on the textual and lexicon foundations of the Western/Latin Church. The sociopolitical aims were woven into the translations. The libido dominandi (lust to dominate) was built into everything they did.

The same free will we have was applied to the Bible. Of course God would allow it. The same God that allowed Young to make his translation. (which you marginalized as not being "majority") If you really believe God is sovereign over the Bible, how did this happen? Same goes for the JW and SDA translations. Don't make an idol out of a book.
 
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Saint Steven

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... My belief is slightly different from typical UR in that I confess ignorance of whether annihilation can be a terminal state for some who absolutely have no goodness in their personalities, who may not have any humanity left after purification. ...
The Apostle Paul set that bar, I believe, when he informed us that he was the chief of sinners. Since Jesus went after him, who would he NOT go after? Jesus is the good shepherd that leaves the ninety-nine to go after the one. And there is rejoicing in heaven when he returns with them. (carries them back)
 
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Cormack

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I totally agree with judicial hardening, @Carl Emerson. God cuts people off in their rebellion at some points in the Bible, and He remembers His promises and revisits people at some other points in the Bible. Pharaoh is said to harden his own heart in the Bible too.

So I’ve never seen that judicial hardening as being something effectually done to people like a power from on high, it’s not imposed heart hardening.

Rather the creature sends itself on a collision course with God. A course I don’t believe we creatures could sustain nor that God would want to sustain. He wants all to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

I’m not a determinist and I assume you aren’t either.

The overall point of Romans nine, ten and eleven however is that Gods hardening is done for a purpose, namely the ingrafting of the gentiles (you and I.)

In the same way, Gods prophets were some of the instrumental means to harden the heart of the people of Israel, preparing their heart to reject their messiah not so that He can doom them, but rather so He could save.

Paul holds out hope for Israel in Romans despite their own hearts being judicially hardened during Christ’s ministry.

Romans 9 isn’t an easy section of scripture to understand, however, you’re a reasonable man who I wouldn’t think to lecture on what this scripture or that scripture means. You know there are other sincere, scholarly robust views out there.

We’ve all read the Bible, some of us read it annually or on some kind of schedule, so rather than lecture anyone on what the scriptures mean, I’d rather say I hope my understanding of the scripture could someday be more compatible with the beliefs you currently hold.
 
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Hmm

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I totally agree with judicial hardening ... God cuts people off in their rebellion at some points in the Bible, and He remembers His promises and revisits people at some other points in the Bible. Pharaoh is said to harden his own heart in the Bible too.

So I’ve never seen that judicial hardening as being something effectually done to people like a power from on high, it’s not imposed heart hardening.

Rather the creature sends itself on a collision course with God. A course I don’t believe we creatures could sustain nor that God would want to sustain. He wants all to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

I’m not a determinist and I assume you aren’t either.

The overall point of Romans nine, ten and eleven however is that Gods hardening is done for a purpose, namely the ingrafting of the gentiles (you and I.)

In the same way, Gods prophets were some of the instrumental means to harden the heart of the people of Israel, preparing their heart to reject their messiah not so that He can doom them, but rather so He could save.

Paul holds out hope for Israel in Romans despite their own hearts being judicially hardened during Christ’s ministry.

Romans 9 isn’t an easy section of scripture to understand, however, you’re a reasonable man who I wouldn’t think to lecture on what this scripture or that scripture means. You know there are other sincere, scholarly robust views out there.

We’ve all read the Bible, some of us read it annually or on some kind of schedule, so rather than lecture anyone on what the scriptures mean, I’d rather say I hope my understanding of the scripture could someday be more compatible with the beliefs you currently hold.

I have found so often that Dr Thomas Talbott has something useful to say and he says this about the hardening of hearts in "The Inescapable Love of God", chapter 5, basically that, yes, God does effectively “blind” people’s eyes to the truth but only for a while and always for his ultimately salvific purposes:

"By literally shutting sinners up to their disobedience and requiring them to endure the consequences of their own rebellion, God reveals the self-defeating nature of evil and shatters the illusions that make evil choices possible in the first place.
This extract from earlier in the chapter might help to explain this (my emphases):
… Paul explicitly states that God’s severity towards the disobedient, his judgment of sin, even his willingness to blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the disobedient, are expressions of a more fundamental quality, that of mercy, which is itself an expression of his purifying love. In Romans 11:7 he thus writes: “What then? Israel failed to obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened” (or blinded). He then asks, “have they [the nonremnant who were hardened or blinded] stumbled so as to fall?” and his answer is most emphatic: “By no means!” (11:11). By the end of the following verse, he is already speaking of their full inclusion: “Now if their stumbling means riches for the world, and if their defeat means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!” (11:12). And three verses later he is hinting that their acceptance will mean “life from the dead” (9:15). He then generalizes the whole thing: God blinded the eyes and hardened the hearts of the unbelieving Jews, we discover, as a means by which all of Israel might be saved (Romans 11:25-26) — all of Israel including those who were blinded and hardened. There is simply no way, so far as I can tell, to escape the universalistic implication here. The specific point that Paul makes in Romans 11 is this: Though the unbelieving Jews were in some sense “enemies of God” (11:28), they nonetheless became “disobedient in order that they too may now receive mercy” (11:31-NIV). But the general principle (of which the specific point is but an instance) is even more glorious: “For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all” (11:32— Talbott’s emphasis).
According to Paul, therefore, God is always and everywhere merciful, but we sometimes experience his mercy (or purifying love) as severity, judgment, punishment. When we live a life of obedience, we experience his mercy as kindness; when we live a life of disobedience, we experience it as severity (see 11:22). Paul himself calls this a mystery (11:25) and admits that God’s ways are, in just this respect, “inscrutable” and “unsearchable” (11:33)."

