Freedom or Socialism?

[TheWhat?]

You're about the 4th or 5th person on here I've seen saying "I wanna work at a co-op"...and what they really mean is "I don't want a boss".

There's nothing stopping you, corporations don't invest money against co-ops because they don't have to. You want to work at a co-op....there's nothing stopping you at all except your own fear of failure.

I started my own business. A cooperative requires cooperation, and thus people to cooperate. This requires sufficient public support.

Don't blame others for what you won't do.

Why should I listen to you? You still haven't told me what your incentive is for being oppositional to a freedom that can benefit workers.

 

[Tom 1]

A lot actually: A better detailed explanation here: https://electrical-engineering-port...-in-united-states-and-around-the-world-part-1

Electricities is what comes to mind; a "non-profit" which is simply an extension of government. Where the organization's sole customer is municipalities and power utility is publicly controlled.

Their outages are here on full display: https://www.electricities.com/services/emergency-assistance/outage-map/

This is less a conversation about how power is generated, and more about who pays for it (boiled down, it's a conversation about collectivism versus individualism): https://www.electricities.com/services/emergency-assistance/outage-map/

The first chart shows failures in the US, the last shows that the rate of failures is higher in the US than the rest of the world combined. What was your point here?

 

[Ana the Ist]

They assumed the initial risk. They should be richer than Jeff. Otherwise this whole "initial risk" gambit doesn't make any sense.

Initially he put up his own money, and then got investors. I don't know how much the company grew between the start and investors. He also didn't get all those billions from just Amazon, he also acquired several other businesses.

What I know best though, is that with every post you just make it more obvious that you don't understand how any of this works.

Is that why Jeff uses SO MUCH of it?

What's "so much"?

And why we the taxpayer end up paying our taxes to help them feed themselves?

If you don't want to pay for welfare by all means....vote against welfare.

I won't judge.

Is that why I am helping to keep these people fed from my tax money?

I don't think your taxes feed Bezos' parents.

You don't seem to know much about university diversity equity and inclusion initiatives. Not much association with any universities?

I know when the left says "diversity, equity, and inclusion" they mean "racial quotas".

Is that what you mean? People are racist if they don't meet your preconceived race quotas?

 

[pacomascarot]

Initially he put up his own money, and then got investors.

Like all good captains of industry he started off by getting mommy and daddy to plow a quarter million into his start up. As one does.

What I know best though, is that with every post you just make it more obvious that you don't understand how any of this works.

It's not like YOU do either! LOL! It is highly doubtful you could be a billionaire and if you were you wouldn't be here on CF posting.

If you don't want to pay for welfare by all means....vote against welfare.

Why should I have to pay to help Jeff Bezos because he's incapable of creating a business that can pay its employees a living wage????

I don't think your taxes feed Bezos' parents.

But they DO pay Bezos' workers.

I know when the left says "diversity, equity, and inclusion" they mean "racial quotas".

I see you've given up trying to convince us that "math is racist" is a motive force for Stanford.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I started my own business.

How did that go? How many people do you employ?

Why should I listen to you? You still haven't told me what your incentive is for being oppositional to a freedom that can benefit workers.

I'm not oppositional. You haven't provided one valid reason why you can't start a co-op.

You started a business and I'm assuming that since you want to be in a co-op it isn't a co-op.

Why not? I doubt if you told your employees that they are going to make the same as you and they get to decide how everyone works they would be upset about it.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Like all good captains of industry he started off by

Investing his own money.

It's not like YOU do either! LOL! It is highly doubtful you could be a billionaire and if you were you wouldn't be here on CF posting.

Your example of the "greedy billionaire" had humble beginnings. He had few employees, little capital, but he worked hard. Everyone who invested in his company at the start is a billionaire several times over.

It's hilarious that this was your example.

Why should I have to pay to help Jeff Bezos because he's incapable of creating a business that can pay its employees a living wage????

You don't. Jeff Bezos doesn't take your taxes.

But they DO pay Bezos' workers.

Some of them...sure.

I see you've given up trying to convince us that "math is racist" is a motive force for Stanford.

I don't have to convince anyone. Stanford said it.

 

[TheWhat?]

How did that go? How many people do you employ?




I'm not oppositional. You haven't provided one valid reason why you can't start a co-op.

You started a business and I'm assuming that since you want to be in a co-op it isn't a co-op.

Why not? I doubt if you told your employees that they are going to make the same as you and they get to decide how everyone works they would be upset about it.

Either rudimentary logic is a challenge for you or you're being intentionally oppositional to my stated desire for a potentially beneficial freedom for workers as business owners.

It's not like you've brought anything of substance to the table here. I started by stating my desires for freedoms. We're apparently arguing for no real reason.

Though, it's obvious you have no real intent to support freedoms in America generally if at all.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Either rudimentary logic is a challenge for you or you're being intentionally oppositional to my stated desire for a potentially beneficial freedom for workers as business owners.

That freedom exists. Co-ops exist. You speak like these things don't already exist but they do.

 

[98cwitr]

The first chart shows failures in the US, the last shows that the rate of failures is higher in the US than the rest of the world combined. What was your point here?

Accounting for shear size, I'm not surprised. We have a really big country.

 

[Tom 1]

Accounting for shear size, I'm not surprised. We have a really big country.

