I hate when people take simple scripture and interpret it to mean what they want

[SeventhFisherofMen]

amen I think what happens is some go to books that are explaining things , without ever going to the scripture for themselves.

the example you use here


“For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭6:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

is something so clear and also repetitive directly from Christs word of life in the gospel such as again here


“And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.

But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭11:25-

And also on the parable of the unforgiving servant which concludes the same way about the man who was forgiven and then refused to forgive others


“And his Lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭18:34-35‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I’ve experienced the same as you are saying I believe it comes because of books by men who teach that it doesn’t apply “because of grace “ they’ve sold millions of books telling Christians why Jesus words don’t apply to a believer in Christ but only “ unwarranted favor “ applies


they teach literally that anything God tells us to actually do and not do is Old Testament and the New Testament is merely grace and nothing of the thkngs he taught apply it’s really terrible

Amen. You don't know how refreshing it was to read your post. Thank you for the time you spent typing it, I 100% agree with what you said

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

It is called eisegesis, and In Timothy, God, Jesus saves all, especially those who believe. So somehow there is another chance for believers and ones who never heard of forgiveness, after they die. There are stories of atheists and Muslims who see the light in an NDE, and come back with a new outlook.

 

[1watchman]

Literally, yes, it was Rome; and to please the Israelites who clamored for His death. The reason Israelites wanted Him killed was for speaking against their religious ways, and the Romans accommodated them to gain favor. We need to put the whole scene in all the NT together.

In studying "all the counsel of God', one can see that the Israelites of OT times ARE responsible for the killing of Jesus; for pressing the conquerors of Rome to do it. That is a separated issue to all else that Israel of olden times did to kill the Lord Jesus, their Messiah; and they have thus been rejected ever since.
Let us not get occupied with criticizing words, and understand the message of God.
Picking at Words missed the truth; but comparing Scripture with Scripture in the New Testament, we can see the full picture.
As the original OP stated herein: 'people take simple statements' and build a belief or argument. I agree with the OP that it is wrong; and not only, but playing into the hands of Satan to divide and scatter the saints over a few words.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

 

[pescador]

In studying "all the counsel of God', one can see that the Israelites of OT times ARE responsible for the killing of Jesus; for pressing the conquerors of Rome to do it. That is a separated issue to all else that Israel of olden times did to kill the Lord Jesus, their Messiah; and they have thus been rejected ever since.
Let us not get occupied with criticizing words, and understand the message of God.
Picking at Words missed the truth; but comparing Scripture with Scripture in the New Testament, we can see the full picture.
As the original OP stated herein: 'people take simple statements' and build a belief or argument. I agree with the OP that it is wrong; and not only, but playing into the hands of Satan to divide and scatter the saints over a few words.

Why do we have to go back and forth about this? The Romans killed Jesus! Some of the Jews wanted Him crucified, but others did not. To say that "the Israelites of OT times ARE responsible for the killing of Jesus" is anti-Semitism, pure and simple. The Romans could have refused their demand!

Also, you talk about "the Israelites of OT", meaning whom? The Israelites who fled Egypt, those who followed Moses' and Joshua's leadership? Those who obeyed the judges? Those who wanted Saul to be king? Those who wanted David to be king? Those who heard the prophets? Those who were exiled? Just whom do you mean by your catch-all, erroneous phrase?

And "they have thus been rejected ever since"? Such as the disciples of Jesus when He was alive? Paul?

What about this..? Romans 11:25-26, "I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob."

As you wrote, "Picking at Words missed the truth; but comparing Scripture with Scripture in the New Testament, we can see the full picture."

When are you going to stop your anti-Semitic ranting against the people to whom Jesus belonged during His time on Earth: the Jews?

 

[ViaCrucis]

The title says it all. I just listened to a sermon about the verse where Jesus says "unless you forgive others your Heavenly Father will not forgive you" and then proceeded to say "That might sound like if you don't forgive others you're going to hell, but I think it means this..."

Like bro Jesus literally simplified it to forgive or you won't be forgiven, that's what it means it's not some complicated thing that cannot be comprehended or needs 10 years of study in the greek to truly translate it better than experts who translate scripture and is their job.

Just wanted to vent my frustration when people overcomplicate scripture that is very simply put.

So would you say that the Lord is saying that God's mercy is predicated on our own moral ability? If this is the case, how do you reconcile that interpretation with the bulk witness of Scripture that God's mercy isn't predicated on us, but on Himself--"I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion" (Romans 9:15).

Instead, wouldn't it make more sense to dig below the surface to understand what ideas form the background context for what Jesus is saying?

Maybe it is as simple as you think it is.
Then again, maybe it's not.

