Near death experiences—Can we learn anything from them?

[Francis Drake]

If they are really “brain dead”, and they are really still experiencing something, then it would seem to point to an ability to experience things after our senses are gone. Are these experiences accurate? Testimony says they are, but how do we apply the scriptural testimony test of two or three witnesses to an experience of one?

Has anyone ever heard of two people “dying” in the same event and coming back with the same story? Including, perhaps, even interacting with each other in the spirit world?

Two or three witnesses?
It doesn't have to be 2 or 3 witnesses of the exact same thing, but they can witness the exact same phenomena.

Countless people have undergone similar events such as floating outside the body above the operating theatre or hospital and seeing things that are out of site from their bed.
These same experience at different hospitals gives you your 2 or 3 witnesses, (or more likely 200 or 300)

There are also countless witnesses of people who have visited heaven during out of body events. Their descriptions all vary, but with sufficient overlap to give the multitude of witnesses.

 

[Albion]

If they are really “brain dead”, and they are really still experiencing something, then it would seem to point to an ability to experience things after our senses are gone.

Yes.

Are these experiences accurate? Testimony says they are, but how do we apply the scriptural testimony test of two or three witnesses to an experience of one?

This isn't about applying any scriptural test. And we don't know why some of these experiences happen. Not anymore than we know how they happen.

 

[Derf]

Two or three witnesses?
It doesn't have to be 2 or 3 witnesses of the exact same thing, but they can witness the exact same phenomena.

Countless people have undergone similar events such as floating outside the body above the operating theatre or hospital and seeing things that are out of site from their bed.
These same experience at different hospitals gives you your 2 or 3 witnesses, (or more likely 200 or 300)

There are also countless witnesses of people who have visited heaven during out of body events. Their descriptions all vary, but with sufficient overlap to give the multitude of witnesses.

Would it be ok if two or three people saw two or three different murders by two or three different people? And then we can convict all three as murderers?

I’m not so sure it can work that way.

 

[Derf]

Yes.


This isn't about applying any scriptural test. And we don't know why some of these experiences happen. Not anymore than we know how they happen.

It might be if we are seeking spiritual truth from the events.

 

[Albion]

It might be if we are seeking spiritual truth from the events.

Then don't seek spiritual truth from the events. There may be some, but not necessarily. The point about NDEs is that the ones which actually reveal something that is verifiably true, but the person in question had no way of knowing it, suggests an existence after physical death. That's all. No other "revelation" or confirmation of any Biblical teaching is necessarily involved.

 

[Derf]

Then don't seek spiritual truth from the events. There may be some, but not necessarily. The point about NDEs is that the ones which actually reveal something that is verifiably true, but the person in question had no way of knowing it, suggests an existence after physical death. That's all. No other "revelation" or confirmation of any Biblical teaching is necessarily involved.

Since it is by nature a spiritual event, the ONLY kind of truth one can get from it is spiritual truth. And if that kind is off the table, then no truth is available from them at all. They may as well not be happening. Yet they are.

 

[Albion]

Since it is by nature a spiritual event,

So is birth, but if such normal functions of life are to be considered spiritual events, then that is all that NDEs are about.

When people begin assessing them and interpreting these experiences as verifying Jesus' teachings or events from the Bible or anything else of that sort, they're going well beyond what NDEs are all about.

 

[Derf]

So is birth, but if such normal functions of life are to be considered spiritual events, then that is all that NDEs are about.

When people begin assessing them and interpreting these experiences as verifying Jesus' teachings or events from the Bible or anything else of that sort, they're going well beyond what NDEs are all about.

Birth is inherently a physical AND spiritual event.

Jesus used physical event stories to tell spiritual truths because some weren’t able to handle the spiritual truths yet. And God gave Moses physical types and shadows of spiritual things, indicating that we can learn things about spiritual things from physical events or stories, and Moses wasn’t able to see God face to face yet.

So it seems that if we are presented with a spiritual event, it should be more of an original than the types and shadows we are used to experiencing. To throw out all knowledge gained from it would be sticking our heads in the sand—IF there is actual knowledge to be gained.

If not, there are surely a whole lot of Christians being deceived to think there is knowledge to be gained.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

Can you provide a source showing Jews believed in an immortal soul in Jesus’ time?

https://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/8092-immortality-of-the-soul

The belief in the immortality of the soul came to the Jews from contact with Greek thought and chiefly through the philosophy of Plato, its principal exponent, who was led to it through Orphic and Eleusinian mysteries in which Babylonian and Egyptian views were strangely blended....

 

[Derf]

https://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/8092-immortality-of-the-soul

The belief in the immortality of the soul came to the Jews from contact with Greek thought and chiefly through the philosophy of Plato, its principal exponent, who was led to it through Orphic and Eleusinian mysteries in which Babylonian and Egyptian views were strangely blended....

If the Greeks are correct, then the NDEs might be showing us something of what happens after death.

