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Of the following spiritual gifts, which ones are still available and which ones have ceased?

swordsman1

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1) How are you measuring consensus? Can you substantiate this claim? How do you know the "overwhelming consensus" of commentators believe that the gift of apostleship ceased? Can you share the statistics?

I have read dozens of books by reputable professors and bible scholars that examine biblical apostleship, so I think that qualifies as a representative sample of all the books ever written. Every one that discusses the matter affirms that the office has ceased. I have not found a single scholar that claims apostles continue today. If you think that by chance the books I've read are not a representative sample, and I have missed a vast of quantity of scholars who say otherwise, now is the time to show me who they are.

2) Even if a majority of scholars agrees on something, that still doesn't guarantee you that they are right. Most biblical scholars used to believe the Earth was the center of the universe, until Galileo Galilei and subsequent scientists proved them wrong. Most scientists used to believe in classical / Newtonian mechanics, until Quantum Mechanics came along and proved them wrong, etc. The takeaway: scholar consensus / majority vote is no guarantee of truth. You have to judge arguments on their own merits, regardless of who says them.

You are not comparing like with like. Of course scientific discoveries are continually being made which cause scientists to change their theories. God's word however never changes, and nor does the correct interpretation thereof. Which is why you very rarely see massive shifts in scholarly consensus.

If you think all the scholars are wrong concerning the cessation of apostles, then you should write your own exposition, have it peer-reviewed and published by a reputable theological journal. Then, if you are correct, more and more scholars will come round to accepting your view and endorse it themselves. If a sizeable proportion do so, then we can say your argument has merit. If the majority agree with you, we can say you are probably correct. Until that happens, the notion of apostles continuing today remains on the theological scrapheap.


If many scholars agree on something, they must have very good arguments. Quote those arguments instead.

Ok, here's a couple more that I have scanned in. I have plenty more if you want them.

The Spirit of Promise - Donald Macleod
professor of systematic theology at the Free Church College (1978 to 2011)

Their charisma was clearly intended to be temporary, if only because it was an essential qualification that they should have seen the risen Christ. This is why Peter lays down in Acts 1:21-22 that the person chosen to replace Judas must be 'a witness with us of his resurrection'. Paul clearly related his apostleship to the same fact: 'Last of all, he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. For I am the least of the apostles' (1 Cor. 15: 8, 9). The Galatian denial of his apostleship also revolved around this issue: He was no real apostle because he had never seen Christ and had received his gospel only at second–hand. Paul protests vigorously that he had not received his gospel from men but had been taught it by a revelation of Jesus Christ (Gal. 1:12). His call to be an apostle was intimately bound up with his having seen the Son of God (Gal. 1:16).

The argument from the unrepeatable nature of apostolic qualifications is reinforced by the fact that the apostles never designated successors; nor did they lay down the qualifications such successors should have. They were content to leave the founding of new churches to evangelists and the care of existing ones to pastors and teachers. The nearest we have to a successor to the apostles is Timothy and he is spoken of only as an evangelist, whose authority does not go beyond enacting in the churches the arrangements which Paul lays down.

The temporary nature of the apostolate is implied in its very nature. It was foundational: the church is built 'on the foundation of the apostles and prophets' (Eph. 2: 20). The same idea occurs in Rev. 21:14, which tells us that the walls of New Jerusalem had twelve foundations inscribed with the names of the twelve apostles. It is true, of course, that the building of the spiritual temple goes on throughout the Christian era (1 Peter 2: 5) as each stone is chosen and prepared. But the laying of the foundation takes place once and for all in the period of the incarnation. Christ is the chief cornerstone. The apostles are the foundation. The once–for–allness of this is clearly seen in the New Testament itself. Just as Christ was once offered, so the faith was once delivered to the saints (Jude 3).

Consequently, the proper attitude to apostolic tradition is not to develop and add to it but to 'hold it fast' (2 Thess. 2:15). It is a sacred trust to be kept (1 Tim. 6:20).

The uniqueness of the apostolic period at the time of authoritative foundation–laying is integral to the New Testament and Oscar Cullmann is fully justified in asserting that, 'the scandal of Christianity is to believe that these few years, which for secular history have no more and no less significance than other periods, are the centre and the norm of the totality of time' .


A Bible Handbook to the Acts of the Apostles - Mal Couch
Professor of Theology & Languages at Tyndale Theological Seminary

After Jesus' earthly ministry and ascension, the most important individuals left to carry on His work in the world were the apostles. The establishing of the church, the reception of the church's doctrine, and the spread of the gospel of Christ were largely dependent on the apostles. Since the apostles cast such a large shadow over the New Testament, it is essential to understand what we can about them and the ministry that was given to them.

What Is an Apostle?

The Greek word apostolos simply means "one sent forth." In older Greek literature it was a maritime or military term. A naval fleet dispatched on some expedition was called "the apostle." But in the Greek world before the New Testament the term was never used of a personal representative or emissary. Numerous terms were used for religious messengers or representatives, but apostle was not one of them.

When Jesus selected twelve men to associate closely with Him and to represent Him, He gave them the title apostles. Jesus clearly did not borrow the word from current Greek thought. And yet it does not seem that Jesus was using this term in an entirely new way. The evidence is that He was simply adopting a word then in current use among the Jews. The Jewish use of apostle carried with it the idea of one who was an official delegate of another. That usage is well known from literature after the fall of Jerusalem. But since it is highly unlikely that they borrowed it from the hated Christians, it was probably in use in Jesus' day. Likely. He simply adopted a familiar term. In Jewish usage, an apostle held a highly responsible position with power and authority to act for the sender.' And while this context is valuable to our understanding, it is the use of the word in the New Testament that decisively establishes its meaning and theological significance in relationship to the church.