If we, instead, understand that our own failure to forgive can harden ourselves and shut ourselves up to God's mercy; and that it isn't about God withholding forgiveness and therefore making our salvation predicated on our ability to obey the commandments of God; but rather about how God's mercy and forgiveness operates in our lives for the good--and the only ones that can shut us out from God's mercy and forgiveness is ourselves then we can see that grace isn't conditional, but unconditional. And, likewise, we can understand that our living out our faith into the world isn't about our earning divine favor, but walking in Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit--being ourselves sustained and nourished not by a religion of works and effort; but rather a religion of God's promises and God's own grace-filled work through Word and Sacrament.

When a Hebrew brought his offering he was to be truly contrite (as we read, "I desire mercy, not sacrifice") then the offering was acceptable; but without such contrition the offering was meaningless. So Jesus says, and it is fully in keeping with an Old Testament understanding of the Jewish sacrificial system, that if there is an injury between ourselves and our brother we ought to go and make amends and heal that relationship before bringing our offering.

In much the same way, when we approach the Lord's Table to receive the Offering of Himself in, with, and under the bread and the wine, we must not do so lightly, but with full seriousness. We approach the Table as reconciled and forgiven people, and we are told quite explicitly not to receive the Lord's body and blood in an unworthy manner.

"Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord. Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself." - 1 Corinthians 11:27-29

Since we are receiving Christ's own body broken for us, and His blood poured out for our forgiveness; we are partaking of His great sacrifice for us in which we are forgiven. To approach the Table of the Lord where His body and blood are given to us in, with, and under bread and wine is a far more serious and much more sacred thing than what all of the high priests of Israel did when they entered into the Holy of Holies.

Without repentance, without contrition, without humility toward each other and toward Christ then we make a mockery of God's mercy.

The matter is not "Do this or go to hell", it's "Do this, because this is what God has done for you".

Forgive, because you are forgiven.

If we do not forgive others, how can we hope to enjoy our forgiveness? Indeed, if we deny forgiveness of those whose indebted to us, are we not also in some way denying the forgiveness of God toward we ourselves? We our ourselves the greatest of debters, and if God can forgive us and cancel out all our debts by one single word of mercy; how much more ought we to forgive our own debtors?

Thus the mercy of God cuts deep, forgiving us of all our sins and, likewise, inviting us to share in God's mercy for and toward the world which is found in His only-begotten and beloved Son, our Lord Jesus Christ. This we do not do by our own power and might, but rather by the power of the Holy Spirit working ever upon us, as we drown and crucify the old Adam that still clings desperately to our ragged flesh until the Day that old man is finally put to rest and that ragged flesh becomes ragged no more.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[IntriKate]

The title says it all. I just listened to a sermon about the verse where Jesus says "unless you forgive others your Heavenly Father will not forgive you" and then proceeded to say "That might sound like if you don't forgive others you're going to hell, but I think it means this..."

Like bro Jesus literally simplified it to forgive or you won't be forgiven, that's what it means it's not some complicated thing that cannot be comprehended or needs 10 years of study in the greek to truly translate it better than experts who translate scripture and is their job.

Just wanted to vent my frustration when people overcomplicate scripture that is very simply put.

I feel the same, also when someone asks a question and people respond with literal essays instead of a simplified humble answer.

 

[TedT]

Israel didn't kill Jesus, Rome killed Jesus.

Ummm, to be precise, the sinful elect killed Christ as without their need for redemption unto salvation for their sins, ie, if they never chose to become sinful in HIS sight, He would not have needed to die.

 

[1watchman]

Why do we have to go back and forth about this? The Romans killed Jesus! Some of the Jews wanted Him crucified, but others did not. To say that "the Israelites of OT times ARE responsible for the killing of Jesus" is anti-Semitism, pure and simple. The Romans could have refused their demand!

Also, you talk about "the Israelites of OT", meaning whom? The Israelites who fled Egypt, those who followed Moses' and Joshua's leadership? Those who obeyed the judges? Those who wanted Saul to be king? Those who wanted David to be king? Those who heard the prophets? Those who were exiled? Just whom do you mean by your catch-all, erroneous phrase?

And "they have thus been rejected ever since"? Such as the disciples of Jesus when He was alive? Paul?

What about this..? Romans 11:25-26, "I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, and in this way all Israel will be saved. As it is written: “The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob."

As you wrote, "Picking at Words missed the truth; but comparing Scripture with Scripture in the New Testament, we can see the full picture."

When are you going to stop your anti-Semitic ranting against the people to whom Jesus belonged during His time on Earth: the Jews?

Since you asked me some questions I will just ONCE more try to explain this, and maybe make it more clear, brother --and then say no more to you. Israel as a religion IS set aside (and even over the years have suffered for this), and will NOT be recognized as of God again until as shown in Revelation with 144,000 NEW saints to be God's people on earth after the Millennium --study this out.

