Freedom or Socialism?

[Tom 1]

There are plenty of examples of socialized energy failures, and I have yet to find a single national socialized energy solution that hasn't failed and left people in the dark (quite literally).

What? Where? What developed country other than the US has had a major electrical failure in recent decades? The US has more power outages then any other developed country, you've had several major blackouts a decade there going back over the last 70 years or so.

 

[rambot]

There are plenty of examples of socialized energy failures, and I have yet to find a single national socialized energy solution that hasn't failed and left people in the dark (quite literally).

As solar comes down in price, I encourage every homeowner to get solar to the point where we are no longer dependent on a centralized power utility for our electricity needs. Neighborhood grids are IMO the future, whereas off-grid solutions are perfect for those who want independent power.

What? There's been plenty of examples of capitalist systems failing. Texas had two failures primarily due to trying to avoid sociulism and be part of a bigger network.

 

[Clare73]

The problem with fable allegories is "the ol switcheroo".

Switch "government socialism" and "social programs" with "corporate health insurers" and "massive profits for themselves and shareholders" and the point is just as strong.

That's why we have anti-trust laws.

In a republic, the government cannot be better than the people.
It's not our form of government that is the problem.

 

[Clare73]

What? Where? What developed country other than the US has had a major electrical failure in recent decades? The US has more power outages then any other developed country, you've had several major blackouts a decade there going back over the last 70 years or so.

You think it might have a little to do with using more power because of more productivity.

 

[visionary]

There is huge spiritual warfare these days by anti-Christian forces against Christian values and core beliefs. One of the main ways they attack Christian values is to de-humanize human beings and the main way is by comparing them to wild animals. The story you provided is a fable that is used for that purpose. The Word of God says man is made in God's image. Humans are not wild pigs. The Word of God makes this very clear. The Word of God tells us about Jesus' life and His Ministry to all mankind, including many of those people that earthly society looks down on and treats as animals. Your story is just furthering these anti-Christian belief sets. I wholly reject your story based on my Christian values.

Fair enough, the point of the story has little to do with the animals in the story and more to do with moral of the story. Dehumanization to me, is making us a number, aborting the unwanted, euthenizations, etc. My illustration was not an attack against Christian values. I apologize for hitting a sore point with you.

 

[Clare73]

What? There's been plenty of examples of capitalist systems failing. Texas had two failures primarily due to trying to avoid sociulism and be part of a bigger network.

That's not a systemic failure of capitalism.

Actually, it was due to freeze.

The innmates want to run the asylum.

 

[Tom 1]

You think it might have a little to do with using more power because of more productivity.

You might imagine that. How much of the US has the same industrial output as Germany, for example, within a roughly comparable area?

A more accurate method would be looking at how and why blackouts occur in the US. Which of them was caused by 'more productivity'?

 

[Clare73]

You might imagine that. How much of the US has the same industrial output as Germany, for example, within a roughly comparable area?

A more accurate method would be looking at how and why blackouts occur in the US. Which of them was caused by 'more productivity'?

Well, they're all caused by people. . .like those who limit the ability to produce adequate power.

 

[visionary]

Amazing how a story to illustrate turns into a debate on the integrity of the story.

 

[rambot]

That's not a systemic failure of capitalism.

Actually, it was due to freeze.

The innmates want to run the asylum.

No. It was due to capitalists cutting corners to increase profits.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Amazing how a story to illustrate turns into a debate on the integrity of the story.

It's a bit like the frog in boiling water story.

It's a bit of an oversimplification. Both stories are essentially slippery slope arguments. Beware gradual change because it will eventually strip you of your liberty or life or something....

I don't agree with every socialist proposal....but I don't disagree with all them either. I don't believe in private prisons. I don't believe that prisons should be for profit and I don't think that failing private prisons have any option apart from being subsidized by taxpayers. Private prisons don't make sense, capitalism isn't a good model for that system.

At the same time, I don't think my taxes should subsidize child care either. Childcare is expensive, I get it. That's why you shouldn't have children until you can reasonably afford them. If having a child means you're going to struggle financially for the next 20 years....then you struggle financially for the next 20 years. I'm not here to pay for your bad choices.

