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I've lugged my body around for 78 years. Unfortunately 34 of them were without Christ, but from then on ... hallelujah!
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The Second Death
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I've lugged my body around for 78 years. Unfortunately 34 of them were without Christ, but from then on ... hallelujah!
- Nov 21, 2008
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Rev 20 is the only book.chapter in the Bible to use the term "second death" most other books of the Bible call it "hell".
The lake of fire happens only after 1000 year millennium of Rev 20 has completed and the great white throne judgment is complete.
Matt 10:28 includes an interesting Bible detail
28 And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in fiery hell.
Ezek 18:4 "the soul that sins shall die"
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That's right, but lets look at another interesting detail in Isaiah 66:
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. 24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
Let's compare the same time frame in Revelation 21: 1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
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When Jesus makes his second coming then he will fulfill the rest of prophesy. But let's take a look at the end, right before the Father's kingdom is the Great White throne Judge. Now this is everyone on earth who is still sleep or dead and those that made it in Jesus kingdom through the great tribulation. And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20: 11-15)
So now, let's take a look at the Father kingdom coming. And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. (Revelation 21: 1-5, 22, 23) So Jesus been on earth for thousand years, and here come the Father out of heaven coming down.
So we have a new heaven and a new earth, new Jerusalem the Father and Son, now on earth. This is the kingdom to come.
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Sorry it looks like that but we need baptism and more. In the scriptures it's written in Psalms 1:1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful. 2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night. 3 And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper. 4 The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away. 5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous. 6 For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.
Look at verse 5, the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous. The ungodly will not stand in the congregation of the righteous. What does this mean?
Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
Why doesn't the righteous stand in the congregation of the ungodly? Look at verse 4 again. Judgment was given unto them, that is why they don't stand in the congregation of sinners. These people were also in the first resurrection. Let's go to some other places in the scriptures to find out who will reign with Christ.
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David's throne was located in Jerusalem. So if David's throne is in Jerusalem, where will Christ reign? In Jerusalem. Here in Psalm 132 pay close attention what the Lord is saying here.
Psalms 132:1 A Song of degrees. LORD, remember David, and all his afflictions: 2 How he sware unto the LORD, and vowed unto the mighty God of Jacob; 3 Surely I will not come into the tabernacle of my house, nor go up into my bed; 4 I will not give sleep to mine eyes, or slumber to mine eyelids, 5 Until I find out a place for the LORD, an habitation for the mighty God of Jacob. 6 Lo, we heard of it at Ephratah: we found it in the fields of the wood. 7 We will go into his tabernacles: we will worship at his footstool. 8 Arise, O LORD, into thy rest; thou, and the ark of thy strength. 9 Let thy priests be clothed with righteousness; and let thy saints shout for joy. 10 For thy servant David's sake turn not away the face of thine anointed. 11 The LORD hath sworn in truth unto David; he will not turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne. 12 If thy children will keep my covenant and my testimony that I shall teach them, their children shall also sit upon thy throne for evermore. 13 For the LORD hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his habitation. 14 This is my rest for ever: here will I dwell; for I have desired it.
Look at this statement that Lord made in verse 11. Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne. This must be Jesus speaking here. What did it say in Luke? Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: He shall reign over the house of Jacob forever.
Notice verse 13 For the LORD hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his habitation. Verse 14 This is my rest for ever: here will I dwell; for I have desired it.
Now you see that Jesus kingdom will be here on earth. The Lake Of Fire must be around some where.
Let's go to Isaiah and see if we can find it.
Isaiah 66:20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD. 21 And I will also take of them for priests and for Levites, saith the LORD. 22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. 24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
These verses are beyond us, but not too far. Where is the Lord at this time? In his holy mountain Jerusalem. What will happen when all flesh come up to worship him? They will look upon the carcases of the men that transgressed against Him. Where is the Lake Of Fire?
In Jerusalem. Here is something else. Who are these men that are in the Lake Of Fire? Notice all flesh shall come to worship before the Lord.
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- Feb 21, 2019
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I agree with you that the New Jerusalem is now presently with us but not the kingdom to come.
Hebrews 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels.
Galatians 4:22-31; theses verses equate the new covenant with the Jerusalem which is above and free.
I’m personally not waiting for another kingdom to come because Hebrews 9:15-17 shows that through Christ’s death the new covenant is in force which is the New Jerusalem.
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- Mar 10, 2017
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Where does Jesus say that we Must do everything he commands if we are to be save4d?
How does your believe in Christians ticking off a list of things done marry with the promises that Jesus's yoke is easy/comfortable and the Isaiah promises that God will not snap the bruised reed or extingush the smoking flax?
Is Christianity only for those able to achieve a certsin standard of rightousness or is it open to all who will come?
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Matt 10:28 includes an interesting Bible detail
28 And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in fiery hell.
Ezek 18:4 "the soul that sins shall die"
Indeed - both are true. The wicked are tormented with fire and brimstone in the lake of fire (called the second death in Rev 20) - and that is where Christ's statement in Matt 10:28 about "both body and soul destroyed" comes in.