Today they MUST come on the same ground as Gentiles. I know that many among Israel were godly and WILL be in Heaven, as Scripture shows; but the religion apart from the Prophets is not valid now, and is NOT our source for Church Truth --the New Testament is our source and NOT what Israel practiced!
The Israelite religion was rejected and is YET not accepted by God, as Scripture makes plain. We need only value the Prophets of Israel and the faithful ones there of old, but the Israelite religion is no longer valid according to the NEW TESTAMENT, which is the ONLY source for Israelites today as with ALL of us. We take our authority and direction from the Gospels and the Epistles. Keep in mind that ALL that Israel shows is not Christianity!

I visited Israel many years ago and our guide was a Christian who was formerly of Naphtali heritage, and he confirmed this; and Scripture confirms this if one studies it carefully! I hope this helps you.

 

[pescador]

Ya I mean I don't think ALL scripture is simple, there is a time and place to interpret to better understand, I've just had a lot of frustration with people basically turning scripture into whatever they want it to mean instead of the true meaning of it

See my "signature" regarding eisegesis.

 

[pescador]

Ummm, to be precise, the sinful elect killed Christ as without their need for redemption unto salvation for their sins, ie, if they never chose to become sinful in HIS sight, He would not have needed to die.

No. To be precise, the Romans killed Jesus. Why do you and others twist what Scripture clearly says?

Matthew 27:27-37, "Then the governor’s soldiers took Jesus into the Praetorium and gathered the whole company of soldiers around him. They stripped him and put a scarlet robe on him, and then twisted together a crown of thorns and set it on his head. They put a staff in his right hand. Then they knelt in front of him and mocked him. “Hail, king of the Jews!” they said. They spit on him, and took the staff and struck him on the head again and again. After they had mocked him, they took off the robe and put his own clothes on him. Then they led him away to crucify him.

As they were going out, they met a man from Cyrene, named Simon, and they forced him to carry the cross. They came to a place called Golgotha (which means “the place of the skull”). There they offered Jesus wine to drink, mixed with gall; but after tasting it, he refused to drink it. When they had crucified him, they divided up his clothes by casting lots. And sitting down, they kept watch over him there. Above his head they placed the written charge against him: this is Jesus, the king of the Jews.

I suggest that you and others read this over and over until you realize who killed Jesus!!

 

[pescador]

Since you asked me some questions I will just ONCE more try to explain this, and maybe make it more clear, brother --and then say no more to you. Israel as a religion IS set aside (and even over the years have suffered for this), and will NOT be recognized as of God again until as shown in Revelation with 144,000 NEW saints to be God's people on earth after the Millennium --study this out.

Today they MUST come on the same ground as Gentiles. I know that many among Israel were godly and WILL be in Heaven, as Scripture shows; but the religion apart from the Prophets is not valid now, and is NOT our source for Church Truth --the New Testament is our source and NOT what Israel practiced!
The Israelite religion was rejected and is YET not accepted by God, as Scripture makes plain. We need only value the Prophets of Israel and the faithful ones there of old, but the Israelite religion is no longer valid according to the NEW TESTAMENT, which is the ONLY source for Israelites today as with ALL of us. We take our authority and direction from the Gospels and the Epistles. Keep in mind that ALL that Israel shows is not Christianity!

I visited Israel many years ago and our guide was a Christian who was formerly of Naphtali heritage, and he confirmed this; and Scripture confirms this if one studies it carefully! I hope this helps you.

Israel as a religion IS set aside?? Israel is not a religion; it is a nation and/or a people. (It's also Jacob's other name) Your opinion is wrong.

Matthew 2:6, “‘But you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, are by no means least among the rulers of Judah; for out of you will come a ruler who will shepherd my people Israel.’” (quoting Micah 5:2-4)

Matthew 15:24, "He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”

Luke 1:16, "He will bring back many of the people of Israel to the Lord their God.

Luke 1:68, "“Praise be to the Lord, the God of Israel, because he has come to his people and redeemed them.

John 12:13, "They took palm branches and went out to meet him, shouting, “Hosanna!” “Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!” “Blessed is the king of Israel!”

And that's just some selections from the Gospels.

Thank you for saying no more on the subject! Bye.

 

[klutedavid]

Israel as a religion IS set aside?? Israel is not a religion; it is a nation and/or a people. (It's also Jacob's other name) Your opinion is wrong.

Matthew 2:6, “‘But you, Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, are by no means least among the rulers of Judah; for out of you will come a ruler who will shepherd my people Israel.’” (quoting Micah 5:2-4)

Matthew 15:24, "He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”

Luke 1:16, "He will bring back many of the people of Israel to the Lord their God.

