Do some people take it too far? Eucharist

[renniks]

Do you believe the Lords' supper is a memorial of Jesus' death on a cross as a propitiation for our sins, or not?

After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.

This is so obvious I don't know how people choose to miss it.
Jesus didn't cut off a finger and offer it to his followers for food.
It's metaphorical. He didn't bleed into the cup, and he said that the cup was a covenant, but it was still just a cup. It's so obviously symbolism.

 

[childeye 2]

I'm glad you wrote this, because others here don't appear to want to respond to me.

This is so obvious I don't know how people choose to miss it.

I think that maybe they're supposed to?

Jesus didn't cut off a finger and offer it to his followers for food.
It's metaphorical. He didn't bleed into the cup, and he said that the cup was a covenant, but it was still just a cup. It's so obviously symbolism.

It's in earnest when I say it's not a joking matter, but I'm absolutely certain that a loaf of bread was not crucified. The bread is therefore a metaphor for his body. But even so, His coming in the flesh as the bread of life is literally food, spiritually speaking, which he even explained was how it was to be received John 6:63 .

So then there's always the comment, rooted in John 6:53, that there were those who no longer followed Jesus because they were offended at the thought of cannibalism. As if disapproving of cannibalism was their mistake. But it seems obvious to me that those who were offended and wouldn't follow him anymore, were mistakenly thinking Jesus was talking about cannibalism, rather than about believing on Him Who took on flesh and blood. John 6:35 .

Therefore I want to say this for the record. True worship is drawn out by the object of worship, and it's not at my discretion that the Lord is most worthy. I don't worship the blood or the flesh of Christ so I can live forever. I live to worship the Person Whose Love/compassion comes down from heaven, that He would partake of flesh and blood and suffer a crucifixion so that those He Loves, may live.

Whether I take the Eucharist a thousand times a day, or once a week, won't change anything. It has nothing to do with about how many times I partake, but rather that I partake worthily when I do, because to me there's judgment at the cup.

 

[prodromos]

But it seems obvious to me that those who were offended and wouldn't follow him anymore, were mistakenly thinking Jesus was talking about cannibalism, rather than about believing on Him Who took on flesh and blood. John 6:35

Why then did Jesus not correct their 'misunderstanding'?

 

[pescador]

Why then did Jesus not correct their 'misunderstanding'?

He did; keep reading...

"Everyone whom the Father gives me will come to me, and the one who comes to me I will never send away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my own will but the will of the one who sent me." John 6:37-38

 

[prodromos]

He did; keep reading...

"Everyone whom the Father gives me will come to me, and the one who comes to me I will never send away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my own will but the will of the one who sent me." John 6:37-38

How is that a correction?

 

[childeye 2]

Why then did Jesus not correct their 'misunderstanding'?

I'm not sure they can understand or that Jesus even wanted them to. Perhaps he couldn't finish his mission with huge crowds following him. Remember that this all hindsight to us. For we know that elsewhere in scripture when Jesus was asked why he speaks in parables, he answered saying that it was not given to some that they should understand, Matthew 13:13. Here Jesus seems to be corroborating that same sentiment saying only those whom God would give him, would/could come to him:

Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

And here again Jesus speaks spiritually, but again the people don't understand:
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

 

[prodromos]

I'm not sure they can understand or that Jesus even wanted them to. Perhaps he couldn't finish his mission with huge crowds following him. Remember that this all hindsight to us. But we know that elsewhere in scripture when Jesus was asked why he speaks in parables, he answered saying that it was not given to some that they should understand, Matthew 13:13. Here Jesus seems to be corroborating that same sentiment saying only those whom God would give him, would/could come to him:

Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

And here again Jesus speaks spiritually, but again the people don't understand:
I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Every time Jesus spoke in parables, He then explained the meaning to His disciples. In the case of John 6, He doubles down on the eating His flesh and drinking His blood. Many stopped following Him as a result of what you claim was a simple misunderstanding which Jesus could have corrected. He didn't, ergo they had the correct understanding, they just didn't understand how it could be possible. That was revealed later at the last supper.

 

[renniks]

[STAFF EDITED DELETED QUOTE]
So it's not literal blood, then? Because you can't have it both ways.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I believe his message is clear. If he wanted us to believe it was symbolic I believe he would of told us so.

I politely disagree. He said something similar to the Samaritan woman and gave no indication that it was symbolic either. I believe He gave a hint to what He meant in John 4 in His message to the Samaritan woman.

“Jesus answered and said to her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again; but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.””
‭‭John‬ ‭4:13-14‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Very similar to what He said about His blood in John 6.