From the almost eighty uses of the word "apostle" (mainly by Luke and Paul), it can be concluded that an apostle was one sent with authority to represent another. The word carries with it the idea of a special commission and special empowerment as one spoke and acted with the authority of the sender. The apostles of Christ were granted great power and authority, with which they authenticated their message and laid the foundation of Christ's church (Luke 9:1-6; 2 Cor. 12:12).

So an apostle is one sent by Christ with authority to represent Him. In passing, it should be noted that an apostle is distinct from a disciple. While it is true that the words were used of the same individuals, they are not synonymous. A disciple (mathetes) is simply a "follower or learner." Jesus had thousands of disciples, and it was from among His many disciples that He selected the twelve apostles (Luke 6:12-13).

The Twelve Apostles

When Jesus established the office of apostle, He selected twelve men to fill it. These twelve men had been with Him since the days of John the Baptist and had, therefore, seen Jesus' miraculous works and heard His insightful and authoritative teachings. Each would be a witness of His resurrection (Acts 1:22-23). The twelve apostles are listed in four different passages of Scripture (Matt. 10:2-4; Mark 3:16–19; Luke 6:14-16; Acts 1:13).

The ranks of the Twelve were soon reduced to eleven with the defection and death of the traitor, Judas Iscariot. After the ascension of Christ it was the clear conviction of Peter and the others that this vacancy needed to be filled immediately. They saw it as a subject of Old Testament prophecy (Acts 1:16-26; cf. Pss. 69:25; 109:8). Two qualified men who had seen the resurrected Christ and had been with Jesus from the beginning of His ministry were set forth as possible replacements. The apostles left the decision to the Lord in the casting of lots, and Matthias was chosen to replace Judas Iscariot.

It has been the opinion of some that Paul, not Matthias, was truly God's choice to the be twelfth apostle. But Paul never claimed to be one of the Twelve. Rather, he viewed his apostleship as distinct (cf. Gal. 1:11-17, 2:2-9). Also, it is difficult to believe that Peter and the rest of the apostles would have made such a bold move in replacing Judas Iscariot simply on their own initiative. Instead, they saw their action as a fulfillment of Scripture, which would seem to suggest that this was something the Lord Jesus instructed them to do.

The Apostle Paul

Though not one of the Twelve, Paul must be seen as a true apostle of Jesus Christ. Clearly and forcefully he declared that he was an apostle, equal in authority with the Twelve (1 Cor. 1:1; 9:1-5; 2 Cor. 1:1; 11:5; Gal. 1:1-2:15; 2Tim. 1:1, 11). Luke also presented Paul as a true apostle of Jesus Christ. Luke, who had spoken often of the twelve apostles, did not restrict the use of the word apostle to just the Twelve but expanded it to include Paul (e.g., Acts 14:4, 14).

Although Paul did not accompany Jesus during His ministry (which was a requirement to be one of the Twelve), he did see the resurrected Lord Jesus. Paul did not have a vision on the Damascus Road but actually saw the risen Christ that day (cf. Acts 9:3-7, 17; 22:6-9; 26:12-16; 1 Cor. 15:8). Although he was untimely born (1 Cor. 15:8), he nevertheless was a true apostle of Christ.

Other Apostles

The term apostle attaches to others as well. They may not have been as prominent as Paul or the Twelve, but that does not automatically mean that they held an inferior rank. Other factors are involved in making such a determination. One such individual who is classified as an apostle is Barnabas.

As Luke records the missionary activity of the early church, he refers to Barnabas and Paul as apostles, treating them as equals. In fact, Luke places Barnabas ahead of Paul in his discussion (cf. Acts 14:4, 14). Later on, Paul himself sees Barnabas as an associate in his apostleship to the Gentiles (cf. Gal. 2:1-9) and as one holding the office of apostle (cf. 1 Cor. 9:5-6).

Another possible apostle is James, the Lord's brother. James became a prominent part of the Jerusalem church and seems to be included by Paul in the ranks of the apostles as an equal with Peter (cf. Gal. 1:19). James is individually mentioned as one eyewitness of the resurrection of Christ but, at the same time, he is also included in the group of apostles (1 Cor 15:7).James could have been like Paul in that he was an apostle who was untimely born (1 Cor. 15:8).

It is quite likely that the term was applied to many others besides these fifteen. If the concept was restricted to just these men, why were early churches fooled by some who claimed to be apostles but were not. That there were false apostles who brought confusion into the church is seen in several passages (2 Cor. 11:13-15; Rev. 2:2). The early church apparently allowed for some flexibility in the use of the term, although Paul and the Twelve seem to be especially esteemed as apostles of Christ.

The Scriptures speak of the "gift" of an apostle (Eph. 4:11), which also seems to suggest a larger group than Paul and the Twelve. Paul uses the term to describe Junia and Andronicus (Rom. 16:7) and the Lord's brothers (1 Cor. 9:5). However, in regards to these individuals the word is apparently used in a broader sense of being authorized messengers of the churches (see 2 Cor. 8:23; Phil. 2:25).

A case can be built that these are apostles in the sense of being authorized messengers of the churches but not authoritative representatives of Jesus Christ (like the Twelve). These individuals certainly did not have the same influence or status as Paul and the Twelve.

The Extent of the Apostolic Office

What were the requirements for those apostles who had official authority? Several things had to be true before one could legitimately claim to be an apostle of Jesus Christ. First, they had to have been called by Christ Himself. The very idea of one being an authoritative representative of another would point to this. The direct hand of the Lord is seen in the selection of the Twelve (Luke 6:12-13), the choice of Paul (1 Cor. 15:8; Gal. 1:1), and the replacement of Judas by Matthias (Acts 1:21-26). Of course, without any scriptural verification it can only be speculated whether this was true of Barnabas and James, the Lord's brother.

