How can we be sure??

[SabbathBlessings]

That's already been explained and it does not necessarily indicate immersion. That might have been the way Christ was baptized, although we know from the shallowness of the Jordan at such points that it would be difficult to accomplish, but it certainly does not "prove" that it happened that way.

Not according to scriptures:

John 3:23And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.

 

[Sparta]

That is not what Jesus is referring to. When we accept Jesus it has to be a conscious decision. Infants cannot make decisions.

what you wrote, makes no sense.

Try to look at it from the perspective of the dying Thief on the Cross who was not water baptized.
Or, try to see it from the pov of anyone who understands that its the Blood of Jesus, and not the water that deals with sin.

 

[Albion]

You can't understand that you were born once, coming out of the womb of your mother, where you were in a sac filled with water for many months. This sac opened, and out you came into the world.

Everyone understands that, my friend.

This is your "born of Water".

If you think so, then please answer this--

When Christ was baptized, was he standing in bodily fluid (however wrongly described in the Bible as the River Jordan)?

And was that also the case when the other people who are described in the New Testament asked to be baptized and then were baptized with their entire households? What about the statement of one of them that it could be done because "there is much water here?" Am I to take it that he wasn't actually referring to lakes or ponds or etc.?

 

[Sparta]

Jesus is the way and came as our example and was baptized in water and lived a sinless life which we should all strive to be more like Him.

Let me try again for you.

Look at this verse, as its the context of "born of water and born of the spirit. (born again)

""""""" That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.""""


Jesus is showing you that the 1st birth, is FLESH....that is when you came out of your mother.

Then, He is showing you that you must be born again, Spiritually.

So, as i said, this isn't hard to understand, unless you have been taught not to understand it correctly.

 

[Sparta]

When Christ was baptized, was he standing in bodily fluid (however wrongly described in the Bible as the River Jordan)?

Christ was not a sinner being water baptized after he was born again.......when we was baptized by John.

Why do you not understand this?

 

[Albion]

Not according to scriptures:

John 3:23And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.

So...are you claiming that "much water" means immersion? That doesn't really follow logically, since you don't need an ocean in order to baptize by immersion.

But we also know where it was that the event you are referring to was located. It is a region that has a lot of shallow ponds.

So when the comment was made about "much water," it doesn't refer to the depth of any body of water, but to the fact that they--the evangelist and the candidate--certainly were not at a loss for having enough water with which to perform the baptisms of his entire household (as we are also told in that passage)!

 

[BobRyan]

Matt 3: 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water:

That's already been explained

Indeed it has. He was "in the water" and the reason for that is that baptism is full water immersion.

. Rom 6:
What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2 Far from it! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too may walk in newness of life.

Baptism symbolizes that death burial and resurrection -- because it is believer's baptism via full water immersion

Jordan River: " only about 100 feet wide at its broadest spot, and maybe 17 feet at its deepest point,"

We could always imagine a scenario where it was only 5 inches deep or ankle deep at the spot where John just-so-happen to choose for all his baptisms to "make sure" there was no water immersion going on. But that is not very logical.

"Jesus came up OUT of the water" instead of John dipping in a cup and sprinkling it on Jesus' head.

 

[Albion]

Christ was not a sinner being water baptized after he was born again

In the first place, Christ was God and therefore sinless. But he did undergo a baptism by John in order to show an example his followers are to follow.

And he said as much when he sent his Apostles out to the world with the instructions to baptize people. Get that? THEY were to baptize converts.

That means there is to be a baptizer, an administrator of the Baptism, so it's not a reference to the Holy Spirit coming upon the believer in some purely spiritual manner.

 

[Albion]

Matt 3: 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water:

We've explained this, Bob. When a person leaves the water, he has to go UP onto the land. The water cannot be higher than the surrounding land. That's undeniable.

Jordan River: " only about 100 feet wide at its broadest spot, and maybe 17 feet at its deepest point,"

I'm not sure what point you had in mind to make with that information, but baptisms were not performed at the river's deepest point but rather at one of the shallow sections.

 

[BobRyan]

So...are you claiming that "much water" means immersion?

Came up "out of the water" and "much water" is not how one describes "dip a cup in water and sprinkle it on someone's head".

This is the easy part.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

what you wrote, makes no sense.

Try to look at it from the perspective of the dying Thief on the Cross who was not water baptized.
Or, try to see it from the pov of anyone who understands that its the Blood of Jesus, and not the water that deals with sin.

Making a decision to accept Jesus and be "Born again" to leave our old life of sin to walk with Jesus in a path of righteousness does not make sense to you? Jesus was baptized in water why? Was He a sinner? No- Jesus was our example according to scriptures 1 John 2:6

Will Jesus make an exception for those who cannot baptized? It appears so, but if we are capable and able but choose not to, I personally would not want to take that risk when eternal life is at stake.

