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Are non-Jewish Christians commanded to keep the 7th Day Sabbath

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Saint Steven

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You are going outside the Bible and we should reply on God’s written Word.
Why would you limit sources? Especially when you use EGW to interpret the Bible.
Do you use language resources, or a concordance in your studies?

Just to be clear, I am not claiming "the day" was changed. There is no day. Unless you want one. Feel free. Just don't impose your choice on me.
 
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parousia70

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow
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I never said it could only happen twice I was using that as an example.
What scriptural evidence do you have that prophesies get fulfilled more than once?
Such would be an oxymoron.
There is prophesy, and then there is FULL-fillment … you can't have a fulfillment that isnt a FULL -fillment. Thats why it's calle FULfillment.
The word itself doesnt allow for a partial anything. There's FULL and there's FILL.
If you FILL a glass, it's FULL. There's no room for more.

Prophesies remain unfulfilled until they are FULL-filled.
Are you expecting another virgin birth?
Another crucifixion?
Why not? We can certainly apply your rule of multiple fulfillment’s you those, no?

You didn't answer my question but that's okay I need to go anyway. I hope you have a great day.

God bless
Will do!
I’m headed to worship the risen Lord and celebrate the day He rose by participating in the communion service the way the apostles of scripture did, and the way the church of Scripture has done, in unbroken fashion, for 2000 years. Matthew 16:18
God bless you as well.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Why would you limit sources? Especially when you use EGW to interpret the Bible.
Do you use language resources, or a concordance in your studies?

Just to be clear, I am not claiming "the day" was changed. There is no day. Unless you want one. Feel free. Just don't impose your choice on me.

Our scripture comes from the bible. EGW tells us everything must be tested by scripture. Not sure if you noticed, but none of the SDA's on this forum quote EGW, it's always biblical scripture. The only people who bring up EGW is when they disagree with biblical scripture that EGW did not write, but does tell us to listen to.

Why we should only follow God's written Word instead of what is outside the bible so we can know we are following God. Scripture is God's written Word to us and Jesus tells us He gives us the Holy Spirit so we can obey God's written Word John 14:15-18, Acts 5:32.

Scripture tells us the the devil deceives THE WHOLE WORLD that should be alarming. I know I want to follow God is truth and Spirit, The bible tells us everything we need to know including the day that is holy to God Exodus 20:10, Isaiah 58:13, Genesis 2:1-3, Isaiah 66:23 and should be for us too. Exodus 20:8. God does not tell us the day doesn't matter, because He said it does matter which is why we have clear concise scripture. A tree mattered to God in the Garden of Eden and it's amazing how many people have been deceived into thinking God's holy day does not matter and when God said Remember, He was just kidding. The Sabbath is God's blessing and so many miss out on God's free gift.
 
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Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president
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What does this have to do with Jesus giving a new commandment about Sunday worship? Nothing.
Mary still kept the Sabbath according to the commandment that is not deleted in the New Testament
Luke 23:56 Then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment.
Correct me if I'm wrong here. Mary was a Jew wasn't she. As a matter of fact everyone you could mention from the NT observing the Sabbath was a Jew.
How does that have anything to do with gentile Christians and the Sabbath?
Please show me one vs., 2 or more would be better, commanding gentile Christians to observe the Sabbath.
There is no scripture saying the Lords day is the first day. Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath Mark 2:28 which is the seventh day and the seventh day is the only day in the entire Bible that is holy to our Lord and Savior. Exodus 20:10, Genesis 2:1-3, Isaiah 58:13, Isaiah 66:23
You are trying hard to make scripture say what it plainly does not. We have free will, but you cannot change the will of our Savior which is the same for us in heaven as it is on this earth. Isaiah 66:23
All irrelevant. No Christian here has ever said that Sunday is the Sabbath.
Instead of trying to find missing text that is not there in scripture, its better to embrace the truth about what happened to God’s Sabbath. The Roman Catholic Church are proud they made this change without scripture authority, Just a few quotes…
Wrong again. There was no Catholic church with a Pope in Rome until 1075 when Gregory VII declared himself to be the supreme bishop of the Church by issuing Dictatus Papae, The Dictates of the Pope. Until that time all presiding bishops had equal authority.

But the church was worshiping on Sunday about 900 years before that. So you guys need to get yourself another scapegoat.
Justin [A.D. 110-165.] The First Apology. Chap. LXVII. — Weekly Worship of the Christians.
And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday,76 all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability,77 and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given,78 and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.
* * * Irrelevant quotations omitted.* * *
Maybe instead of believing everything your church tells you, you should do a little independent searching.
 