Second, it was necessary that an apostle actually saw the resurrected Lord Jesus. Since the resurrection of Christ is foundational to the faith, he had to be able to testify from firsthand knowledge to this fundamental reality (Acts 1:21-23; 1 Cor. 9:1; 15:7-9).

Third, he had to be able to demonstrate the "signs of a true apostle," which was the ability to work miracles and demonstrate works of power (Matt. 28:18-20; Acts 2:43; 5:12; 2 Cor. 12:12; Heb. 2:4). These demonstrations of power validated the claim that they were authoritative representatives of the Lord Christ.

There is no compelling evidence for the idea of apostolic succession. The only apostle who was ever replaced was Judas Iscariot by Matthias and that was necessary to complete the ranks of the Twelve (cf. Matt. 19:28; Rev. 21:14). Later when James, who was one of the Twelve, was put to death by Herod Agrippa I (Acts 12:1-2), the church did not replace him. And there is no record of any other apostle being succeeded at death.

If apostolic succession was required and needed, Paul, for example, certainly would have addressed the crucial matter of his apostolic replacement when he clearly was facing death (2 Tim.4), but he does not even hint at such a thing. It also should be noted that, in light of the requirements for a true apostle, no one after the first century could qualify. No one since that time has seen the risen Christ, and no one could have been with the Lord Jesus during His earthly ministry. Also, it must be remembered that one who claims the office of an apostle must be able to work the supernatural signs of a true apostle. The inability to perform sign miracles clearly shows that such claims are false.

So it is necessary to conclude that there are no apostles in the church today. Nor are any needed, for their work was foundational in nature. Theirs was a gift and a ministry of establishing the church and its doctrine (John 14:26, 16:12–13; Eph.2:20). Once the church had been established on a proper foundation and the Scriptures for the church had been given and authenticated, the foundational ministry was completed. These facts should caution us not to dilute the concept of an apostle by viewing those who do missionary work today as modern apostles.

Did Peter occupy a primary place among the apostles? Jesus addressed Peter and said "upon this rock I will build My church" (Matt. 16:16-19). If one interprets the "rock" as a personal reference to Peter, the primacy of Peter has been taught. In an attempt to avoid this conclusion, some have suggested that the "rock" refers to Peter's great confession about Christ, while others have reasoned that it refers to Christ Himself. It seems clear from the grammar of this passage, and from the way it was generally understood in early church history, that the rock is Christ.

The apostle Paul confirms this in Ephesians 2:20 when he writes that "Christ Jesus Himself is the cornerstone" of the church. He points out that the apostles and prophets, too, are the foundation for the household of the saints (v. 19). For a complete discussion on the grammatical and contextual issues, see pages 51-58.

It is true that the Lord did have a special role for Peter in initially opening the door into the church, first to the Jewish nation, then to the Samaritans, and finally to the Gentiles (cf. Acts 2:5-47; 8:14-17; 10:1-48; 15:7). But the idea that Peter had a position as Christ's unique representative on earth was foreign to Peter and the rest of the apostles and is absent from the writings of the New Testament (e.g., Gal. 2:11-14; 1 Peter 5:1-5). In fact, at the Jerusalem Council (Acts 15), James, not Peter, played the more significant role.
 
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swordsman1

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Sure, I can concede that point of the definition if you want. I never questioned that point. As I said in my previous post, what is totally unjustified is the following claim by Wayne (quote):

It seems that no apostles were appointed after Paul, and certainly, since no one today can meet the qualification of having seen the risen Christ with his own eyes, there are no apostles today. [...]

Did you not read the following (under a. Qualifications of an Apostle)...

And when recounting the people to whom Christ appeared after his resurrection, Paul says, “Then he appeared to James then to all the apostles. Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me. For I am the least of the apostles, unfit to be called an apostle” (1 Cor. 15:7–9).​

Grudem elaborates when he discusses the apostleship of Paul. I clipped the section where Grudem discusses each of the apostles outside of the 12 in my original post (replacing it with "...").

Yet it seems quite certain that there were none appointed after Paul. When Paul lists the resurrection appearances of Christ, he emphasizes the unusual way in which Christ appeared to him, and connects that with the statement that this was the “last” appearance of all, and that he himself is indeed “the least of the apostles, unfit to be called an apostle.”​

Wayne is claiming that no one can see the risen Christ, which is completely false if you believe in an omnipotent God. Have you ever heard of Christophanies? Have you read/watched testimonies of Muslims who have had encounters with Jesus Christ? If Paul had a supernatural encounter with the post-ascension Jesus, if Stephen had a vision of the open heavens and saw Jesus Christ at the right hand of God, if Ananias was able to have an actual conversation with the Lord Jesus Christ (see Acts 9), what makes you think that Jesus Christ cannot show up supernaturally to people again? Are you really going to put God in a box like that?

Receiving an internal vision of Jesus Christ, even if genuine and not your mind playing tricks, is not being an 'eye-witness' of Him. You need to have seen him physically with your own eyes, which is what Paul claimed to have done in 1 Cor 9:1. It was no vision that Paul experienced on the Damascus Road, his companions also saw the same light with their own eyes too.

How many people today can say, with witnesses, they have physically seen Christ, and have been personally commissioned by him to be an apostle? Exactly who are the apostles who you claim continue to this day? Can you name a few?


There is no reason to think that they shouldn't be around either, and lots of reason to think they are quite useful and necessary. All the scriptures attest to the value and usefulness of prophets and apostles. Furthermore, the church is very much in need of sold-out servants of God like apostles, prophets, evangelists, etc. Have you ever heard of revivals? How can you have a revival without a critical mass of servants of God who are full of the Spirit and on-fire for God?

