What it means to have dead faith

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
This is an assumption. There are many people in nursing homes who perform no actions, yet they are alive.

Yes, because they still have a heart beat, they breathe, they eat, etc.

My point is that "no action" doesn't mean "no life" as so many seem to think.

Just so, their faith continues in trust in God’s promises.

Are you implying that faith WILL continue automatically?

And once they are “in Christ”, they are not cast out because they are no longer physically capable of doing “good works”.

I'm not sure what you are saying here.

Just as we are called to physically lay up for ourselves money to support ourselves when we are old, so too we lay up a treasure in Heaven that will “support us” in our old age.

Heaven is guaranteed for those who have believed, because they have been given eternal life, per John 5:24 and the result of being a recipient of eternal life is that they shall never perish, per John 10:28. Oh, and btw, those are words of Jesus.

 

[prophecy_uk]

Doug: "Salvation is a gift from God based on the work of God, but the reception of that gift by man is based on the faith of each man. If you have faith and I do not, then you receive the gift and I do not.

Now faith without action is dead and cannot transmit the gift of salvation.


And this faith MUST precede the reception of the gift, else it could not be the conduit through which the gift was received (as Eph 2:8-9 says it is)."




It is the faith of Christ, not our faith..

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Romans 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.



Need the Spirit ( Spirit of Christ) given to have faith in the Spirit

2 Corinthians 4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;

1 Corinthians 12:9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

 

[prophecy_uk]

Free: "That is NOT what James wa saying. ch 2:14-26 is an admonition for believers to DEMONSTRATE THEIR FAITH so they can "show their faith" to others, per v.18.

In no way was James saying that without fruit/deeds/works a believer will not be saved."



We spoke of it already, this is especially regarding the testimony of Abraham, as mentioned, and then without Abraham accounting that God was able to raise the dead ( the figure of Christ would not be received ( for us all/those promises of eternal life) to believe in, and the trying of the faith made perfect, works with the faith.


James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said: ↑
Are you saying salvation requires action??

I, and Scripture, most certainly do say that salvation from sin REQUIRES action on our part.

If that is true, then please quote the verse that says so.

Yes, if those were the only passages that spoke of salvation you would be correct.

It doesn't matter how few verses say something. Even just once is enough to believe.

And there are NO verses that contradict the verses I gave.

I could give you 24-25 verses that tell us that faith without anything else results in salvation/eternal life.

But to be an accurate doctrine, this must take into account EVERY passage of Scripture, and there are many that specify physical actions on our part to receive salvation.

Well, I am waiting for such verses. I don't believe you, so please share the verses that clearly indicate that physical action on our part is required to receive salvation.

I can list numerous passages, but I will not mow as I have many times already (but if you like, I will again).

Of course I would like you to. Because I have never seen any verse say that. If physical action was required, then Paul's answer to the jailer was wrong, incomplete.

The jailer asked Paul what he MUST DO to be saved. If that isn't asking what physical actions are required, Paul really screwed up, huh.

Not at all. This is taking Scripture as a whole, not just the parts I like (as many on this forum do). When taken as a whole we see that, yes, there are many passages that only state belief as a condition for the reception of salvation.

If any physical action is required, then ALL those that don't state physical action are WRONG. Simple as that.

But we cannot ignore the other passages that tell us that confession of the name of Jesus, out loud and before witnesses, leads to salvation (not flows from salvation). Not can we ignore the passages that say that repentance leads to the forgiveness of sin (a clear reference to salvation as it is sin that we are being saved from). Not can we ignore the many passages that state clearly that it is in baptism that we are United with Christ, the Spirit removes our sin, we are resurrected with Christ, we become “in Christ”; that the old man goes into the water and the new man comes out.

These passages are all part of the inspired Word of God. They cannot be removed or ignored and the Word remain complete. As with any quote of a human author, if you leave out portions of their statement so that it changes the meaning of what was said, then you have misrepresented their quote (and them). So too, if we leave out or ignore portions of Scripture, then you misrepresent God.

I'll be waiting for the verses that clearly indicate what physical actions are required for salvation.

btw, if there are, the Bible is quite contradicted. So keep that in mind when trying to prove your point.

I'll be able to congratulate you on proving the Bible is contradicted if you succeed.

 

[Doug Brents]

Is Gods sufficiency enough to save alone, does God alone save ? Salvation is of the Lord !

Let me ask you, is God’s will the only criteria on which salvation is based?