“But He said to them, “I have food to eat that you do not know about.” So the disciples were saying to one another, “No one brought Him anything to eat, did he?” Jesus *said to them, “My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me and to accomplish His work. Do you not say, ‘There are yet four months, and then comes the harvest’? Behold, I say to you, lift up your eyes and look on the fields, that they are white for harvest. Already he who reaps is receiving wages and is gathering fruit for life eternal; so that he who sows and he who reaps may rejoice together. For in this case the saying is true, ‘One sows and another reaps.’ I sent you to reap that for which you have not labored; others have labored and you have entered into their labor.””
‭‭John‬ ‭4:32-38‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Notice the similarity in the message but in the case of the Samaritan woman He didn’t use the example of bread or His blood. The food is symbolic for His desire to do The Father’s will.

“Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.” Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?” Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” So they said to Him, “What then do You do for a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work do You perform? Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread out of heaven to eat.’ ” Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.” Then they said to Him, “Lord, always give us this bread.” Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:27-35‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

These two messages are strikingly similar yet they do not both refer to bread and wine. Another thing, if Jesus was speaking literally then that would mean that everyone who received the Eucharist would have to be saved. But this can’t be true because we know from Paul that anyone who receives it in worthily is actually cursed. Surely we all know that many people have received the Eucharist who do not have Christ abiding in them. Italian mafia members are notorious for this in their attempts to act as sheep in wolf’s clothing to avoid suspicion. So if Jesus was speaking literally then these men would have to receive eternal life. This is typically where people will begin to waiver in their claim that He was speaking literally and claim that not all His statements were meant to be taken literally in John 6. Judas received the Eucharist from Christ Himself and we all know that he is condemned. On the very night in the upper room when He specifically stated “this is My body, this is My blood” in Luke 22 He had this to say about Judas.

“I do not speak of all of you. I know the ones I have chosen; but it is that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who eats My bread has lifted up his heel against Me.’ From now on I am telling you before it comes to pass, so that when it does occur, you may believe that I am He. Truly, truly, I say to you, he who receives whomever I send receives Me; and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me.””
‭‭John‬ ‭13:18-20‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Judas ate the bread, he received the Eucharist just like the rest of the 12 but like I said if Jesus was speaking literally in John 6 then Judas must be saved. The problem is, we know that he is not because he did not believe.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Every time Jesus spoke in parables, He then explained the meaning to His disciples. In the case of John 6, He doubles down on the eating His flesh and drinking His blood. Many stopped following Him as a result of what you claim was a simple misunderstanding which Jesus could have corrected. He didn't, ergo they had the correct understanding, they just didn't understand how it could be possible. That was revealed later at the last supper.

His intention was to drive away those who didn’t believe. That’s why the more they grumbled about eating His flesh and drinking His blood the harder He pushed the idea. They didn’t have ears to hear so they were not permitted to understand. In other words they weren’t interested in listening and believing, their ears and their eyes were closed so He didn’t want them following Him.

 

[Not David]

I politely disagree. He said something similar to the Samaritan woman and gave no indication that it was symbolic either. I believe He gave a hint to what He meant in John 4 in His message to the Samaritan woman.

“Jesus answered and said to her, “Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again; but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.””
‭‭John‬ ‭4:13-14‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Very similar to what He said about His blood in John 6.

“But He said to them, “I have food to eat that you do not know about.” So the disciples were saying to one another, “No one brought Him anything to eat, did he?” Jesus *said to them, “My food is to do the will of Him who sent Me and to accomplish His work. Do you not say, ‘There are yet four months, and then comes the harvest’? Behold, I say to you, lift up your eyes and look on the fields, that they are white for harvest. Already he who reaps is receiving wages and is gathering fruit for life eternal; so that he who sows and he who reaps may rejoice together. For in this case the saying is true, ‘One sows and another reaps.’ I sent you to reap that for which you have not labored; others have labored and you have entered into their labor.””
‭‭John‬ ‭4:32-38‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Notice the similarity in the message but in the case of the Samaritan woman He didn’t use the example of bread or His blood. The food is symbolic for His desire to do The Father’s will.

“Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal.” Therefore they said to Him, “What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?” Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.” So they said to Him, “What then do You do for a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work do You perform? Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, ‘He gave them bread out of heaven to eat.’ ” Jesus then said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world.” Then they said to Him, “Lord, always give us this bread.” Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me will not hunger, and he who believes in Me will never thirst.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:27-35‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

These two messages are strikingly similar yet they do not both refer to bread and wine. Another thing, if Jesus was speaking literally then that would mean that everyone who received the Eucharist would have to be saved. But this can’t be true because we know from Paul that anyone who receives it in worthily is actually cursed. Surely we all know that many people have received the Eucharist who do not have Christ abiding in them. Italian mafia members are notorious for this in their attempts to act as sheep in wolf’s clothing to avoid suspicion. So if Jesus was speaking literally then these men would have to receive eternal life. This is typically where people will begin to waiver in their claim that He was speaking literally and claim that not all His statements were meant to be taken literally in John 6. Judas received the Eucharist from Christ Himself and we all know that he is condemned. On the very night in the upper room when He specifically stated “this is My body, this is My blood” in Luke 22 He had this to say about Judas.

