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Belief and identity

Quid est Veritas?

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Identity is a complex chimaera of often conflicting ideas. It is not just the parents, the society, at play - there is self-identity and ascribed identity. Wider layers of an onion, Or perhaps a weird soup. What you believe has to be the product of what influenced you, but this can be both in emulation or antithesis. Further, humans are nothing except inconsistent.

Broader culture definitely plays a role - the Spirit of the Age and all that. Today we see a dramatic growth in atheism, but the arguments they make are at home in the mouth of a Greco-Roman Epicurean and the 'facts' they point to are just as often Victorian or older. The culture just seems to have shifted.

Another example is that the Protestant Reformation was largely a Germanic affair - the North and West Germanic peoples, or people like the Poles or Hungarians or Scots that are heavily influenced or partly derived from them, are where the Protestants came out in strength. Even the Romance Protestants: We see that France and Savoy are prominent, both heavily influenced by Franks and Lombards; in Spain it was centred on Vallodolid before its eradication, in the heartland of the old Visigothic polity, and probably resettled from the Suebic areas. Linguistically, Germanic and Romance languages map roughly Protestant and Catholic, just as Sunni Islam maps Semitic languages. Not that I am arguing for some Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, but it gives pause. Political boundaries often map beliefs, either because people of the same general belief came to establish or control a Polis, or from outside influence - like Atheism in the eastern bloc or that the Church of the East espoused some Nestorian element, in response to or in opposition, respectively.

These radiate outward from the home, but a rejection of the home is just as possible of an influence. The growth of Hari Krishnas or Buddhism in the West was a symptom of Western Orientalism, a disaffection with the hearth, projecting an idealised not-West onto the Other and identifying with it. The fact that it was so closely entwined with Beetlemania is telling, just as adherence to Communism is. It is the same spirit enmeshing BLM or so today, a rejection of the old order, but necessarily enmeshed and in reaction to it.

That said, the heart also pulls homeward. Humans aren't emotionless drones, and many a 'rational decision' was a product of the constitution or temperament or emotion. Some for instance, ascribed the success of Protestantism to their hymns - as Hillsong has done in our own day. Humans are great at rationalising after the fact, justifying as logical which was perhaps decided irrespective of that.

Besides, Identity is so dizzyingly complex. Apologies for the autobiographical info that follows: I am a home language Afrikaans speaker, and the Afrikaners were traditionally a dour Calvinist bunch that prided themselves on their partial Huguenot roots. I attended a Dutch Reformed Church in my youth, but rapidly descended into Atheism before returning to the faith much later. I flatter myself that this was an intellectual decision, or logical compulsion, but it certainly did not stay there. That said, I have always loved everything Roman and my attachment to Greco-Roman civilisation has been a strong self-ascribed factor. So when I turn to God, I find expressing myself in Afrikaans renders a visceral religion, a religion of doubt and pain requiring Grace. In English, I fall into reasoned ecumenism, in theological quibbling or historical questions. When I open the Vulgate or hear a Latin hymn, the situation again changes and feels more as if the individualism is subsumed into the Body of Christ, driven no doubt by my association of Latin with civilisation and continuance. It reminds me of Charles V saying he spoke Latin to God, Spanish to men, Italian to women and German to his horse. If I can notice this merely from the superficial language change, what aspects am I missing that lie even lower? What subconscious, or even supraliminal, things am I unaware of? What effect has relationships or occupation or so not had?

I doubt very much one is able to at all tease apart factors that underlie a belief, and that reasoning might have been directed a certain way does not necessarily render that belief invalid. A belief is not necessarily false because of the fact that it was reached by inductive ways.

When I became convinced God existed, I tried to eschew the Christian on account of this flawed idea that I was obviously culturally predisposed toward it. The rest just did not stick, whether this is cultural preconditioning or not, the practical matter is that I simply did not believe them. Looking for Christianity, I ended up with CS Lewis an Anglican, Augustine a Church Father, Chesterton a Catholic, Dostoyevsky an Orthodox, etc. In those early days, if the Catholic Church had had a Latin Mass nearby, I am not convinced I wouldn't be Catholic today. But no, I ended up back at the Dutch Reformed Church of my youth, ensconced in its round of familiar hymns and Kerk Bazaar. I find myself chafing at a lot of the old Protestant platitudes, and the waters of the Tiber can lap at your feet. Frankly, I don't know what I believe in-toto, as your beliefs are only really laid bare at the quick, with your feet in the fire. I can unblushingly recite the Apostle's Creed in Afrikaans, English or Latin, but what I mean by it perhaps shades away. I came to the conclusion that I am Protestant, but who knows if this is cognitive bias or not? My self-ascribed identity of Protestant is a shorthand for culture or theology that I may or may not agree with, and the cloak we dress in may be threadbare in places and luxuriant elsewhere, and all these identifying labels are merely the masks we adopt to interact with one another. After all, Person itself merely means Mask, an intellectualising exercise of thinking of yourself, and thus set-up an identity not wholely the same as the Self, that you may aspire to or wish to change or repudiate. No one can escape their biases, and he who thinks he can is a fool who merely hasn't noticed the spectacles he uses to look at the world.
 
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Tom 1

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I doubt very much one is able to at all tease apart factors that underlie a belief

True, I've never been able to get past probable associations and vague notions when trying to figure out differences between my parents' belief and my own. I think you can get a general idea from statistics about tendencies but it breaks down at the individual level.
 