Btw, this chapter and chapters 9 and 11 can be downloaded for free from his website at Thomas Talbott- The Inescapable Love of God - 2nd Edition

Edited to actually put my emphases in.
 
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Andrewn

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I read scripture prayerfully for over 5 years in a stretch without input from commentaries or books
This is exactly the problem. You believe that only your interpretation is inspired by God.

Mmmm... God being 'slandered' by His own Word ???
No, He is being 'slandered' by your interpretation.

Are you making a case for Eternal Life coming to an end?
No, Jesus said, “They are no longer subject to death, for they are like angels; and they are the children of God because they are children of the resurrection” (Luk 20:36).

Matthew 25:46 New American Standard Bible 46 These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
The meaning of “eternal” has been explained to you.

Why is Hell being portrayed as a place where God administers punishment rather than simply man suffering the consequences of refusing Love and therefore choosing a loveless destiny along with like minded loveless individuals. This in itself is a place of torment yet not of God' doing. In this case the suggestion of Hell being contrary to the concept of a Loving God collapses. The suffering then is eternally self chosen and self afflicted.
People may indeed choose a loveless destiny, until they understand God’s love.

Romans 9 14 What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? Far from it! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I have mercy, and I will show compassion to whomever I show compassion.” 16 So then, it does not depend on the person who wants it nor the one who runs, but on God who has mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very reason I raised you up, in order to demonstrate My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed throughout the earth.” 18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
Why ask for an interpretation when you have no respect for commentaries and books?
 
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Cormack

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He then asks, “have they [the nonremnant who were hardened or blinded] stumbled so as to fall?” and his answer is most emphatic: “By no means!” (11:11). By the end of the following verse, he is already speaking of their full inclusion: “Now if their stumbling means riches for the world, and if their defeat means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!” (11:12).

Very popular section between messianic Jews like Dr. Micheal Brown. It’s hope for the Jewish nation despite an ignominious fall from grace due to having rejected the messiah, and yet, there’s hope even for the harden hearted.

You’re a real resource, @Hmm. I think people wanting to know about the restoration of all things couldn’t find many people on this forum more patient and persistent as yourself.
 
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Hmm

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Very popular section between messianic Jews like Dr. Micheal Brown. It’s hope for the Jewish nation despite an ignominious fall from grace due to having rejected the messiah, and yet, there’s hope even for the harden hearted.

You’re a real resource, @Hmm. I think people wanting to know about the restoration of all things couldn’t find many people on this forum more patient and persistent as yourself.

That's very kind of you to say so but, honestly, I'm indebted to all you universalist and hopeful universalist guys for all your posts and threads on the subject, particularly your thread here: Would you prefer it if “Christian universalism” were true?.

I was beginning to despair of all the contradictions I saw in the Bible and the intolerable picture ECT presented of God but the universalist perspective has resolved all these things for me. It's hard to discuss this IRL because most people labour under the same common misapprehensions about Christian universalism that are continually being repeated here so I hope these threads are a useful resource to others who would like to know more about what it actually says. It takes some filtering though!
 
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Saint Steven

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You’re a real resource, @Hmm. I think people wanting to know about the restoration of all things couldn’t find many people on this forum more patient and persistent as yourself.
Yup. He gets my nomination for this year's MVP. (most valuable poster)
"Poster", 'cause we ain't playin'.
 
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Hmm

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Yup. He gets my nomination for this year's MVP. (most valuable poster)
"Poster", 'cause we ain't playin'.

You're too kind but I'll have to decline, however if you change the category to Moral Vacuum Pump I'll gladly accept the nomination because, with all the votes I'll get from this thread, I should easily win :)
 
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Saint Steven

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You're too kind but I'll have to decline, however if you change the category to Moral Vacuum Pump I'll gladly accept the nomination because, with all the votes I'll get from this thread, I should easily win :)
One of the best things about UR is that we got our sense of humor back. Well worth it. - lol
 
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