The reason we don't have apostles today is because we have the completed New Testament canon. Apostles were authoritative spokesmen for Christ (Luke 10:16, 2 Peter 3:2, 1 Cor. 14:37, 2 Cor 13:3, 1 Thes 2:13, 1 Thes 4:8, 15) and hence could even write scripture. Nobody today has that authority. Otherwise the canon would still be open.


This reasoning makes no sense. By the same token, United States in its current form is historically founded on the efforts of dozens of Presidents and politicians over more than 200 years of history. Does that mean that U.S. Presidents have ceased? Does that mean that Politicians have ceased?

That is a poor analogy because we all know that new presidents get elected on a regular basis. A better analogy would be the founders of an organisation. For example the Salvation Army was built on the foundation of William Booth. What he achieved in founding the Salvation Army is now unrepeatable.

When the perfect comes:

For a start 'the perfect' is a disputed translation of the Greek word telios in verse 10. Any lexicon will tell you that 'teleios' can mean perfect, mature, or complete. When a word has multiple meanings we have to look at the context to decide which is the correct translation and it becomes obvious ‘completeness’ is the better word for the following reasons:
  • It is clear ‘ek merous’ (in part) and ‘teleios’ (completeness or the perfect) are in antithesis with each other. If it is translated as ‘the perfect’ you are awkwardly pitting a quantitative concept (in part) against a qualitative concept (perfect). If it is translated ‘completeness’ there is no such tension.
  • The equivalent antithesis pair in v12 (‘in part’ and ‘fully’) are both quantitative.
  • It makes far better grammatical sense - the incomplete will be replaced by the complete.

Many bible versions such as the NIV have realised this and have changed their translations from "the perfect" to "completeness". About a third of bibles now have ‘completeness’ (or similar wording) in their translations and I suspect more and more translation committees will likewise follow suit in their future editions.


When the perfect comes:
  • We will have perfect knowledge (no more partial knowledge).
  • We will see face to face (i.e. crystal clear, no more ambiguity, no more unclear, mysterious revelations).
  • We will achieve full maturity (no more childish ways).

All those aspects apply equally to a completed NT canon.

  • We will have a perfect and complete revelation of God to man. No more 'in part' prophecies as a substitute.
  • When we have the complete NT it is like seeing 'face to face' in comparison to the broken mirror of piecemeal prophecies.
  • The church became a mature church when it received the completed NT canon.


Are we really seeing face to face now? Really? See this question: When shall we see “face to face”? 1 Corinthians 13:12

'Face to face' in v12 is not referring to seeing Christ as the continuationists in your StackExchange link suppose. There is no mention of Christ in this passage. 'Face to face' is referring to the analogy of a mirror. At the time of Paul's writing, when church had to rely on piecemeal prophecies for guidance in the faith in the absence of the NT, it was like seeing dimly in a poor mirror (mirrors were poor quality in those days). But when 'completeness' came, it would be like looking at someone 'face to face'. Prophecies would cease and we would have God's revelation to man presented in a far superior way.


Do we really have access to the full knowledge and understanding of the mysteries of the kingdom of God now? Do we really have answers to all the questions? Even with the Bible at hand, there are lots of disagreements, ambiguities, controversies, conflicting interpretations, mysteries about God, the spirit realm and even the physical realm that we currently have no clue about. Hundreds of denominations, sub-denominations, debates, disagreements. Even with the Bible at hand, there is no clarity. How come we have "perfect knowledge" when very clearly everybody has a different interpretation of Scripture and even scholars don't agree with each other? The very fact that we are having this discussion is a testament to the fact that we don't have perfect knowledge right now.

1 Cor 13:12 does not say we receice "full knowledge and understanding of the mysteries of the kingdom of God". It simply say "Now I know in part; then I shall know fully,". Before the NT came man's knowledge of the New Testament doctrine was "in part", when it arrived man would fully know God's word.

Have we really achieved full maturity? Are we in glorified bodies now? Are we beyond the sinful tendencies of the fallen human nature? Are really going to call this "the perfect"? C'mon ...

Again, the passage says nothing about glorified bodies. It simply says "When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me." The analogy of a child maturing into a man in v11 indicates that the process would not be an instantaneous one (as would happen at the 2nd coming) but rather something that occurs over a period of time - such as the completed canon being distributed among the churches.

This ties in perfectly with church history where the early church fathers (100-200AD) said tongues were still active, the middle fathers (200-300 AD) saying they are rare, and the late fathers (300-400AD) saying the gift had ceased

Also consider...

In v13 it says that faith hope and love would remain after the 3 gifts had ceased. The greatest is love because love never ceases (v8), but faith and hope cease at the 2nd coming when they become reality: Heb 11:1 "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen."; 2 Cor 5:6-7 "while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord - for we walk by faith, not by sight"; Rom 8:24 "but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees?". So if faith and hope cease at the 2nd coming and outlast the 3 gifts then the 3 gifts must cease before the 2nd coming.

If Paul was referring to the 2nd coming, then it wouldn't just be prophecy, words of knowledge, and tongues that will cease. All the spiritual gifts will cease. In the eternal state there will be no need for healers, pastors, teachers, evangelists, giving, faith, discernment of spirits, etc. Yet Paul makes no mention of those ceasing.

“Completeness” is the antithesis of “in part”, so it is obvious these two quantitative expressions are related. Whatever ‘in part’ is referring to, almost certainly applies to ‘completeness’. That which is ‘in part’ is the practice of the gifts of prophecy and words of knowledge (v9), both of which are revelations from God. It follows therefore that ‘completeness’ would also involve revelation. “In part” refers to the fact that the revelation communicated by these gifts was partial or piecemeal. The corresponding “completeness”, as the counterpart to “in part” must then refer to a full or complete revelation from God. This can only be seen as the completed revelation God as preserved in the New Testament. At the time of Paul's writing the early church needed prophecy and words of knowledge to guide them in the faith in the absence of a New Testament. However when a church had a completed canon, it would no longer need the gift of prophecy to guide them. Thus, the completed canon would replace the partial prophecies and words of knowledge.