God bless.

 

[BobRyan]

We've explained this, Bob. When a person leaves the water, he has to go UP onto the land.

indeed that is how full body immersion baptism works.

By contrast - John simply dipping a cup in water and sprinkling/pouring it on someone's head who is standing near the Jordan - does not need all that "come up out of the water" language. And it has already been explained as you say.

 

[BobRyan]

Jordan River: " only about 100 feet wide at its broadest spot, and maybe 17 feet at its deepest point,"

I'm not sure what point you had in mind to make with that information, but baptisms were not performed at the river's deepest point .

Certainly not at the 17 foot point - but one would only need about 3 or 4 feet to do full immersion baptism and a river that is up to 17 feet deep in the middle at places will have other places near shore that are more like 3 or 4 feet deep.

 

[Albion]

Came up "out of the water" and "much water" is not how one describes "dip a cup in water and sprinkle it on someone's head".

This is the easy part.

So have you abandoned the effort to redefine Christ's baptism in favor of going at the current practice of baptism??

There is not one way to administer the water in today's churches. Some practice immersion and others use affusion or pouring and some few (wrongly I think) favor what critics enjoy saying everybody but themselves do, which is to "sprinkle." All use water, though.

Now, so that we don't lose the point here...my stance and that of most of the historic churches--is that baptism by immersion is fine, if it's done that way. It even has understandable symbolism of the Lord's being buried and then raised from the grave.

So if a church does that (the Eastern Orthodox churches, for instance) that's not wrong. But that's not the same as insisting that ONLY a baptism by immersion is valid, and that's what some of the posters here are saying.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

So...are you claiming that "much water" means immersion? That doesn't really follow logically, since you don't need an ocean in order to baptize by immersion.

But we also know where it was that the event you are referring to was located. It is a region that has a lot of shallow ponds.

So when the comment was made about "much water," it doesn't refer to the depth of any body of water, but to the fact that they--the evangelist and the candidate--certainly were not at a loss for having enough water with which to perform the baptisms of his entire household (as we are also told in that passage)!

Your post said there was not enough water for immersion this scripture says otherwise. The water is symbolic for washing away our sins. Full immersion means washing all of our sins and we are born again because we no longer want to walk in a life of sin but a path of righteousness like our Savior.

 

[Albion]

Jordan River: " only about 100 feet wide at its broadest spot, and maybe 17 feet at its deepest point,"

Certainly not at the 17 foot point - but one would only need about 3 or 4 feet to do full immersion baptism and a river that is up to 17 feet deep in the middle at places will have other places near shore that are more like 3 or 4 feet deep.

Understood. But of course that fact doesn't do anything to prove that Christ was baptized by total immersion.

 

[Albion]

Your post said there was not enough water for immersion this scripture says otherwise.

I didn't say that.

 

[Albion]

By contrast - John simply dipping a cup in water and sprinkling it on someone's head who is standing near the Jordan - does not need all that "come up out of the water" language. And it has already been explained as you say.

But you are still debating the imaginary opponent of your church's own choosing. Most Christian denominations--Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, Anglican, etc. etc.--DON'T baptize by "sprinkling." At least not normally. So it's a strawman argument to keep denouncing the practice of the majority of churches by describing a practice that is NOT the norm.

And as for saying that the "come up out of the water" part of the passage would be out of place if the baptism were not by immersion, that is truly wrong.

It's speculation of course, but it's also wrong. That passage has a number of descriptions of the locale and the movements of the persons involved. It is entirely logical for the narrative to describe the conclusion of the events taking place on that occasion, following all the other details that had been given.

 

[Albion]

Your post said there was not enough water for immersion

No, it doesn't.

I said that the reference to much water apparently refers to the region in which this event took place and that it is one that is known for having a lot of shallow ponds or the like. That means that for people who want to claim that baptism by immersion is the only way and the Biblical way--and then cite this verse, thinking that it substantiates that view--they're dead wrong about that. It does not substantiate the claim that immersion was used on that occasion.

 

[BobRyan]

We've explained this, Bob. When a person leaves the water, he has to go UP onto the land.

indeed that is how full body immersion baptism works.

By contrast - John simply dipping a cup in water and sprinkling/pouring it on someone's head who is standing near the Jordan - does not need all that "come up out of the water" language. And it has already been explained as you say.

Most Christian denominations--Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, Anglican, etc. etc.--DON'T baptize by "sprinkling." At least not normally.

Do you think they all baptize by immersion?