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Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president
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There are only a couple of instances communion is mentioned none of which coincide with Sunday worship. * * *
For example?
 
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LoveGodsWord

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I find that an interesting denominational-specific response, because that's exactly what Paul's doing: calling the ten commandments "transitory". It shows that denominations can read the same scripture and teach completely different conclusions.

Actually it was not a denominational-specific response it was a response from God's Word alone and No. Paul says no such thing. It is not the 10 commandments that are transitory or abolished it is the ministration of condemnation and death that is abolished through the ministration of the Spirit through Gods' new covenant promise of grace, mercy and forgiveness. As shown in post # 396 linked the scriptures show that it is the ministration of the letter that is "transitory" or passes away with the ministration of the Spirit. That is because it is the letter of the law that gives us a knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4) ans because all of us have sinned and are sinners (Romans 3:9-20; Romans 6:23) the wages of sin is condemnation and death. It is this ministration of the letter that brings condemnation and death that is "transitory" to the ministration of the Spirit that brings mercy, grace and forgiveness though faith the works by love which is God's new covenant promise to all those who believe and follow what Gods 'Word says *Hebrews 8:10-12; Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27.

................

2 CORINTHIANS 3:3-18
[3], For as much as YOU ARE MANIFESTLY DECLARED TO BE THE LETTER OF CHRIST MINISTERED BY US, WRITTEN NOT WITH INK, BUT WITH THE SPIRIT OF THE LIVING GOD; NOT IN TABLES OF STONE, BUT IN FLESHY TABLES OF THE HEART.
[4], And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
[5], Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
[6], WHO ALSO HAS MADE US ABLE MINISTERS OF THE NEW TESTAMENT; NOT OF THE LETTER, BUT OF THE SPIRIT: FOR THE LETTER KILLS, BUT THE SPIRIT GIVES LIFE.

[7], BUT IF THE MINISTRATION OF DEATH,
WRITTEN AND ENGRAVED IN STONES, WAS GLORIOUS, SO THAT THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL COULD NOT STEADFASTLY BEHOLD THE FACE OF MOSES FOR THE GLORY OF HIS COUNTENANCE; WHICH GLORY WAS TO BE DONE AWAY:
[8], HOW SHALL NOT THE MINISTRATION OF THE SPIRIT BE RATHER GLORIOUS?
[9], FOR IF THE MINISTRATION OF CONDEMNATION be glory, much more does the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
[10], For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excels.
[11], FOR IF THAT WHICH IS DONE AWAY WAS GLORIOUS, MUCH MORE THAT WHICH REMAINS IS GLORIOUS.
[12], Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
[13], AND NOT AS MOSES, WHICH PUT A VEIL OVER HIS FACE, THAT THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL COULD NOT STEADFASTLY LOOK TO THE END OF THAT WHICH IS ABOLISHED:
[14], BUT THEIR MINDS WERE BLINDED: FOR UNTIL THIS DAY REMAINS THE SAME VEIL NOT TAKEN AWAY IN THE READING OF THE OLD TESTAMENT; WHICH VEIL IS DONE AWAY IN CHRIST.
[15], But even to this day, when Moses is read, the veil is on their heart.
[16], NEVERTHELESS WHEN IT SHALL TURN TO THE LORD, THE VEIL SHALL BE TAKEN AWAY.
[17], Now THE LORD IS THAT SPIRIT: AND WHERE THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS, THERE IS LIBERTY.
[18], But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the LORD.

.....................

It is the ministration of condemnation and death by the letter that is done away by the ministration of the Spirit through God's mercy, grace and forgiveness through faith that works by love in fulfillment of Gods' new covenant promise (Hebrews 8:10-12; from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27) that is done away not God's 10 commandments. All God's 10 commandments do under the new covenant is to give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing) and evil (moral wrong doing); sin (moral wrong doing) and righteousness (moral right doing) *Romans 3:20: Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172. An interpretation that 2 Corinthians 3 is talking about abolishing Gods' 10 commandments has Paul in contradiction to Paul when he says in Romans 3:31 that faith does not abolish Gods' law it establishes God's law and again in Romans 13:8-10 where Paul says we love our neighbor as our self by being obedient to those laws in God's 10 commandments that show us our duty of love to our fellow man. Indeed the ministration of the Spirit is greater the than the ministration of the letter because while the letter brings death and condemnation while the Spirit brings life and forgiveness through Christ and writes the law on the heart through faith that works by love which is Gods' new covenant promise in all those who have been born again to believe and follow God's Word and walk in newness of life *John 3:3-7; 1 John 3:4-9; Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27; Romans 6:1-23.