Furthermore, the "Christ's return" interpretation fits perfectly with 1 Corinthians 1:7-8:

7 so that you are not lacking in any gift, as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ, 8 who will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Paul explicitly encouraged the pursuit of spiritual gifts until .. what? Until the canon was complete? No! Until the day of our Lord Jesus Christ!!!

No, Paul did not say that. Not lacking in gifts and WAITING for the return of Christ are on the same timeline. Paul said the Corinthians possessed both attributes at the time of Paul's writing. He did not say the Corinthians the would have the full measure of gifts UNTIL the return of Christ. That is reading something into the text that isn't there.

Of course the immediate addressees of the letter were the Corinthians, but letter has a clear application to all Christendom at large. Read 1 Cor 1:2 again:

"To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with ALL THOSE WHO IN EVERY PLACE call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ"

No, Paul is not extending the addressees of the letter here. If you take a closer look at the passage you quoted you would see what lies immediately before your capitalized text: "called to be saints together with ALL THOSE WHO IN EVERY PLACE call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ". Paul's "together" is not extending the addressees, but telling the Corinthians they are called to be God's people along with all who call on the name of our Lord.


Furthermore, 1 Cor 12 makes very clear that Paul is teaching principles that apply to the entire body of Christ, i.e. the totality of all believers, not just the Corinthians:

12 For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. 13 For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit. [1 Cor 12:12-13, ESV]

27 Now you are the body of Christ and individually members of it. 28 And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues. 29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? 31 But earnestly desire the higher gifts. [1 Cor 12:27-31, ESV]

Paul is talking about the body of Christ, the entire church, not just the Corinthians.

That doesn't mean all those parts of the body have to have to be represented by a physical person. After all the head of the body, Christ, is not here personally.

Notice the past tense in v28. God did indeed appoint apostles. But there is nothing in the text that says he must continue to do so.


1) How do you know tongues ceased completely? Evidence of decline is not the same as evidence of complete cessation. To prove complete cessation, you would need to be able to travel in time and verify that no one, at any time, ever spoke in tongues since the canon was closed until today. You can't do that. At best you can speculate.

2) Temporal decline followed by a resurgence at a later time of some manifestation of the Spirit is not something that should surprise us. There have been other periods in history where there have been (for example) no prophecies such as:
  • 1 Sam 3:1 - And the boy Samuel ministered to the LORD before Eli. Now in those days the word of the LORD was rare and visions were scarce.
  • The inter-testamental period of about 400 years between Malachi and Matthew.
Thus, the gifts of the Spirit are neither continuous nor uniform but always according to the will and discretion of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 12:11). A temporal decline is no proof of complete cessation.

The lack of tongues is strong evidence for its cessation. If tongue speaking didn't cease, then where are the historic records to show this was an ongoing activity within the mainstream church? Outside of heretics or catholics claiming miracles for their saints, there is no firm evidence whatsoever. If you think tongues speakers were holed up in caves somewhere hidden away from public attention then you need to provide evidence for that too.

We know for a fact that by around 300AD the church fathers had unequivocally declared the gift to have ceased. And that has remained the commonly accepted position throughout church history. Therefore the burden of proof is on you to prove they continued, not on me to prove they ceased.


Applying your own standards: can you share a peer-reviewed scientific publication with independently verified evidence of Xenoglossy in the first century? Would you be so kind to provide scientific proof that the book of Acts chapter 2 took place? Can you even cite unbiased, secular historians affirming that Acts chapter 2 was a historical fact?

The fact Xenoglossy is recorded in scripture is even better evidence than peer-reviewed scientific evidence, or an army of historians. (John 17:17)


Sure, I can agree that that appears to be most common use case, but that doesn't mean they are no longer useful.

I'm sure the recipients of the NT miracles found them very useful. Who wouldn't want to be healed of a life-long disability? But that wasn't the only, or even the main reason for miracles. As I have shown from scripture the main reason was for authentication purposes.
 
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TruthSeek3r

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I'll be a little bit busy for a few days, so I won't be able to respond to all your points for a while. But in the meantime, I wanted to address a specific point. Quote:

We know for a fact that by around 300AD the church fathers had unequivocally declared the gift to have ceased. And that has remained the commonly accepted position throughout church history. Therefore the burden of proof is on you to prove they continued, not on me to prove they ceased.

You cannot be a cessationist if you do not believe that the gift of tongues was active at some point. Therefore, as a cessationist, you are still committed to make the positive claim that the gift of tongues was active in the first century, and the burden of proof is on you to prove that that was actually the case.

Regarding this point, you said:

The fact Xenoglossy is recorded in scripture is even better evidence than peer-reviewed scientific evidence, or an army of historians. (John 17:17)

This argument would only work if you prove first that Acts chapter 2 was supernaturally inspired by God. That's an extraordinary claim. I hope you have extraordinary evidence, published in peer-reviewed scientific journals.

Can you share any scientific proofs that Acts chapter 2 was supernaturally inspired by God?

Also, what do you make of all the overwhelming testimonial evidence for the continuation of miracles and the gifts of the Spirit? For example, check out this question and its answer. Also see:
Also check out these testimonies:
 
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Hezekiah81

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In 1 Corinthians 12:4-11 we find the following gifts:
  • utterance of wisdom
  • utterance of knowledge
  • faith
  • gifts of healing
  • working of miracles
  • prophecy
  • the ability to distinguish between spirits
  • various kinds of tongues
  • interpretation of tongues
Then, in verses 27-31 of the same chapter we find another list of gifts:
  • apostles
  • prophets
  • teachers
  • miracles
  • gifts of healing
  • helping
  • administrating
  • various kinds of tongues
  • interpretation of tongues
Romans 12:3-8 also contains a list of spiritual gifts:
  • prophecy
  • service
  • teaching
  • exhortation
  • contribution / generosity
  • leadership
  • acts of mercy
Ephesians 4:11-12 lists the following:
  • apostles
  • prophets
  • evangelists
  • shepherds
  • teachers
Question: Which of the gifts listed above are still available to the body of Christ and which ones have ceased?
All these gifts are available and God most high hand picks which gifts to bestow on his own born of him.
 
