Freedom or Socialism?

[pacomascarot]

Is this a joke?

Isn't that the whole point of being a capitalist? I could have sworn that was the highest virtue for those of us who strive to be the best Americans we can be. If I have a way of taking advantage of your need to massively increase my wealth that's what I am supposed to do.

 

[RDKirk]

You think it might have a little to do with using more power because of more productivity.

No, because the power failures have not been caused by a lack of generating capacity.

 

[RDKirk]

Word? Where did they fail to meet regulations and how much were they fined?

Or was everything they did perfectly legal?

Well, in Texas the elected officials are loathe to create regulations, so lots of things are "perfectly legal."

 

[RDKirk]

I think utilities may be regulated in Texas.
Have you checked to see what that had to do with it, if the company was not allowed to raise rates to cover the expensive winterizing, etc., therefore nixing it?

No, Texas deregulated electrical utility rates in 2002. That's why during last winter's outage, some users wound up being charged thousands of dollars for a two-week period in which they didn't even have continuous power.

 

[pacomascarot]

You think it might have a little to do with using more power because of more productivity.

America ranks 6th behind Belgium and Luxembourg.

These Are the Most Productive Countries in the World

 

[Clare73]

Isn't that the whole point of being a capitalist?

Inadequate schooling is showing. . .

I could have sworn that was the highest virtue for those of us who strive to be the best Americans we can be. If I have a way of taking advantage of your need to massively increase my wealth that's what I am supposed to do.

 

[pacomascarot]

Inadequate schooling is showing. . .

Hmmm, how do you arrive at that point? We have a multibillionaire (Jeff Bezos) who has profited handsomely from the COVID pandemic yet his employees are urinating in bottles so they don't lose any precious seconds. Meanwhile Jeff is flying to the edge of space on his personal spaceship.

I'd say that Jeff B. wins Capitalism wouldn't you?

How about billionaire Elon Musk who, in a snit, recently moved his corporate headquarters to Texas because of better tax structure (ie less). Why pay for infrastructure when some sucker will give you a price break even if you turn your back on the state that gave you your entire career?

This isn't a modern idea. Famous "robber barons" of the 19th century hired armed gunmen to slaughter labor strikers and then made up for it by paying for a few libraries around the country.

You don't get really wealthy until you can look another human in the eye and NOT SEE A HUMAN LIFE but rather a means to increase your wallet girth.

Did I miss anything?

 

[Clare73]

Hmmm, how do you arrive at that point? We have a multibillionaire (Jeff Bezos) who has profited handsomely from the COVID pandemic yet his employees are urinating in bottles so they don't lose any precious seconds. Meanwhile Jeff is flying to the edge of space on his personal spaceship.

I'd say that Jeff B. wins Capitalism wouldn't you?

How about billionaire Elon Musk who, in a snit, recently moved his corporate headquarters to Texas because of better tax structure (ie less). Why pay for infrastructure when some sucker will give you a price break even if you turn your back on the state that gave you your entire career?

This isn't a modern idea. Famous "robber barons" of the 19th century hired armed gunmen to slaughter labor strikers and then made up for it by paying for a few libraries around the country.

You don't get really wealthy until you can look another human in the eye and NOT SEE A HUMAN LIFE but rather a means to increase your wallet girth.

Did I miss anything?

I note your judgment of the barrel by a few, ignoring the rest of the barrel.

Better education is in order.

 

[pacomascarot]

I note your judgment of the barrel by a few, ignoring the rest of the barrel.

The barrel of multibillionaires is relatively small.

But honestly if you look at America you don't have to look at the billionaires! Just look at healthcare for instance. Insulin therapy for diabetes was invented quite a long time ago yet today in the US insulin is still very expensive (many times more than in other countries). That's a great example of people seeing a "need" that is literally life and death and capitalizing on it in the extreme.

Easily half of all the "blockbuster drugs" that are developed in America come from NIH funding, meaning you and I and regular folks pay for the development. The drugs are then picked up by major drug manufacturers who go on to ramp up the costs even though they didn't really do as much to develop the drug and the same people (you and I) end up paying the drug manufacturer a ton more money because we want the health benefits. It's near perfect capitalism. Decrease opex and increase profits.

That sounds like America to me.

 

[Clare73]

The barrel of multibillionaires is relatively small.

But honestly if you look at America you don't have to look at the billionaires! Just look at healthcare for instance. Insulin therapy for diabetes was invented quite a long time ago yet today in the US insulin is still very expensive (many times more than in other countries). That's a great example of people seeing a "need" that is literally life and death and capitalizing on it in the extreme.

Easily half of all the "blockbuster drugs" that are developed in America come from NIH funding, meaning you and I and regular folks pay for the development. The drugs are then picked up by major drug manufacturers who go on to ramp up the costs even though they didn't really do as much to develop the drug and the same people (you and I) end up paying the drug manufacturer a ton more money because we want the health benefits. It's near perfect capitalism. Decrease opex and increase profits.

That sounds like America to me.

It may not be long before you will have relief in single payer and inferior care.

 

[pacomascarot]

It may not be long before you will have relief in single payer and inferior care.

Not me! I love my insurance! Just last year I had a severe medical emergency and I called my insurance company up to find out if they would cover the treatment. They said the would but since it was out of network they couldn't tell me how much they would cover. They said that they would know how much they would cover once they got the bill (after I'd paid it).