Now what is it in the scriptures provided here that you disagree with and why?

Take Care.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Good thing my arguments are for Scripture, then!

I disagree with your interpretation of Scripture, not with the Scripture itself. That being said, while I agree with the fourth century anti-Arian St. Hilary of Poitiers that Scripture is in the interpretation and not the reading, I do not believe that disagreements over the correct interpretation of Scripture are disagreements with God, because epistemologically, we cannot know for sure when it comes to close issues, for example, a dispute dating back to the early Church which continues until the present, albeit which has been largely set aside through ecumenical dialogue, although there are still hardcore Ethiopians and Copts, and various Eastern Orthodox laity and clergy, especially Old Calendarists, and one high profile canonical bishop, Metropolitan Seraphim of Piraeus, who continue the dispute, over whether or not our Lord, God and Savior, the Only Begotten Son and Incarnate Word of God Jesus Christ, exists in a state of hypostatic union of two natures, one human and one divine, which are united in one hypostasis without change, confusion, separation or division, or whether He exists in a state of hypostatic and natural union from two natures, one human and one divine, which were united in the Incarnation in one nature and one hypostasis without change, confusion, separation or division.

The former is Chalcedonian Christology, based on the Tome of Pope Leo I, and accepted at the Council of Chalcedon, and the latter is Miaphysite Christology, adhered to by the Oriental Orthodox churches (Armenian, Coptic, Ethiopian, Syriac and Indian Orthodox), based on the writings of St. Cyril of Alexandria and accepted at the earlier Council of Ephesus, both of which are accepted as Ecumenical by Chalcedonians, although Chalcedon is obviously not accepted as Ecumenical by the Oriental Orthodox.

Who is right? The supporters of Chalcedon, like St. Leo I, St. Gelasius, Emperor Justinian, St. Gregory the Great, and St. John of Damascus, or St. Dioscorus, St. Severus of Antioch, St. Jacob of Sarugh, St. Theodora (the wife of Emperor Emperor Justinian, St. Jacob Baradaeus, and St. Gregorios bar Hebraeus? Scripture does not provide a clear answer. Perhaps both are wrong and Nestorius was right, or perhaps Theodore of Mopsuestia, or the Assyrian Church of the East with its semi-Chalcedonian Christology of Mar Babai the Great, Mar Narsai, and St. Isaac the Syrian? Again, it is a historical dispute where all of the interpretations are equally sound, so it comes down to Christological analysis, logic, reason, and politics.

And indeed, the Congregation of the Doctrine of Faith when Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI was in charge of it determined all three Christologies (Assyrian, Miaphysite, and Chalcedonian) were compatible, and the Miaphysite Syriac Orthodox Church and the Chalcedonian Antiochian Orthodox Church have become extremely closely tied through ecumenical agreements, which extend to allowing laity to communicate in either church and banning conversions from one to the other. A looser, but still intimate, relationship exists between the His Beatitude Greek Orthodox Pope and Patriarch of Alexandria and All Africa, Theodore II, and His Holiness the Coptic Orthodox Pope of Alexandria. These close relationships, which in the case of the Syriac and Antiochian church is about as close as possible without full communion, are unprecedented among the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox communions, and no other churches enjoy the privilege of such close relations with them.*

Another, more recent dispute with some Patristic antecedents, but which never led to a schism in the early church, is the Calvinist vs. non-Calvinist dispute, which was prefaced by the disagreements between Calvin and Luther, but these had more to do with the Eucharist than predestination, but which exploded in full force when the Remonstrants, led by Jacob Arminius, launched the Arminian movement, and everyone picked a side, except for the Anglicans; this issue cannot be decided from Scripture, but it appears that the consensus patrum (a Calvinist term) of the Early Church would have been against Calvinism, believing innfree will with some possible exceptions, like St. Augustine of Hippo. Certainly the Orthodox (Eastern and Oriental), the Assyrians and the Roman Catholics, which collectively are the only churches with roots in antiquity, the Waldensians, contrary to rumor, not having emerged until the dawn of the Renaissance in the 14th century, and incidentally, being sufficiently inclined towards Calvinism so as to adopt Calvinist theology when those not slaughtered in the dreadful Piedmont massacre took refuge in Switzerland; in an odd twist, the Waldensians are now the main Protestant church in Italy and the presumably Arminian** Methodists joined them.