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Saint Steven

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But they were led by the Holy Spirit, it's not that they could just randomly heal people at will. It was only led by the Spirit. Even Jesus couldn't heal people and perform miracles sometimes due to people's lack of faith. Matthew 13:18: And he did not do many mighty works there, because of their unbelief.
That's a great point that few understand.
Jesus performed healing in his humanity, not in his deity.
God worked through him, just as God works through us.
He showed us how to do it. Following the promptings of the Father.

John 5:19 NIV
Jesus gave them this answer: “Very truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does.
 
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swordsman1

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You cannot be a cessationist if you do not believe that the gift of tongues was active at some point. Therefore, as a cessationist, you are still committed to make the positive claim that the gift of tongues was active in the first century, and the burden of proof is on you to prove that that was actually the case.

Of course the gifts in question were active in the first century. They are recorded in scripture.

This argument would only work if you prove first that Acts chapter 2 was supernaturally inspired by God. That's an extraordinary claim

Of course Acts 2 is inspired by God. I'm surprised you didn't know that.

2 Tim 3:16 "All Scripture is inspired by God and beneficial for teaching, for rebuke, for correction, for training in righteousness"


Also, what do you make of all the overwhelming testimonial evidence for the continuation of miracles and the gifts of the Spirit? For example, check out this question and its answer. Also see:
Also check out these testimonies:

Testimonial evidence is not proof.

There are stories of people being abducted by UFO's and they also swear it's true. Should I believe them too? People can be mistaken, people can exaggerate, people can lie.

An unsubstantiated story is not proof that it happened. That is called hearsay and such evidence is inadmissible in a court of law.
 
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RDKirk

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Testimonial evidence is not proof.

There are stories of people being abducted by UFO's and they also swear it's true. Should I believe them too? People can be mistaken, people can exaggerate, people can lie.

An unsubstantiated story is not proof that it happened. That is called hearsay and such evidence is inadmissible in a court of law.

You got a couple of crucial things wrong there.

Scripturally, testimonial evidence of the same event by two or three witnesses is to be taken as proof. Whether you like it or not, God has told us to accept it. And even secular law accepts it.

Second, eye witness testimony is not considered hearsay, not even by secular courts. Eyewitness testimony is accepted in courts of law all over the world every day.
 
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swordsman1

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You got a couple of crucial things wrong there.

Scripturally, testimonial evidence of the same event by two or three witnesses is to be taken as proof. Whether you like it or not, God has told us to accept it. And even secular law accepts it.

Second, eye witness testimony is not considered hearsay, not even by secular courts. Eyewitness testimony is accepted in courts of law all over the world every day.


That is only true those 2 or more witnesses appear in court in person under oath and are available for cross examination.

Unsubstantiated stories from third parties is Hearsay and it is inadmissible evidence in court.

Hearsay - Wikipedia
 
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RDKirk

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That is only true those 2 or more witnesses appear in court in person under oath and are available for cross examination.

Unsubstantiated stories from third parties is Hearsay and it is inadmissible evidence in court.

Hearsay - Wikipedia

Moving the goalpost.gif
 
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TruthSeek3r

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Of course the gifts in question were active in the first century. They are recorded in scripture.

Well, this kind of sounds like circular reasoning (more formally known as the fallacy of begging the question - Begging the question - Wikipedia). When asked why Acts 2 is factually true, you claim that it is true because it is in scripture, which means that you are axiomatically assuming that scripture is true, and since Acts 2 is part of scripture, it must be true. It's like saying "Acts 2 is true because Acts 2 plus other writings are true". Do you realize how little convincing that argument is?

Of course Acts 2 is inspired by God. I'm surprised you didn't know that.

2 Tim 3:16 "All Scripture is inspired by God and beneficial for teaching, for rebuke, for correction, for training in righteousness"

Here you are making several assumptions that you have not justified:
  • How do you know that 2 Timothy 3:16 was supernaturally inspired by God?
  • How do you know that Acts chapter 2 is part of the canon of Scripture?
  • If the author of 2 Timothy was Paul, it's very well possible that 2 Timothy was written before the book of Acts was written. How can you know then that 2 Timothy 3:16 applies to the book of Acts as well?
Testimonial evidence is not proof.

If we are going to be skeptical, then technically speaking nothing is proof then. The universe could've been created 5 seconds ago with the appearance of age and all our memories might have been implanted, we could be brains in a vat, we might be plugged into the Matrix, etc. Whatever "proof" you might present can be dismissed as an illusion of the Matrix, etc.

There are stories of people being abducted by UFO's and they also swear it's true. Should I believe them too? People can be mistaken, people can exaggerate, people can lie.

I would say that yeah, you can't just dismiss the overwhelming testimonial evidence for alien abduction experiences. But I would add that there is evidence as well that those experiences are very likely demonic in nature, and there are lots of testimonies of alien abductions that were stopped in the name of Jesus. See the following resources:
I would also add that many people who have contacted "aliens" are led by these entities into the New Age movement, and, guess what, there are tons of testimonies of people leaving the New Age movement and accepting Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior, right now. Just search on YouTube "New Age to Jesus" or even just "New Age testimony" and you will find tons and tons of testimonies that people are uploading all the time.

An unsubstantiated story is not proof that it happened. That is called hearsay and such evidence is inadmissible in a court of law.