Sure but it’s not bigger than the rest of the world. Russia has less power failures than the US.

Europe, as a whole, is bigger than the US and has half the power cuts . That’s 30 odd countries, including some still classifiable as developing nations.

 

[98cwitr]

Sure but it’s not bigger than the rest of the world. Russia has less power failures than the US.

Europe, as a whole, is bigger than the US and has half the power cuts . That’s 30 odd countries, including some still classifiable as developing nations.

Russia has less than half of the US population. Cumulatively, a more fair comparison would be all of Eastern Europe compared to the US.

 

[Clare73]

.

 

[TheWhat?]

That freedom exists. Co-ops exist. You speak like these things don't already exist but they do.

I didn't say they don't exist. They obviously do, though they are very limited. What I said was I want the freedom to collaboratively own and manage the business I work for.

If my business ever takes off to the point that I need to hire others -- chances are that it won't but if it does -- I would want to make it a cooperative because I don't feel right about making my business into an entity that extracts value from employees. But, for that to really happen, in my line of work, I'd most likely need to have a really good idea, like the very few who find good, marketable ideas. In the case that I can't find an idea that I can capitalize on, my labor is still of value and I want to be able to join a cooperative, but I haven't run into one yet. The problem is that there just aren't enough like minded people in America, in my line of work.

I've put a bit of thought into this. That's a freedom I want which I think other workers in my industry could benefit from, but we lack public support and so I lack the freedom, for now. This shouldn't be a problem in and of itself.

 

[pacomascarot]

I would want to make it a cooperative because I don't feel right about making my business into an entity that extracts value from employees.

That doesn't sound like you want to own an AMERICAN business. Take Jeff Bezos for instance. He not only makes money off the backs of his workers he also gets TAXPAYERS to foot the bill for their medical and food costs! Jeff Bezos and the Waltons all have learned how to be the best business people imaginable!

Don't be a loser. Remember: employees are there because you are giving them jobs. Don't let anyone tell you you need them to do anything. You are a job creator which means you are GIVING them employment.

 

[Ana the Ist]

I didn't say they don't exist. They obviously do, though they are very limited. What I said was I want the freedom to collaboratively own and manage the business I work for.

I thought you said you started the business.

If my business ever takes off to the point that I need to hire others -- chances are that it won't but if it does -- I would want to make it a cooperative because I don't feel right about making a business into an entity that extracts value from employees. But, for that to really happen, in my line of work, I'd most likely need to have a really good idea, like the very few who find good, marketable ideas. In the case that I can't find an idea that I can capitalize on, my labor is still of value and I want to be able to join a cooperative, but I haven't run into one yet. The problem is that there just aren't enough like minded people in America, in my line of work.

Ok...so your problem is that guy who owns the business you work for doesn't want a cooperative.

I've put a bit of thought into this. That's a freedom I want, I think other workers in my industry could benefit from, but we lack public support and so I lack the freedom, for now. This shouldn't be a problem in and of itself.

No...you don't lack public support. You lack a good idea, like you already said.

If you had that, and knew how to make that good idea successful, you can make your business any way you want.

What it sounds like you want is to latch onto someone else's successful idea and business and be given an equal share of that business even though you didn't make it yourself.

 

[Ana the Ist]

That doesn't sound like you want to own an AMERICAN business. Take Jeff Bezos for instance. He not only makes money off the backs of his workers he also gets TAXPAYERS to foot the bill for their medical and food costs! Jeff Bezos and the Waltons all have learned how to be the best business people imaginable!

Don't be a loser. Remember: employees are there because you are giving them jobs. Don't let anyone tell you you need them to do anything. You are a job creator which means you are GIVING them employment.

You don't have to give Jeff Bezos a dime. Don't vote to expand welfare programs....vote to cut them.

Then Bezos would have to pay employees more. His model can't move entirely overseas. It's dependent upon warehouses that deliver products quickly...or he would have to leave the US market entirely.

Same for Walmart, McDonald's, and many others.

 

[pacomascarot]

What it sounds like you want is to latch onto someone else's successful idea and business and be given an equal share of that business even though you didn't make it yourself.

That's what happened me with Quibi.

 

[Tom 1]

Russia has less than half of the US population. Cumulatively, a more fair comparison would be all of Eastern Europe compared to the US.

Europe as a whole has around half the number of power cuts compared to the US and is bigger in size and population (population by quite a bit). Chronic supply issues are more of an issue in the US also.

 

[pacomascarot]

You don't have to give Jeff Bezos a dime.

My taxes, however, got to support his workers which means I'm paying him one way or another.

Don't vote to expand welfare programs....vote to cut them.

There are a lot of American Patriots who are working for this glorious day when no American has access to that "social safety net". Gah! Socialism! Ewww!

Then Bezos would have to pay employees more.

That doesn't follow. He could still pay them only a little. It doesn't matter if they are starving or not. America has a long history of this sort of thing prior to the 1940's.

His model can't move entirely overseas.

Alibaba would disagree.

Same for Walmart, McDonald's, and many others.

So if someone is STUCK in America they should be able to take as much advantage of others as they can!

 

[Tom 1]

Cumulatively, a more fair comparison would be all of Eastern Europe compared to the US.

You can compare what you like, the picture is still the same.