Calvinism vs. non-Calvinism (Arminianism, broadly defined**) cannot be proven, despite the attempts of many, on the Bible, although some doctrines of John Calvin and some doctrines of Calvinist movements like the Puritans, such as Iconoclasm and A Capella Exclusive Psalmody, or the non-celebration of Christmas and other feasts, are difficult to reconcile with scripture, which is why the majority of Calvinist churches as well as the largest and most important Calvinist churches, such as the PCUSA, the United Reformed Church of Great Britain, the Church of Scotland, the UCC and many other Congregational churches, and Calvinist non-denominational churches, and the Reformed Church in America, and the Calvinist chapters of the SBC, reject some or all of them.

* With the exception of the Malankara Independent Syrian Church in India, a Syriac Orthodox jurisdiction which exists outside of the canonical Oriental Orthodox communion, and is not in communion with the Syriac Orthodox or Indian Orthodox churches in India, but which is in full communion with the Protestant Mar Thoma Syrian Church, which is part of the Anglican Communion.

** Non-Calvinism is commonly called Arminianism, and Calvinism is commonly called Reformed Theology. I find these labels misleading, because the Protestant Reformation was not exclusively Calvinist, and I have seen the term Reformed used in Zwinglian contexts fairly frequently, and indeed in other contexts, but they are alas thoroughly entrenched. Arminianism narrowly defined, which is to say, the actual Remonstrant Brotherhood, still exists and has 5,000 members in 40 Dutch parishes and 1 German parish, but sadly has become non-creedal, with some members being “Gronigers” who reject the doctrine of the Trinity and divine justice expiatory, and other members being Unitarians, and still others having arbitrary beliefs; it is very common for Remonstrants to write their own personal Statement of Faith, and the Remonstrants were also the first Protestant church to bless same-sex unions, in 1986. So, needless to say, we can positively disprove the doctrines of the modern day Remonstrants with ease. Perhaps its best that the term Arminianism does not apply to them, and I was mistaken in advocating for its use as such; perhaps Arminianism would best apply specifically to the early Remonstrants, who would certainly not have embraced gay marriage or Unitarianism, but were rather very close to the Reformed Church doctrinally, except in their rejection of Five Point Calvinism in favor of free will.

Actually no you have not provided any scripture or any arguments supported in scripture and neither have you provided and reason from scripture why you disagree with the scriptures that have been shared with you that disagree with your teachings.

Take Care.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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The only reference to the Lord's Day in the entire Bible is found in Revelation 1:10 where it is not defined. We have to reference the writings of the early church to find a definition. And we do.

Aren't you the same guys who claim the Church changed the day to Sunday? Or do you blame it on Constantine? Canon 29 of the Council of Laodicea says that the first day of the week was already the day.

Canon 29 of the Council of Laodicea (ca. A.D. 360)
Christians must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honouring the Lord's Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ.

I find this quite amusing. I posted earlier there is no scripture that says "the Lords day" of Revelation 1:10 is Sunday or the first day of the week. I asked the question what day does scripture say is "the Lords day" then post Matthew 12:8 that says the son of man is Lord of the Sabbath day which answers the question. In response your evidence that Sunday is "the Lords day" is a statement outside of scripture from the Roman Catholic Church which is not scripture. So I guess you have no scripture for this tradition now do you.

Take Care.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Footnote to Post 414:

*Sabbatarianism per se without the added complexity of Adventist doctrine would in theory have fewer issues, although it is still obviously erroneous both from a scriptural and Patristic perspective. In practice however, the other major Sabbatarian church, the Seventh Day Baptist church, appears to have its own very dubious beliefs. An extremely biased Wikipedia article, which I have flagged for review, suggests that an entire ancient Christian nation believes in or believed in Sabbatarianism, not saying which; I suspect they think it to be the Ethiopians or Assyrians, as I have seen allegations that they are or were Sabbatarian, which is of course entirely false.