Before you answer, take note of 2 Per 3:9 where the Holy Spirit through Paul tells us that the will of God is that none should perish but that all should come to repentance (ie. salvation).

So then the answer must be that man’s will is also relevant in who is saved.

This is not to say that man can save himself. Nor is it to say that man, through his actions, can force God to give him salvation.
What it is saying is that God, of His own volition and without coercion, put salvation on the table as a fully complete, paid for, all in one gift. He then set conditions by which each individual must accept that gift and take it off the table into his own life.

 

[FreeGrace2]

How do dead people believe ?

Well, dead people don't do anything. Their souls are not there. And by the time people die, their destiny is cemented.

But if you are only speaking of spiritually dead people, then we have the answer from Rom 10:9. It says with their heart.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Works are obeying the commandment to have charity out of a pure heart( this is the work of God to believe ?)

I disagree. God does not cause belief.

John 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

This was in answer to the crowd's question of "what does God REQUIRE for eternal life?"

Since these Jews were very works salvation oriented, Jesus used their own words for His answer. And notice what Jesus meant by His answer: what God requires is believing on the Son, the Messiah.

1 Timothy 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:

1 Timothy 3:9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.

2 Timothy 2:22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

Hebrews 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

I'm not sure what you are trying to convey with these verses.

 

[prophecy_uk]

Freegrace: "I could give you 24-25 verses that tell us that faith without anything else results in salvation/eternal life."


Naturally you could, your nickname verifies that ?


But give, and stop witholding, and I will answer every single one if you like, as I do for everybody always.


But before that, salvation is by doing all, and equally, non salvation is by not doing all well, but doing all wickedly.



2 Peter 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:



Titus 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled.
16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Daniel 12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Is Gods sufficiency enough to save alone, does God alone save ? Salvation is of the Lord !

Does God save without our cooperation?

 

[Brightfame52]

Let me ask you, is God’s will the only criteria on which salvation is based?

Before you answer, take note of 2 Per 3:9 where the Holy Spirit through Paul tells us that the will of God is that none should perish but that all should come to repentance (ie. salvation).

So then the answer must be that man’s will is also relevant in who is saved.

This is not to say that man can save himself. Nor is it to say that man, through his actions, can force God to give him salvation.
What it is saying is that God, of His own volition and without coercion, put salvation on the table as a fully complete, paid for, all in one gift. He then set conditions by which each individual must accept that gift and take it off the table into his own life.

Yes, Salvation is according to the will of God.

 

[Brightfame52]

Well, dead people don't do anything. Their souls are not there. And by the time people die, their destiny is cemented.

But if you are only speaking of spiritually dead people, then we have the answer from Rom 10:9. It says with their heart.

Exactly. So they dont believe.

 

[Brightfame52]

Does God save without our cooperation?

Yes, how can a dead person cooperate with being made alive from the dead ?

 

[prophecy_uk]

Freegrace: "I disagree. God does not cause belief."




1 Corinthians 4:7 For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

Matthew 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.



Freegrace: "This was in answer to the crowd's question of "what does God REQUIRE for eternal life?"


He that believes and baptized ( of the baptism and circumcision made without hands) shall be saved

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Colossians 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Naturally you could, your nickname verifies that ?

In all actuality he really can’t, because he ignores context. He only pays attention to bits and pieces of God’s word, not it’s entirety. His theology is similar to a person reading one statement in the driver’s license handbook that says you can get your driver’s license at the age of 16 then walking into the DMV and saying I’m 16 give me my driver’s license then proceeds argues with the staff as they explain that the book also states that you must present a valid identification, proof of residency, and pass a written and driving test and his only defense is it says right here I can get my driver’s license at age 16. I’m 16 so you have to give it to me. He takes that one statement and builds his theology on it and ignores every other scripture that refutes it.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Freegrace: "I disagree. God does not cause belief."




1 Corinthians 4:7 For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it?

Matthew 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.



Freegrace: "This was in answer to the crowd's question of "what does God REQUIRE for eternal life?"


He that believes and baptized ( of the baptism and circumcision made without hands) shall be saved

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Colossians 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

Romans 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

God enables belief He doesn’t cause it. Romans 2:4-5 is evidence of this.

“Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:4-5‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[BNR32FAN]

Yes, how can a dead person cooperate with being made alive from the dead ?