Luke 1:68, "“Praise be to the Lord, the God of Israel, because he has come to his people and redeemed them.

John 12:13, "They took palm branches and went out to meet him, shouting, “Hosanna!” “Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!” “Blessed is the king of Israel!”

And that's just some selections from the Gospels.

Thank you for saying no more on the subject! Bye.

Lots of people miss this this verse and don't understand what is being said.

Matthew 15:24, "He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”

That is why they read the gospels and develop their doctrine, based on, what Jesus said to the Jews. To be more accurate, we should establish our doctrine on what the apostle Paul wrote. As Paul was the apostle assigned to the Gentiles.

Humanity killed Jesus, humanity was responsible for the greatest crime ever committed.

 

[pescador]

Lots of people miss this this verse and don't understand what is being said.

Matthew 15:24, "He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”

That is why they read the gospels and develop their doctrine, based on, what Jesus said to the Jews. To be more accurate, we should establish our doctrine on what the apostle Paul wrote. As Paul was the apostle assigned to the Gentiles.

Humanity killed Jesus, humanity was responsible for the greatest crime ever committed.

Seriously? With the exception of Luke, all the authors of the Bible -- both Testaments -- were Jews.

If you think that there aren't any Jewish Christians, wake up. I myself am a Jew and a Christian.

 

[klutedavid]

Seriously? With the exception of Luke, all the authors of the Bible -- both Testaments -- were Jews.

If you think that there aren't any Jewish Christians, wake up. I myself am a Jew and a Christian.

I am awake.

Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles.

If we develop doctrine from the entire New Testament, we will end up with a mish mash, of law and grace. Paul taught that Gentiles were not under the law. Where as Jesus addressed those who were under the law, Jesus spoke about the law to the Jews only.

 

[pescador]

I am awake.

Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles.

If we develop doctrine from the entire New Testament, we will end up with a mish mash, of law and grace. Paul taught that Gentiles were not under the law. Where as Jesus addressed those who were under the law, Jesus spoke about the law to the Jews only.

You wrote "If we develop doctrine from the entire New Testament, we will end up with a mish mash, of law and grace." Not if you read it thoroughly and correctly. Try reading Romans for a starter.

 

[klutedavid]

You wrote "If we develop doctrine from the entire New Testament, we will end up with a mish mash, of law and grace." Not if you read it thoroughly and correctly. Try reading Romans for a starter.

I am very familiar with the letter to the Romans. Here is a summary of Paul's narration in the letter to the Romans.

Romans 9:30-32
What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works.

 

[klutedavid]

Seriously? With the exception of Luke, all the authors of the Bible -- both Testaments -- were Jews.

If you think that there aren't any Jewish Christians, wake up. I myself am a Jew and a Christian.

Your nationality has nothing to with understanding the letter to the Romans.

 

[klutedavid]

No. To be precise, the Romans killed Jesus. Why do you and others twist what Scripture clearly says?

Matthew 27:27-37, "Then the governor’s soldiers took Jesus into the Praetorium and gathered the whole company of soldiers around him. They stripped him and put a scarlet robe on him, and then twisted together a crown of thorns and set it on his head. They put a staff in his right hand. Then they knelt in front of him and mocked him. “Hail, king of the Jews!” they said. They spit on him, and took the staff and struck him on the head again and again. After they had mocked him, they took off the robe and put his own clothes on him. Then they led him away to crucify him.

As they were going out, they met a man from Cyrene, named Simon, and they forced him to carry the cross. They came to a place called Golgotha (which means “the place of the skull”). There they offered Jesus wine to drink, mixed with gall; but after tasting it, he refused to drink it. When they had crucified him, they divided up his clothes by casting lots. And sitting down, they kept watch over him there. Above his head they placed the written charge against him: this is Jesus, the king of the Jews.

I suggest that you and others read this over and over until you realize who killed Jesus!!

The Jews were not permitted to execute Jesus under Roman law, which they would have without hesitation. The charges were correct and Jesus was guilty.

Jesus was accused of breaking the Sabbath and claiming to be God, these charges were justified within Jewish law.

The Romans found Jesus innocent and only guilty of breaching Jewish, religious law. The procurator of Israel, Pilate, was reluctant to execute Jesus. Since Jesus had not broken Roman law.

The Jews were responsible for the execution of Jesus.

The Jews represented all of us in this matter. So we collectively are the ones that are really guilty, of the crucifixion of our creator.

 

[Pilgrims hope]

Amen. You don't know how refreshing it was to read your post. Thank you for the time you spent typing it, I 100% agree with what you said

it was refreshing to read yours to begin with brother and thank you also it needs to be said