The closest thing to such an extant group might be the Molokans, an ethnically Russian group of Sabbatarians, Messianic Jews and converts to non-Messianic non-Christian Rabinnical-Talmudic type Judaism (a now extinct group of Jewish converts lived in California, but to the regret of a prominent Californian Rabbi, were never welcomed into fellowship by the hereditary Jews), which appeared in the wake of the Nikonian schism. The Molokans, from what I understand, are largely endogamous for practical or dogmatic reasons, and so could be considered by this point to constitute an ethnic group, with multiple subgroups. They are still extant in Russia and a few other places. Owing to the aforesaid diversity of beliefs, ranging from Trinitarian Messianic Judaism to non-Trinitarian Messianic Judaism to actual Judaism, they do not constitute an eastern analogue to the Seventh Day Adventist church, although there is a church in the former Soviet Union that was SDA, but separated in a schism during the Soviet era (I am surprised they weren’t suppressed; they seem to have fared better than the Russian Orthodox or especially the Russian Catholics, the former experiencing absurd restrictions on youth catechesis, preaching, and seminaries, and confiscation and destruction of many churches and monasteries, and the latter experiencing this to an even more extreme degree, with their cathedral in Moscow seized, and the genocide against Ukrainians ordered by Stalin further reducing their numbers.

Just more of your words in place of Gods Word. I am not even sure of the point your even trying to make here and how it is relevant to the discussion if I am being honest. What is quite revealing is the name tags some try and put on others who simply seek to believe and follow what Gods' Word says and when questioned by scriptures seek to talk about anything else but scripture. Yet it is scripture that is the light of the world that dispels and darkness and misunderstanding in regards to Gods' will. Anyhow we are all free to believe and do whatever we wish as God is our judge come judgement day according to John 12:47-48.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Correct me if I'm wrong here. Mary was a Jew wasn't she. As a matter of fact everyone you could mention from the NT observing the Sabbath was a Jew.
How does that have anything to do with gentile Christians and the Sabbath?
Please show me one vs., 2 or more would be better, commanding gentile Christians to observe the Sabbath.

All irrelevant. No Christian here has ever said that Sunday is the Sabbath.

Wrong again. There was no Catholic church with a Pope in Rome until 1075 when Gregory VII declared himself to be the supreme bishop of the Church by issuing Dictatus Papae, The Dictates of the Pope. Until that time all presiding bishops had equal authority.

But the church was worshiping on Sunday about 900 years before that. So you guys need to get yourself another scapegoat.
Justin [A.D. 110-165.] The First Apology. Chap. LXVII. — Weekly Worship of the Christians.
And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday,76 all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability,77 and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given,78 and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.
* * * Irrelevant quotations omitted.* * *
Maybe instead of believing everything your church tells you maybe you should do a little independent searching.

Consider yourself corrected. In the new covenant there are no more divisions between Jewish and gentile believers as we are all now one in Christ. Therefore Gods' Word is for His people to believe and follow.

Romans 2:28-29 [28], For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: [29], But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

God's Israel in the new covenant are no longer only those who are born of the flesh of the seed of Abraham but are now all those who are now born of the Spirit into God's new covenant promise to believe and follow Gods' Word *Romans 9:6-8; Galatians 2:28-29; Romans 2:28-29. If you are not a part of God's Israel you have no part in God's new covenant promise *Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27. Gentile believers are now grafted in *Romans 11:13-27. Therefore all of Gods' Word is now for all of God's people who are all now one in Christ.

There is no scripture that says that "the Lords day" is Sunday or the first day of the week. This again is a man-made teaching and tradition that can only be found in the teachings and traditions of men outside of the bible. As posted earlier to someone else; there is no scripture that says "the Lords day" of Revelation 1:10 is Sunday or the first day of the week. I asked the question what day does scripture say is "the Lords day" then post Matthew 12:8 that says the son of man is Lord of the Sabbath day which answers the question. In response people provide sources outside of the scriptures to seek to claim that Sunday is "the Lords day" is a statement outside of scripture from the Roman Catholic Church which is not scripture. So I guess it is true, you have no scripture for this man-made teaching and now tradition do you.

Why tell someone not to believe everything their Church tells them when they are only sharing scripture with you and in response you do not post scripture and post something that your Church has told you outside of the scriptures? Aren't you simply doing what you claim others are doing in your post here that the people you are posting to are actually not doing?

Take Care.
 