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durangodawood

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Okay, but what if a democratic nation elects the same hero-strongman every four years? In that case you have a conjunction of the two things.
The attraction of a strongman is typically that he can obliterate the institutions that check power in an stable democracy. If the strongman starts getting his way procedurally, then the democracy itself is threatened.

Why do you think there is a necessary connection between democracy and checks on power?
Mainly because I cant think of good examples of democracies that endure without them, at least not in the modern world. Perhaps the natural form of this political arrangement has emerged. Without checks on power, the constitution itself is vulnerable to the strongman who doesnt think his term has gone on long enough. We see this all the time in democracies that fail.

All along it has felt like you are using a definition of democracy that is off. So yes, if democracy is supposed to check the power of leaders, then the "hero-strongman" is incompatible with democracy. I just don't see where in the definition of democracy that check occurs. Sure, the hero must be re-elected on a regular basis, but that doesn't mean the voters need to check his power or vote him out.
I see the strongman as getting into a position to modify the constitution to enable an effective president for life. The people may have neglected the institutions that would normally restrict this.

I don't see how democratic socialism is an oxymoron. The demos could decide in favor of a superstate, or a workers utopia, or a strongman, etc.
I see those 3 forms as requiring an amount of concentrated power that is naturally threatening to a stable democracy. The demos may cede this power because they are enamored of a more thrilling ideology, like a world of pure equality, or overarching piety.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Just for some balance, here’s my story from the non-religious perspective. I never did connect with religion. My family is a mixture of Catholic, Protestant, and some Jewish. My parents weren’t particularly observant. We occasionally attended services on holidays, but not regularly. I went to Bible school for a time. But as I think about it, even at 8 or 9 years old, I had a deep down feeling that Bible stories weren’t much different from fairy tales. I’m apparently one of those people who are simply incapable of any kind of spiritual or supernatural belief. I’m familiar with the concept of the “God” part of the brain. Which most human beings supposedly have. But I guess I’m brain-damaged, and just lack that function. :oldthumbsup:

I doubt you're brain damaged any more than I am. ^_^ At age 8 and 9, I had very similar notions about the nature of the Bible (or what little I knew of it at the time) as you did. Of course, I also had a number of notions about sugar-plumbs dancing in my head, along with other, "more interesting" ideas flying-about .......

[......fill in long list of various Sci-Fi and Fantasy franchises in the following blank space ___________________________________________.] ^_^
 
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zippy2006

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Identity is a complex chimaera of often conflicting ideas. It is not just the parents, the society, at play - there is self-identity and ascribed identity. Wider layers of an onion, Or perhaps a weird soup...

That was an excellent post, one of the best I've read on an internet forum. I saved it to my files. :oldthumbsup:
 
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zippy2006

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The attraction of a strongman is typically that he can obliterate the institutions that check power in an stable democracy. If the strongman starts getting his way procedurally, then the democracy itself is threatened.

...

I see those 3 forms as requiring an amount of concentrated power that is naturally threatening to a stable democracy. The demos may cede this power because they are enamored of a more thrilling ideology, like a world of pure equality, or overarching piety.

Okay, good points.


Mainly because I cant think of good examples of democracies that endure without them, at least not in the modern world. Perhaps the natural form of this political arrangement has emerged. Without checks on power, the constitution itself is vulnerable to the strongman who doesnt think his term has gone on long enough. We see this all the time in democracies that fail.

Well, the checks on power tend to be majoritarian democratic principles themselves, right? But after thinking about it more I think you are right that democracies check power to a certain extent. This is done through those majoritarian principles, but also naturally in the way that power requires funding, funding requires taxes, and the common man doesn't like to pay taxes. :D So the demagogue can keep his boat afloat for a long time in a democracy, but insofar as he seeks excessive power his position will be unstable.
 
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Robban

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Interested in people's thoughts about how belief is supported by identity and vice versa.

Some definitions:

I'd rather not get sidetracked into discussions of what belief means, so belief for this thread just means what you happen to think is true.

Identity - for this discussion everything that contributes to what you think about the world, where you were born, what your parents believed, your education and so on.

Some basics:

Where we are born clearly has an influence on what religion we might tend towards. I'm more interested in questions of identity and belief on a more personal level. To what degree do you think people are influenced by the beliefs of their parents, and by their level of education, and in what way? What kinds of things reinforce or weaken those beliefs?

There are many different Christian denominations. While there are some shared beliefs there are also varying degrees to which people firmly believe their denomination's particular teachings are the right ones. No church teaches 'only the bible' - every reading of the bible is an interpretation, and no church's teachings represent some universally objective true reading of the text. This being the case, what are the degrees of relevance of identity with the group vs conviction through argument or understanding?

To me it seems that people often identify with a particular denomination or set of doctrines for reasons wrapped up in their identity and sense of self, or because of some personal experience, and that arguments used by that denomination are employed more as a form of reassurance or to emotionally bolster something the person has already accepted as true.

Finally, when belief in something is shaken, how does this reconfigure a person's identity? E.g if people sideline doubts to maintain their identity as part of a group, or where a person undergoes a radical change in how they view the world and their own place in it.


"He breathed within him the breath (neshamah) of life, and Adam became a living soul."
(Genesis 2:7)

Repentance/return/teshuva.
Reconnecting,

1,Reclaiming your personal connection with the maker of heaven and earth.
2, Regretting wasting life in the past and resolving to take on the divine mission for which you came here from now on.
3, Being the neshamah you really are, every day.

From "Daily dose" by Tzvi Freeman.

It does not appear to ever be too late,
consider,
a piece of flintstone been laying under water for 50 years,

it is picked up and struck...........it will give off a spark.
 
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Rajni

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