 

[SimplyMe]

You think it might have a little to do with using more power because of more productivity.

No, it doesn't. Almost always the cause has been energy providers being "cheap" -- such as in Texas the energy providers not properly insulating their plants because it would cost more than they wanted to pay -- and it led to two major blackouts in Texas over the last decade. Even after the first, not as severe blackout, they still refused to take the steps that were identified (and that they promised to take) because of the cost.

Worse, some of the electrical providers that had plants/pipelines fail actually made money on the deal, as they managed to keep a couple plants of open and, for those couple of days, made more money as they could charge 1000x as much for the little energy they produced, due to the artificial scarcity that they created. For the small amount of electricity that was created, Texas consumers will pay $50 billion -- ten times more than they would have paid if all the plants had been online.

It is one of the flaws of capitalism -- artificial scarcity can lead to profits, and we've seen "savvy" corporate profiteers take advantage of this throughout US history.

 

[Tom 1]

Well, they're all caused by people. . .like those who limit the ability to produce adequate power.

Do you have any concrete examples of what it is you mean?

 

[Clare73]

No. It was due to capitalists cutting corners to increase profits.

Increase profits on a good plan to insure energy independence. . .

The issue is not capitalism. . .the issue is morality.

You're in for a surprise if you think the morals will be better under a socialist government. . .and you won't have any alternatives to their morality as you do in capitalism.

 

[Clare73]

Do you have any concrete examples of what it is you mean?

It's not abstract external forces that cause problems, and no matter what system of government you use, it's not the abstract evil external forces that cause the problems, it's the people that cause the problems.

Since all is subject to the character of people, you best choose a form of government where the government answers to the citizens, and the citizens have some control over it.

 

[Ana the Ist]

No. It was due to capitalists cutting corners to increase profits.

Word? Where did they fail to meet regulations and how much were they fined?

Or was everything they did perfectly legal?

 

[Clare73]

No, it doesn't. Almost always the cause has been energy providers being "cheap" -- such as in Texas the energy providers not properly insulating their plants because it would cost more than they wanted to pay --

I think utilities may be regulated in Texas.
Have you checked to see what that had to do with it, if the company was not allowed to raise rates to cover the expensive winterizing, etc., therefore nixing it?

and it led to two major blackouts in Texas over the last decade. Even after the first, not as severe blackout, they still refused to take the steps that were identified (and that they promised to take) because of the cost.

Worse, some of the electrical providers that had plants/pipelines fail actually made money on the deal, as they managed to keep a couple plants of open and, for those couple of days, made more money as they could charge 1000x as much for the little energy they produced, due to the artificial scarcity that they created. For the small amount of electricity that was created, Texas consumers will pay $50 billion -- ten times more than they would have paid if all the plants had been online.

It is one of the flaws of capitalism -- artificial scarcity can lead to profits, and we've seen "savvy" corporate profiteers take advantage of this throughout US history.

 

[Clare73]

You might imagine that. How much of the US has the same industrial output as Germany, for example, within a roughly comparable area?

How much of the US has the same density as Germany within a comparable area?

A more accurate method would be looking at how and why blackouts occur in the US. Which of them was caused by 'more productivity'?

And which were caused by restraints on power production...

 

[Clare73]

Amazing how a story to illustrate turns into a debate on the integrity of the story.

You think the integrity of the story doesn't have anything to do with the accuracy of the facts being debated?

 

[pacomascarot]

Single payer medical is probably the most important issue for the public or politicians to decide in favor of freedom or socialism.

The arguments for socialism is the cost would be half as much as the existing non system, and we know that from all the other wealthy countries that not only costs but also results are a lot better, but our forefathers, and fore-mothers, fought for our freedom and we all know a bit of extra money for the health insurance companies is a small price to pay for our freedom.

It's a tough decision. Our founding fathers knew we'd value a few cents in our pockets today in exchange for dying tomorrow.

The worst part of single payer is that it allows people who didn't earn healthcare to have access to it.