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ChetSinger

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Actually it was not a denominational-specific response it was a response from God's Word alone and No. Paul says no such thing. It is not the 10 commandments that are transitory or abolished it is the ministration of condemnation and death that is abolished through the ministration of the Spirit through Gods' new covenant promise of grace, mercy and forgiveness. As shown in post # 396 linked the scriptures show that it is the ministration of the letter that is "transitory" or passes away with the ministration of the Spirit. That is because it is the letter of the law that gives us a knowledge of what sin is (Romans 3:20; Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4) ans because all of us have sinned and are sinners (Romans 3:9-20; Romans 6:23) the wages of sin is condemnation and death. It is this ministration of the letter that brings condemnation and death that is "transitory" to the ministration of the Spirit that brings mercy, grace and forgiveness though faith the works by love which is God's new covenant promise to all those who believe and follow what Gods 'Word says *Hebrews 8:10-12; Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27.

................

2 CORINTHIANS 3:3-18
[3], For as much as YOU ARE MANIFESTLY DECLARED TO BE THE LETTER OF CHRIST MINISTERED BY US, WRITTEN NOT WITH INK, BUT WITH THE SPIRIT OF THE LIVING GOD; NOT IN TABLES OF STONE, BUT IN FLESHY TABLES OF THE HEART.
[4], And such trust have we through Christ to God-ward:
[5], Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;
[6], WHO ALSO HAS MADE US ABLE MINISTERS OF THE NEW TESTAMENT; NOT OF THE LETTER, BUT OF THE SPIRIT: FOR THE LETTER KILLS, BUT THE SPIRIT GIVES LIFE.

[7], BUT IF THE MINISTRATION OF DEATH,
WRITTEN AND ENGRAVED IN STONES, WAS GLORIOUS, SO THAT THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL COULD NOT STEADFASTLY BEHOLD THE FACE OF MOSES FOR THE GLORY OF HIS COUNTENANCE; WHICH GLORY WAS TO BE DONE AWAY:
[8], HOW SHALL NOT THE MINISTRATION OF THE SPIRIT BE RATHER GLORIOUS?
[9], FOR IF THE MINISTRATION OF CONDEMNATION be glory, much more does the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
[10], For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excels.
[11], FOR IF THAT WHICH IS DONE AWAY WAS GLORIOUS, MUCH MORE THAT WHICH REMAINS IS GLORIOUS.
[12], Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:
[13], AND NOT AS MOSES, WHICH PUT A VEIL OVER HIS FACE, THAT THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL COULD NOT STEADFASTLY LOOK TO THE END OF THAT WHICH IS ABOLISHED:
[14], BUT THEIR MINDS WERE BLINDED: FOR UNTIL THIS DAY REMAINS THE SAME VEIL NOT TAKEN AWAY IN THE READING OF THE OLD TESTAMENT; WHICH VEIL IS DONE AWAY IN CHRIST.
[15], But even to this day, when Moses is read, the veil is on their heart.
[16], NEVERTHELESS WHEN IT SHALL TURN TO THE LORD, THE VEIL SHALL BE TAKEN AWAY.
[17], Now THE LORD IS THAT SPIRIT: AND WHERE THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS, THERE IS LIBERTY.
[18], But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the LORD.

.....................

It is the ministration of condemnation and death by the letter that is done away by the ministration of the Spirit through God's mercy, grace and forgiveness through faith that works by love in fulfillment of Gods' new covenant promise (Hebrews 8:10-12; from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27) that is done away not God's 10 commandments. All God's 10 commandments do under the new covenant is to give us the knowledge of good (moral right doing) and evil (moral wrong doing); sin (moral wrong doing) and righteousness (moral right doing) *Romans 3:20: Romans 7:7; 1 John 3:4; Psalms 119:172. An interpretation that 2 Corinthians 3 is talking about abolishing Gods' 10 commandments has Paul in contradiction to Paul when he says in Romans 3:31 that faith does not abolish Gods' law it establishes God's law and again in Romans 13:8-10 where Paul says we love our neighbor as our self by being obedient to those laws in God's 10 commandments that show us our duty of love to our fellow man. Indeed the ministration of the Spirit is greater the than the ministration of the letter because while the letter brings death and condemnation while the Spirit brings life and forgiveness through Christ and writes the law on the heart through faith that works by love which is Gods' new covenant promise in all those who have been born again to believe and follow God's Word and walk in newness of life *John 3:3-7; 1 John 3:4-9; Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27; Romans 6:1-23.

Now what is it in the scriptures provided here that you disagree with and why?