“I do not speak of all of you. I know the ones I have chosen; but it is that the Scripture may be fulfilled, ‘He who eats My bread has lifted up his heel against Me.’ From now on I am telling you before it comes to pass, so that when it does occur, you may believe that I am He. Truly, truly, I say to you, he who receives whomever I send receives Me; and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me.””
‭‭John‬ ‭13:18-20‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Judas ate the bread, he received the Eucharist just like the rest of the 12 but like I said if Jesus was speaking literally in John 6 then Judas must be saved. The problem is, we know that he is not because he did not believe.

Why are you trying to conflict both points instead of thinking they both can be true?

 

[BNR32FAN]

All of the original apostolic Churches, without exception, share your beliefs about the Eucharist, and have held that belief since the beginning. Jesus said "this is my body" and "this is my blood". St. Paul specifically identifies the Eucharist as "the Lord's body".

If it is not the body and blood of Christ when did it cease to be?

I just want to say that I have a great respect and admiration for the Catholic Church and the writings of the early church fathers, I just think they were wrong on this particular matter. No offense intended.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Why are you trying to conflict both points instead of thinking they both can be true?

If both are true then Jesus went from speaking literally about the Eucharist to symbolically about it by saying anyone who receives it has eternal life. Many people here are saying that He gave no indication that He was speaking symbolically so by that logic the same would have to be said in both cases. I think the fact that we know that Judas received the Eucharist and we know for a fact that he will not receive eternal life proves that Jesus was not speaking literally.

 

[Not David]

If both are true then Jesus went from speaking literally about the Eucharist to symbolically about it by saying anyone who receives it has eternal life. Many people here are saying that He gave no indication that He was speaking symbolically so by that logic the same would have to be said in both cases. I think the fact that we know for a fact that Judas received the Eucharist and we know for a fact that he will not receive eternal life proves that Jesus was not speaking literally.

"Wherefore I pray thee, have mercy upon me and forgive my transgressions both voluntary and involuntary, of word and of deed, of knowledge and of ignorance; and make me worthy to partake without condemnation of thine immaculate Mysteries, unto remission of my sins and unto life everlasting. Amen.

Of thy Mystic Supper, O Son of God, accept me today as a communicant: for I will not speak of thy Mystery to thine enemies, neither will I give thee a kiss as did Judas; but like the thief will I confess thee: Remember me, O Lord, in thy Kingdom.

Not unto judgment nor unto condemnation be my partaking of thy Holy Mysteries, O Lord, but unto the healing of soul and body."

 

[renniks]

[STAFF EDITED DELETED QUOTE]
Literally?
Then if it's wine, it's not literally blood. If it's not literally blood, you can not claim the passage is literal.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Literally?
Then if it's wine, it's not literally blood. If it's not literally blood, you can not claim the passage is literal.

I fear that many do not see the issue as either/or but as both/and. For them the bread and wine do retain the physical attributes of bread and wine, but metaphysically they become flesh and blood.

 

[childeye 2]

Every time Jesus spoke in parables, He then explained the meaning to His disciples. In the case of John 6, He doubles down on the eating His flesh and drinking His blood. Many stopped following Him as a result of what you claim was a simple misunderstanding which Jesus could have corrected. He didn't, ergo they had the correct understanding, they just didn't understand how it could be possible. That was revealed later at the last supper.

The conclusion we must draw if Jesus is talking about cannibalism, is that eternal life is not in his spirit that came down from heaven, but rather in his flesh and blood that was born of a woman. This actually could make sense since it's his flesh and blood that is payment for sins and not his Spirit.

But then why did he say that His words are Spirit and his words are Life? I believe he, His Person, is the bread from heaven, the Word made flesh. In him is the resurrection, for he came to sacrifice his flesh and begin the New Testament in his blood.

Christ is a quickening Spirit that has come in the flesh. We know that he descended into the place of the dead, while his flesh remained in the tomb. Wherefore it's the spirit that gives life to the body and not the body that gives life to the spirit. 62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing.

Romans 10
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

 

[BNR32FAN]

How can this statement be meant literally if Judas received the Eucharist and will not live forever? I don’t see how this could be possible.

“I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.””
‭‭John‬ ‭6:51‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[childeye 2]

How can this statement be meant literally if Judas received the Eucharist and will not live forever? I don’t see how this could be possible.

“I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.””
‭‭John‬ ‭6:51‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

There is this.

27 So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28 Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup. 29 For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves. 30 That is why many among you are weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. 31 But if we were more discerning with regard to ourselves, we would not come under such judgment. 32 Nevertheless, when we are judged in this way by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will not be finally condemned with the world.

 

[prodromos]

How can this statement be meant literally if Judas received the Eucharist and will not live forever? I don’t see how this could be possible.

“I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread also which I will give for the life of the world is My flesh.””
‭‭John‬ ‭6:51‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of profaning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a man examine himself, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment upon himself. That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died​