Do you have scientific evidence substantiating the stories of Acts chapter 2?
 
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swordsman1

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Well, this kind of sounds like circular reasoning (more formally known as the fallacy of begging the question - Begging the question - Wikipedia). When asked why Acts 2 is factually true, you claim that it is true because it is in scripture, which means that you are axiomatically assuming that scripture is true, and since Acts 2 is part of scripture, it must be true. It's like saying "Acts 2 is true because Acts 2 plus other writings are true". Do you realize how little convincing that argument is?



Here you are making several assumptions that you have not justified:
  • How do you know that 2 Timothy 3:16 was supernaturally inspired by God?
  • How do you know that Acts chapter 2 is part of the canon of Scripture?
  • If the author of 2 Timothy was Paul, it's very possible that this was written before the book of Acts was written. How do you know 2 Timothy 3:16 applies to the book of Acts as well?


If we are going to be skeptical, then technically speaking nothing is proof then. The universe could've been created 5 seconds ago with the appearance of age and all our memories might have been implanted, we could be brains in a vat, we might be plugged into the Matrix, etc. Whatever "proof" you might present can be dismissed as an illusion of the Matrix, etc.



I would say that yeah, you can't just dismiss the overwhelming testimonial evidence for alien abduction experiences. But I would add that there is evidence as well that those experiences are very likely demonic in nature, and there are lots of testimonies of alien abductions that were stopped in the name of Jesus. See the following resources:
I would also add that many people who have contacted "aliens" are led by these entities into the New Age movement, and, guess what, there are tons of testimonies of people leaving the New Age movement and accepting Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior, right now. Just search on YouTube "New Age to Jesus" or even just "New Age testimony" and you will find tons and tons of testimonies that people are uploading all the time.



Do you have scientific evidence substantiating the stories of Acts chapter 2?

So you don't believe the events recorded in the bible are true. And you don't believe the bible is the inspired word of God. But you do believe in alien abductions.

Hmmmmm.........

I think you've joined the wrong forum.
 
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TruthSeek3r

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So you don't believe the events recorded in the bible are true. And you don't believe the bible is the inspired word of God.

When did I say that? Can you share a quote where I explicitly say that I don't believe the bible is the inspired word of God?

But you do believe in alien abductions.

I believe that the overwhelming testimonial evidence for alien abductions is indicative that these people are truly having genuine experiences. BUT, I don't think they are necessarily aliens per se, because there is evidence as well that many of these alien abduction experiences are DEMONIC in nature, i.e., they are not aliens, but demons.

By the way, regarding your skepticism toward testimonial evidence, I recommend you to watch the following video from the channel Capturing Christianity:

Before You Watch Another Matt Dillahunty Debate, WATCH THIS!
 
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swordsman1

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When did I say that? Can you share a quote where I explicitly say that I don't believe the bible is the inspired word of God?

Asking for proof that the bible is true and inspired would indicate you are a sceptic. If you already believe the bible is true and inspired, then I have no need to convince you.

I believe that the overwhelming testimonial evidence for alien abductions is indicative that these people are truly having genuine experiences. BUT, I don't think they are necessarily aliens per se, because there is evidence as well that many of these alien abduction experiences are DEMONIC in nature, i.e., they are not aliens, but demons.

Those people swear they were abducted by UFO's and experimented upon by aliens. If you believe testimonial evidence alone as being proof then you must also accept these accounts really happened.
 
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TruthSeek3r

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Asking for proof that the bible is true and inspired would indicate you are a sceptic. If you already believe the bible is true and inspired, then I have no need to convince you.

Whatever I believe or don't believe is irrelevant. You, as a cessationist, are making the extraordinary claim that Acts chapter 2 was a historical fact, that xenoglossia actually took place. Therefore, the burden of proof is on you to show that. It doesn't matter if I believe or not, or if my neighbor around the corner believes or not. What matters is that you provide compelling evidence to meet the burden of proof you have for such an extraordinary claim you are making.

Thus, please, would you be so kind to prove that Acts chapter 2 truly happened, without committing the fallacy of begging the question?

Those people swear they were abducted by UFO's and experimented upon by aliens. If you believe testimonial evidence alone as being proof then you must also accept these accounts really happened.

When analyzing testimonial data, you need to be very careful to distinguish between (1) the experience and (2) the individual's interpretation of his own experience. Sure, lots of people are reporting the experience of being contacted or abducted by strange entities. That's the "raw" experience, so to speak, and I believe most people are truly being sincere while recounting their experiences, in the sense that they truly believe what they say. They are doing their best to recall and describe to you what exactly happened to them. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean that the beings they are interacting with are necessarily aliens from another galaxy. The testimonial data per se doesn't allow you to jump to that conclusion. In fact, there are good reasons to think that the real identity of these entities is rather demonic, that is, that they are demons (a.k.a. fallen angels) that are deceiving people. I already provided resources about this in a previous post. Satan can disguise himself as an angel of light. Demons have the capacity to deceive people and pretend to be a deceased relative, an alien, etc.
 
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swordsman1

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Whatever I believe or don't believe is irrelevant. You, as a cessationist, are making the extraordinary claim that Acts chapter 2 was a historical fact, that xenoglossia actually took place. Therefore, the burden of proof is on you to show that. It doesn't matter if I believe or not, or if my neighbor around the corner believes or not. What matters is that you provide compelling evidence to meet the burden of proof you have for such an extraordinary claim you are making.

Thus, please, would you be so kind to prove that Acts chapter 2 truly happened, without committing the fallacy of begging the question?

No. Since it is universally accepted among Christians that the Bible is true, and you are challenging the status quo, the burden of proof not on me to prove it is true. It is on you to prove it is false.