Take Care.
We might as well not continue. I think your denomination has completely missed the point of that passage. And you don't. So I'll agree to disagree about it.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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We might as well not continue. I think your denomination has completely missed the point of that passage. And you don't. So I'll agree to disagree about it.
Yet I have only provided scripture to you from my own personal study of God's Word, and no one else's study and when asked, you cannot even tell me what it is you disagree with from the scriptures shared with you in post # 426 linked which shows why your interpretation of lawlessness (without law) from 2 Corinthians 3 is not biblical or supported in the scriptures you claim to believe. Anyhow, my prayer is that you will receive Gods' Word and be blessed and perhaps you can prayerfully go over what was shared with you from the scriptures in the linked post above. Of course you are free to believe and do as you wish. That would be between you and God.

Take Care.
 
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AdamjEdgar

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The two covenants are the same...the only difference is that the second covenant (new covenant) is based on better promises.

The new covenant does not do away with the law...I for the life of me do not understand why so many Sunday worshipping groups can't understand this...it is written so plainly it doesn't even require any kind of deep intellectual thinking!

The difference between the two covenants is not their words...it's where they are written.

The Old Covenant = laws written on tablets of stone and placed inside the Ark

The New Covenant = The laws written in our minds and on our hearts.


The new covenant in Hebrews chapter 8 is still with the house of Israel as referenced in Jeremiah 31:26

Contrary to popular belief, the new covenant prophesied by Jeremiah and mediated by Jesus is not a gentile covenant as Sunday worships seem to keep implying. There is but one reason why Sunday worshippers do this, it is to avoid the Sabbath commandment and instead worship the resurrection!

I will warn such individuals...the patience of the saints in Revelation 14:12 is critical in the salvation story, ..."here are those who keep the commandments and have the testimony of Jesus."

If the commandments were no longer to be kept, why bother labelling the saints using such direct reference to the law of God? Jesus himself in his testimony (his ministry) kept the law.

The reason for the new covenant is clearly explained by Paul in Hebrews...it's because the people (their forefathers) did not abide by the old one!

Here is the new covenant...


“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord,

when I will make a new covenant

with the house of Israel

and with the house of Judah.


9It will not be like the covenant

I made with their fathers

when I took them by the hand

to lead them out of the land of Egypt,

because they did not abide by My covenant,

and I disregarded them,

declares the Lord.

10For this is the covenant I will make

with the house of Israel

after those days,

declares the Lord.

I will put My laws in their minds

and inscribe them on their hearts.


And I will be their God,

and they will be My people.
 
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parousia70

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I am referring to Matthew 24:20- Luke 21:20-22

This has a dual prophesy. It was fulfilled with the Fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 but the second advent of Jesus has not taken place so it has a future application

So your claim is that Luke 21:20-22 Was applicable to the Christians of the first century, AND applicable to a future generation of a Christians (perhaps even ours) but had ZERO application to the 20 centuries of Christian generations that came and went in between.

Do I have that right?
 
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LoveGodsWord

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The two covenants are the same...the only difference is that the second covenant (new covenant) is based on better promises.

The new covenant does not do away with the law...I for the life of me do not understand why so many Sunday worshipping groups can't understand this...it is written so plainly it doesn't even require any kind of deep intellectual thinking!

The difference between the two covenants is not their words...it's where they are written.

The Old Covenant = laws written on tablets of stone and placed inside the Ark

The New Covenant = The laws written in our minds and on our hearts.


The new covenant in Hebrews chapter 8 is still with the house of Israel as referenced in Jeremiah 31:26

Contrary to popular belief, the new covenant prophesied by Jeremiah and mediated by Jesus is not a gentile covenant as Sunday worships seem to keep implying. There is but one reason why Sunday worshippers do this, it is to avoid the Sabbath commandment and instead worship the resurrection!

I will warn such individuals...the patience of the saints in Revelation 14:12 is critical in the salvation story, ..."here are those who keep the commandments and have the testimony of Jesus."

If the commandments were no longer to be kept, why bother labelling the saints using such direct reference to the law of God? Jesus himself in his testimony (his ministry) kept the law.

The reason for the new covenant is clearly explained by Paul in Hebrews...it's because the people (their forefathers) did not abide by the old one!

Here is the new covenant...


“Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord,

when I will make a new covenant

with the house of Israel

and with the house of Judah.


9It will not be like the covenant

I made with their fathers

when I took them by the hand

to lead them out of the land of Egypt,

because they did not abide by My covenant,

and I disregarded them,

declares the Lord.

10For this is the covenant I will make

with the house of Israel

after those days,

declares the Lord.