If the more ancient of the Jews are correct, then the more common idea of a shadowy existence in Hades after death was not correct, AND NEITHER IS THE MORE COMMON CHRISTIAN IDEA OF GOING TO BE WITH JESUS IMMEDIATELY UPON DEATH, but rather we will see both Jesus and our loved ones when He returns and resurrects His followers from the dead.

I’m more inclined to trust the ancient Jews than the Greeks, as the Jews, not the Greeks, were entrusted with the Oracles of God.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

If the Greeks are correct, then the NDEs might be showing us something of what happens after death.

If the more ancient of the Jews are correct, then the more common idea of a shadowy existence in Hades after death was not correct, AND NEITHER IS THE MORE COMMON CHRISTIAN IDEA OF GOING TO BE WITH JESUS IMMEDIATELY UPON DEATH, but rather we will see both Jesus and our loved ones when He returns and resurrects His followers from the dead.

I’m more inclined to trust the ancient Jews than the Greeks, as the Jews, not the Greeks, were entrusted with the Oracles of God.

Welcome to bible truth on the state of the dead

 

[Saint Steven]

I’m more inclined to trust the ancient Jews than the Greeks, as the Jews, not the Greeks, were entrusted with the Oracles of God.

If I haven't already said it, the term "realm of the dead" occurs 29 times in the NIV translation. Once in Ecclesiastes chapter nine. Twice in Acts chapter two. The balance in the OT.

BibleGateway - Keyword Search: realm of the dead

 

[Original Happy Camper]

If I haven't already said it, the term "realm of the dead" occurs 29 times in the NIV translation. Once in Ecclesiastes chapter nine. Twice in Acts chapter two. The balance in the OT.

BibleGateway - Keyword Search: realm of the dead

"Realm of the dead" is not found in the King James version of the bible

BibleGateway - Keyword Search: realm of the dead

do you think Hort and Westcott had an agenda in their translation?

Revelation 22:18
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

Sorry to see you are basing your theology on this statement "realm of the dead"

 

[Saint Steven]

"Realm of the dead" is not found in the King James version of the bible

BibleGateway - Keyword Search: realm of the dead

do you think Hort and Westcott had an agenda in their translation?

Revelation 22:18
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

Sorry to see you are basing your theology on this statement "realm of the dead"

That's ridiculous.

The NIV uses the term "the realm of the dead", the KJV uses "Sheol". So...
the absence of the term "the realm of the dead" does not remove it from the Bible. It is referred to as "Sheol" instead. Same thing, different name.

Sorry to see you are basing your theology on pretending that "the realm of the dead" (Sheol/the grave) does not exist. ("the grave" = 136 times in the KJV)

Did King James have an agenda?
At least the translators of the NIV knew enough to be honest about that fact that the original writing of Revelation was on a scroll, not a book. Which then limits the curse you seem to love so much to only THAT scroll, not to the whole "book" we call the Bible.

Revelation 22:18 NIV
I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll.

 

[Original Happy Camper]

That's ridiculous.

The NIV uses the term "the realm of the dead", the KJV uses "Sheol". So...
the absence of the term "the realm of the dead" does not remove it from the Bible. It is referred to as "Sheol" instead. Same thing, different name.

Sorry to see you are basing your theology on pretending that "the realm of the dead" (Sheol/the grave) does not exist. ("the grave" = 136 times in the KJV)

Did King James have an agenda?
At least the translators of the NIV knew enough to be honest about that fact that the original writing of Revelation was on a scroll, not a book. Which then limits the curse you seem to love so much to only THAT scroll, not to the whole "book" we call the Bible.

Revelation 22:18 NIV
I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to that person the plagues described in this scroll.

You still believe this do you not? " Genesis 3:4
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:"
based on your spirit memory stance

 

[Saint Steven]

You still believe this do you not? " Genesis 3:4
And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:"
based on your spirit memory stance

I am familiar with SDA doctrine, yes.

You still believe this, do you not? Scripture below. (KJV)
What day did they die? (the day they ate thereof) Explain.

Genesis 2:17 KJV
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

 

[Derf]

I am familiar with SDA doctrine, yes.

You still believe this, do you not? Scripture below. (KJV)
What day did they die? (the day they ate thereof) Explain.

Genesis 2:17 KJV
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

They died in the day they ate of the fruit.

 

[Saint Steven]

... based on your spirit memory stance

Jesus described the realm of the dead (Sheol/the Grave) in the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus. Was he being misleading, or telling the truth?

 

[Derf]

I am familiar with SDA doctrine, yes.

You still believe this, do you not? Scripture below. (KJV)
What day did they die? (the day they ate thereof) Explain.

Genesis 2:17 KJV
But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

They died in the day they ate of the fruit.

 

[Saint Steven]

They died in the day they ate of the fruit.

Physically, or spiritually? (obvious answer)