Burden of proof (philosophy) - Wikipedia

When analyzing testimonial data, you need to be very careful to distinguish between (1) the experience and (2) the individual's interpretation of his own experience. Sure, lots of people are reporting the experience of being contacted or abducted by strange entities. That's the "raw" experience, so to speak, and I believe most people are truly being sincere while recounting their experiences, in the sense that they truly believe what they say. They are doing their best to recall and describe to you what exactly happened to them. HOWEVER, that doesn't mean that the beings they are interacting with are necessarily aliens from another galaxy. The testimonial data per se doesn't allow you to jump to that conclusion. In fact, there are good reasons to think that the real identity of these entities is rather demonic, that is, that they are demons (a.k.a. fallen angels) that are deceiving people. I already provided resources about this in a previous post. Satan can disguise himself as an angel of light. Demons have the capacity to deceive people and pretend to be a deceased relative, an alien, etc.

So you do not take such testimonies at face value. Neither do I.
 
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TruthSeek3r

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No. Since it is universally accepted among Christians that the Bible is true, and you are challenging the status quo, the burden of proof not on me to prove it is true. It is on you to prove it is false.

Burden of proof (philosophy) - Wikipedia

You have your definition of "status quo" a bit messed up. You are conveniently defining your "status quo" as the Christian population. By the same token, I could say that:
  • The status quo in Islam is that the Quran is the inspired word of Allah, so the burden of proof is on you to prove them wrong.
  • The status quo in Hinduism is that the Bhagavad-gītā is true, so the burden of proof is on you to prove it wrong.
  • The status quo among Latter-day Saints is that the Book of Mormon comes from God, so the burden of proof is on you to prove them wrong.
  • The status quo among all people who have personally experienced miracles and the gifts of the Spirit is that continuationism is true, so the burden of proof is on you to prove them wrong :)
  • Etc.
Hopefully you have realized by now how absurd this reasoning is ...

But let's be more serious. Let's look at the whole world population. According to World Population Clock: 7.9 Billion People (2021) - Worldometer, there are about 7.9 billion people alive at the moment. How many of them are Christians? According to Wikipedia, in 2020 there were about 2.3 billion Christians. That means about 33% of the world population. That means about 67% of the world population (the vast majority) is not Christian. In other words, the status quo (in terms of sheer population) is to not be a Christian. Therefore, the burden of proof is on you to show that Acts chapter 2 was a historical fact. Since you are part of the minority who believes it, you have to show the other 67% that you are right and they are wrong.

But perhaps you don't like this. Let's try another option. Since you have a high respect for scientists, let's define the status quo as what most scientists believe regarding this topic. Guess what. Most scientists are not religious:
The Abstract of the last article says:

Scientists have long been associated with religion’s decline around the world. But little data permit analysis of the religiosity of scientists or their perceptions of the science-faith interface. Here we present the first ever survey data from biologists and physicists in eight regions around the world—France, Hong Kong, India, Italy, Taiwan, Turkey, the United Kingdom, and the United States, countries and regions selected because they exhibit differing degrees of religiosity, varying levels of scientific infrastructure, and unique relationships between religious and state institutions (N = 9,422). The data collection includes biologists and physicists at all career stages from elite and non-elite universities and research institutes. We uncovered that in most of the national contexts studied, scientists are indeed more secular—in terms of beliefs and practices—than those in their respective general populations, although in four of the regional contexts, over half of scientists see themselves as religious. And surprisingly, scientists do not think science is in conflict with religion. Instead, most see religion and science as operating in separate spheres.
So the vast majority of scientists do not believe in Acts chapter 2. Therefore, the scientific status quo is to not believe in Acts chapter 2. Hence, the burden of proof is on you to show all those scientists that Acts chapter 2 actually took place.

So you do not take such testimonies at face value. Neither do I.

Sure, but not taking something at face value is not the same as throwing it into the trash can and dismissing it entirely. People are having very strange experiences and encounters. People are testifying about this stuff. You can't just pretend that everyone is a paid actor or everyone is intentionally making up stories to get attention, etc. There are tons of sincere, honest people having genuine experiences out there and you have to make sense of that. And there are good reasons to think that many of these "alien encounters" are demonic in nature. Why would aliens visitations stop or aliens run away at the name of Jesus?
 
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Palmfever

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Can you show me anywhere in the NT where miracles were not used for authentication purposes?
John, 6:26. “Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.”
 
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swordsman1

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You are conveniently defining your "status quo" as the Christian population.

Of course. We are on a Christian forum. You say that I made the "extraordinary claim" that the Bible is true and therefore I have a burden of proof to show that. It is not an extraordinary claim at all. That is the status quo among Christians, and one which everyone here already accepts (or nearly everyone it seems). Therefore I am under no burden of proof whatsoever.

Sure, but not taking something at face value is not the same as throwing it into the trash can and dismissing it entirely. People are having very strange experiences and encounters. People are testifying about this stuff. You can't just pretend that everyone is a paid actor or everyone is intentionally making up stories to get attention, etc. There are tons of sincere, honest people having genuine experiences out there and you have to make sense of that. And there are good reasons to think that many of these "alien encounters" are demonic in nature. Why would aliens visitations stop or aliens run away at the name of Jesus?

So you believe the alien abduction stories, but instead of them being aliens from another planet they were actually demons?

A typical story would be a flying saucer came and hovered over someone's car, levitated the person into the craft, where they were placed on an operating table and surrounded by aliens with bug-like heads, who performed experiments on them, giving them injections, inserting probes into their mouth etc, before dumping them back on the ground.

So you believe all this happened in real life, just as they claimed, except it was demons performing the experiments and not aliens?
 
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swordsman1

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John, 6:26. “Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw the miracles, but because ye did eat of the loaves, and were filled.”

So the feeding of the 5000 was not for authentication purposes?

Nope. All of Jesus's miracles were for authentication purposes.

Acts 2:22 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know—
 
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