That's why the insurance-based system is PERFECT! I ALWAYS pay for things before I know the cost of 'em! Turned out they would only pay a fraction of the cost (a tiny fraction). Thankfully I make a good income so I wasn't hurting. That's because I had the sense to get a good job early on and make a lot of money. Poor people are losers and if I was a poor person right now I'd probably be in much worse shape because I was a loser. But I'm not. I make good money. Ergo I deserve healthcare.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Isn't that the whole point of being a capitalist? I could have sworn that was the highest virtue for those of us who strive to be the best Americans we can be. If I have a way of taking advantage of your need to massively increase my wealth that's what I am supposed to do.

I thought this was a real discussion...not some anti-capitalist whining session.

Hmmm, how do you arrive at that point? We have a multibillionaire (Jeff Bezos) who has profited handsomely from the COVID pandemic yet his employees are urinating in bottles so they don't lose any precious seconds. Meanwhile Jeff is flying to the edge of space on his personal spaceship.

I'd say that Jeff B. wins Capitalism wouldn't you?

Yeah...this guy has done well for himself over the past two decades by focusing on the customer.

How about billionaire Elon Musk who, in a snit, recently moved his corporate headquarters to Texas because of better tax structure (ie less). Why pay for infrastructure when some sucker will give you a price break even if you turn your back on the state that gave you your entire career?

Really? I wasn't aware that California just gave billionaires billions. All this time I thought he had to work for that.

This isn't a modern idea. Famous "robber barons" of the 19th century hired armed gunmen to slaughter labor strikers and then made up for it by paying for a few libraries around the country.

Is that what is happening? The billionaires are gunning down workers?

You don't get really wealthy until you can look another human in the eye and NOT SEE A HUMAN LIFE but rather a means to increase your wallet girth.

Did I miss anything?

Yeah. Arguably nothing has ever reduced poverty more than capitalism, ever, in the history of the world.

 

[Clare73]

Not me! I love my insurance! Just last year I had a severe medical emergency and I called my insurance company up to find out if they would cover the treatment.

There's better insurance than your HMO.

They said the would but since it was out of network they couldn't tell me how much they would cover. They said that they would know how much they would cover once they got the bill (after I'd paid it).

That's why the insurance-based system is PERFECT! I ALWAYS pay for things before I know the cost of 'em! Turned out they would only pay a fraction of the cost (a tiny fraction). Thankfully I make a good income so I wasn't hurting. That's because I had the sense to get a good job early on and make a lot of money. Poor people are losers and if I was a poor person right now I'd probably be in much worse shape because I was a loser. But I'm not. I make good money. Ergo I deserve healthcare.

 

[pacomascarot]

There's better insurance than you HMO.

I don't have an HMO. I have regular health insurance.

But don't feel bad for not knowing what you are talking about.

 

[Clare73]

I don't have an HMO. I have regular health insurance.

But don't feel bad for not knowing what you are talking about.

Guess you didn't know that "out of network" means HMO, and an HMO by any other name is still an HMO.

Won't hold your ignorance against you as you would me.

 

[pacomascarot]

I thought this was a real discussion...not some anti-capitalist whining session.

Whining? Not at all! I'm American I know the value of capitalism! I'm just rejoicing in what it can fully be.

Yeah...this guy has done well for himself over the past two decades by focusing on the customer.

Thankfully he doesn't have any employees and he can do it all himself.

Really? I wasn't aware that California just gave billionaires billions.

Elon Musk made his billions in the tech and dot com sectors. Those are largely coming out of Silicon Valley historically.

All this time I thought he had to work for that.

Last I checked Elon didn't make any roads, sewers, or electrical grid let alone the internet his entire fortune started in.

Is that what is happening? The billionaires are gunning down workers?

Don't read much history?

Yeah. Arguably nothing has ever reduced poverty more than capitalism, ever, in the history of the world.

Like I said, I agree! Capitalism rocks! And we need fewer controls on capitalism so we can live as good as the capitalist winners in the Gilded Age. They RULED!

 

[pacomascarot]

Guess you didn't know that "out of network" means HMO, and an HMO by any other name is still an HMO.

Given that literally every single health insurance plan I've seen and been involved in in the last 25 years has In-Network and Out-of-Network coverage I doubt you are correct there.

But if you have a citation or source of information I'd be interested in reading it.

 

[TheWhat?]

I would like to have the freedom to invest in a stock market not manipulated by hedge funds, to collaboratively own and manage the business I work for, and to have the option to retire to a commune for old folks where I can debate religion and politics until my dying breath.

I don't have this freedom, currently.

 

[pacomascarot]

I would like to have the freedom to invest in a stock market not manipulated by hedge funds

That wouldn't be very American would it?

, to collaboratively own and manage the business I work for,

The means of production in the hands of the proletariat?

and to have the option to retire to a commune for old folks where I can debate religion and politics until my dying breath.

What is this "retirement" of which you speak? Sounds like a bunch of really old "free-loaders".

I don't have this freedom, currently.

You don't have any of that because that isn't American. In America you get a bunch of good things (sorta kinda) and in exchange you give up anything that even slightly stinks of caring for others or a sense of personal safety (physical or economic).

It's a fair trade.

 

[TheWhat?]

That wouldn't be very American would it?

Why not? A free market should be free, right?

The means of production in the hands of the proletariat?

Not exactly. It's still free enterprise, but it would elevate me along with my fellow collaborators to becoming business owners and profit sharers. I'm all about the freedom to explore and implement a variety of business models. Unfortunately we're dominated by and not sheltered from big business, limiting freedoms.

What is this "retirement" of which you speak? Sounds like a bunch of really old "free-loaders".

Well, I don't know, maybe that is a little pie-in-the-sky, but given that we used to and still do have a few religious communes around, there might be a way to make it work. It would require freedom to figure it out though.