That only proves that He must enable the person. That doesn’t ensure that the person will cooperate once he has been enabled. Romans 2:4-5

 

[prophecy_uk]

BN: "God enables belief He doesn’t cause it. Romans 2:4-5 is evidence of this.



I did not know you wanted an in depth look at Romans 2, well here we go.



Nobody escapes the judgment of God, O man.

Despising the forbearance and longsuffering of the Lord, is when any man ( whether they label themselves a believer or not) retains a hard heart, as that heart is the impenitent one, and one that has treasure on earth, but not so much in Heaven.

Then God renders to every man according to their deeds ( whether they think, or say they are a believer or not a believer)

The contentious do not obey the truth ( that is why they are on the forums for years, all different nicknames, multiple accounts, and contend for strife)

But the ones who do well, seek for eternal life, ( but the self seeking do evil and seek to turn the truth of God into a lie/unholiness)

It seems there is no respect of persons with God, regarding the book of life, they are fortunate if they do not have their names blotted out of the book of life.



Romans 2:3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Deuteronomy 29:20 The Lord will not spare him, but then the anger of the Lord and his jealousy shall smoke against that man, and all the curses that are written in this book shall lie upon him, and the Lord shall blot out his name from under heaven.



Continuing, the doers of the law shall be justified ( not the hearers only) and they which show the work of the law written in their heart ( this is the new covenant of God giving a soft heart of flesh to perceive with to keep all His ways that are righteousness/love, which works no ill to your neighbour)



Romans 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another.

 

[Doug Brents]

If that is true, then please quote the verse that says so.

At the end of this comment I will.

It doesn't matter how few verses say something. Even just once is enough to believe.

Let me ask you, what did it say on the plaque that was placed over Jesus’ head on the cross?
Mark 15:26 tells us it said simply “the King of the Jews”.
But Matthew tells us that it said “this is Jesus, the King of the Jews”.
And John tells us that it said “Jesus of Nazareth, King of the Jews” in three languages.
Was Mark wrong?
NO!! Incomplete, but not wrong.

So too are all the passages that say belief but nothing else. They are incomplete, but not wrong.

If any physical action is required, then ALL those that don't state physical action are WRONG. Simple as that.

A very immature viewpoint. Just because an instruction is incomplete does not make it wrong. It simply means that that was the only part of the instruction that was significant at that moment in that setting.

btw, if there are, the Bible is quite contradicted. So keep that in mind when trying to prove your point.

I'll be able to congratulate you on proving the Bible is contradicted if you succeed.

Again, just because one place in Scripture says one thing and another place something different does not make it contradictory. It only contradicts your interpretation of some of them. The question then is: are you more committed to your interpretation or to God’s Word?

So here we go:
Mark 16:16
Acts 2:38
Acts 3:19
Rom 10:9-10
1 Pet 3:21
Rom 6:1-11 focus on 3-4
Col 2:11-13
Eph 5:25-27
1 Cor 12:13
Gal 3:27
Acts 9:17-18 compared with Acts 22:12-16
Acts 10:34-38 compared with Acts 11:12-17

I did not list the myriad of passages that mention belief by itself because there are many, and as I said, they are incomplete.

However, I will mention that there is only one place in all of Scripture where “faith alone” or “faith only” or “belief alone” or “belief only” can be found in Scripture. And that is in James 2:24 - “You see then that a man is justified by his actions, and NOT faith only.”

 

[prophecy_uk]

Bn: "That only proves that He must enable the person. That doesn’t ensure that the person will cooperate once he has been enabled. Romans 2:4-5"




Stop hanging on two verses, when we go remember the Apostle Paul, enabled, and then see what is next..

1 Timothy 1:12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;



Paul was enabled, and chosen to know the will of the Father and then filled with the Holy Ghost ( new covenant of the law written in the heart). and chosen to suffer great things for the Lords sake....



Acts 22:14 And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.

Acts 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
16 For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.




BN: "That doesn’t ensure that the person will cooperate once he has been enabled"


Only your words against scripture.


But the law written in the heart and the eyes blinded, then released, is all insurance of cooperation, given the Spirit and the mission to do for the Lords sake ?


On top of that, woe is to anyone who defies God..


1 Corinthians 9:16 For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!
17 For if I do this thing willingly, I have a reward: but if against my will, a dispensation of the gospel is committed unto me.

 

[Doug Brents]

Yes, Salvation is according to the will of God.

LOL, you clearly didn’t read all of my post!