I will put My laws in their minds

and inscribe them on their hearts.


And I will be their God,

and they will be My people.

I think that is the problem right there. Many do not understand what the covenants are and what has been fulfilled and continued in Christ and what has not.

God bless
 
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Der Alte

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LoveGodsWord said:
Consider yourself corrected. In the new covenant there are no more divisions between Jewish and gentile believers as we are all now one in Christ. Therefore Gods' Word is for His people to believe and follow.
Romans 2:28-29 [28], For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: [29], But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Was this recognized and observed by first century Jews. Is it recognized and practiced by any significant number of Jews today? NO and NO! So this doesn't even come close to addressing my question.
God's Israel in the new covenant are no longer only those who are born of the flesh of the seed of Abraham but are now all those who are now born of the Spirit into God's new covenant promise to believe and follow Gods' Word *Romans 9:6-8; Galatians 2:28-29; Romans 2:28-29. If you are not a part of God's Israel you have no part in God's new covenant promise *Hebrews 8:10-12 from Jeremiah 31:31-34 and Ezekiel 36:24-27. Gentile believers are now grafted in *Romans 11:13-27. Therefore all of Gods' Word is now for all of God's people who are all now one in Christ.

Not relevant to any point I am discussing.
[QUOTE]
There is no scripture that says that "the Lords day" is Sunday or the first day of the week. This again is a man-made teaching and tradition that can only be found in the teachings and traditions of men outside of the bible. As posted earlier to someone else; there is no scripture that says "the Lords day" of Revelation 1:10 is Sunday or the first day of the week. I asked the question what day does scripture say is "the Lords day" then post Matthew 12:8 that says the son of man is Lord of the Sabbath day which answers the question. In response people provide sources outside of the scriptures to seek to claim that Sunday is "the Lords day" is a statement outside of scripture from the Roman Catholic Church which is not scripture. So I guess it is true, you have no scripture for this man-made teaching and now tradition do you.
[/QUOTE]
Wrong! Mostly irrelevant! You can't even get this historical information right The church worshipped on Saturday 800-900 years before there was a "catholic church" with a "pope" in Rome.
Look up Gregory VII and the Dictatus Papae. That makes this complete paragraph false.
Why tell someone not to believe everything their Church tells them when they are only sharing scripture with you and in response you do not post scripture and post something that your Church has told you outside of the scriptures? Aren't you simply doing what you claim others are doing in your post here that the people you are posting to are actually not doing?
Take Care.
Is this supposed to make sense?
 
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ChetSinger

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Justin [A.D. 110-165.] The First Apology. Chap. LXVII. — Weekly Worship of the Christians.
And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday,76 all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability,77 and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given,78 and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.
Every time I read that quote I feel a sense of longing. It sounds so peaceful. I wish the services in my church had less praise band music and more scripture reading.
 
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Der Alte

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Every time I read that quote I feel a sense of longing. It sounds so peaceful. I wish the services in my church had less praise band music and more scripture reading.
I know what you mean. I switched churches about 5-6 years ago because my wife is Korean, although she speaks English, she is more comfortable in a Korean service. My former church shortly after I moved merged with another larger church. I tuned in their service online today. It sounded more like a rock concert.
My current church sings the hymns I know they are in Korean fortunately I can read Korean.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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So your claim is that Luke 21:20-22 Was applicable to the Christians of the first century, AND applicable to a future generation of a Christians (perhaps even ours) but had ZERO application to the 20 centuries of Christian generations that came and went in between.

Do I have that right?
Yes, it did have the application to the 20 centuries of Christian generations, but that is past tense, Jesus has not come back yet, right now Christians (for the most part) have the freedom to keep God’s Sabbath and commandments but as shown in Revelations 12:17 the devil is going to go to war with the Commandment keepers, which includes the Sabbath, so this still has a future application. I hope this helps.
 
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The Liturgist

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Actually no you have not provided any scripture or any arguments supported in scripture and neither have you provided and reason from scripture why you disagree with the scriptures that have been shared with you that disagree with your teachings.

Take Care.

Forgive me, but you are mistaken. I have in the course of this and other discussions provided numerous scriptural quotations and arguments, including in this argument, several verses adjacent to verses others quoted eisegetically, which had the effect of invalidating the claim made about the verse.

Additionally, I do not disagree with any canonical scriptures, properly translated. What I disagree with is EGW’s interpretation thereof.
 
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