The destructive force (represented by worms and fire) is never stopped. Like a house fire where the fire that is destroying the house cannot be stopped.
Luke 12 puts it this way.
45 But if that slave says in his heart, ‘My master will take a long time to come,’ and he begins to beat the other slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk; 46 then the master of that slave will come on a day that he does not expect, and at an hour that he does not know, and will cut him in two, and assign him a place with the unbelievers. 47 And that slave who knew his master’s will and did not get ready or act in accordance with his will, will receive many blows, 48 but the one who did not know it, and committed acts deserving of a beating, will receive only a few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.
Instead of "infinite debt, that is never paid" as the reward of all -- it is finite debt and it is fully paid in the case of all the wicked -- some get many blows (much torment) and others less. But none will come out as "survivors"... none will survive it since at the end Christ says "both body and soul" end up in the Matt 10:28 condition which is the Ezek 18:4 condition.
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BTW - thanks for quoting this
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, shall all mankind come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
28 And do not be afraid of those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in fiery hell.
Ezek 18:4 "the soul that sins shall die"
Indeed - both are true. The wicked are tormented with fire and brimstone in the lake of fire (called the second death in Rev 20) - and that is where Christ's statement in Matt 10:28 about "both body and soul destroyed" comes in.
The destructive force (represented by worms and fire) is never stopped. Like a house fire where the fire that is destroying the house cannot be stopped.
Luke 12 puts it this way.
45 But if that slave says in his heart, ‘My master will take a long time to come,’ and he begins to beat the other slaves, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk; 46 then the master of that slave will come on a day that he does not expect, and at an hour that he does not know, and will cut him in two, and assign him a place with the unbelievers. 47 And that slave who knew his master’s will and did not get ready or act in accordance with his will, will receive many blows, 48 but the one who did not know it, and committed acts deserving of a beating, will receive only a few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.
Instead of "infinite debt, that is never paid" as the reward of all -- it is finite debt and it is fully paid in the case of all the wicked -- some get many blows (much torment) and others less. But none will come out as "survivors"... none will survive it since at the end Christ says "both body and soul" end up in the Matt 10:28 condition which is the Ezek 18:4 condition.
================================
BTW - thanks for quoting this
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. 23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, shall all mankind come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
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Being sinless is not a pre-requsite for salvation - for all have sinned Rom 3:23 - but in the case of the saved "if anyone does sin we have an advocate with the Father" 1 John 2:1.
But your question about "obedience" can be found in part -- here.
Matt 7:
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 So then, you will know them by their fruits.
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. 22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’
And we see it in Romans 2 as well
Rom 2:
4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
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- Mar 10, 2017
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So why the dogmatic insistence on works?
Works do not save us.
Works do not earn us anything.
There is only one reason for good works, as a means of demonstrating that we love Jesus.
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- Nov 21, 2008
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some people skim passed
1 John 2:1 "these things I write that you sin NOT" --
and land firmly on
1 John 2:1 "if anyone sins we have an advocate with the Father"
Matt 7 "by their fruits you shall know them"
Rom 2:13-16 "it is NOT the hearers of the Law that are just before God - but the DOERS of the Law WILL be justified... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God will judge"
Rom 8:4-12 the lost "do not and CAN NOT submit to the Law of God" by contrast to the saints that walk in obedience according to that chapter.
Rom 6 "do you not know that you are SLAVES of the one whom you OBEY - either of sin resulting in death or of righteousness resulting in life"
true.
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- Nov 21, 2008
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It is right next to it in Rev 20.
7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are at the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore. 9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
2 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them; and they were judged, each one of them according to their deeds. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
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Thank you for making it clear that you believe that Christians are saved by there works.
As 1 john1:8 says, " If we claim to be without sin we decide ourselfs and the truth( Jesus ) is not in us.
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some people skim passed
1 John 2:1 "these things I write that you sin NOT" --
and land firmly on
1 John 2:1 "if anyone sins we have an advocate with the Father"
Matt 7 "by their fruits you shall know them"
Rom 2:13-16 "it is NOT the hearers of the Law that are just before God - but the DOERS of the Law WILL be justified... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God will judge"
Rom 8:4-12 the lost "do not and CAN NOT submit to the Law of God" by contrast to the saints that walk in obedience according to that chapter.
Rom 6 "do you not know that you are SLAVES of the one whom you OBEY - either of sin resulting in death or of righteousness resulting in life"
true.
Is it the bible texts that lead you to conclude that??? If so - I can help with that.
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Clare73
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You are interpreting highly figurative prophecy literally, which will give a wrong intepretation.
If you know your NT, you know there are three persons in the Godhead, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
That is personal interpretation of prophetic riddles (Numbers 12:8), which are subject to more than one interpretation, and which interpretation here is in gross disagreement with authoritative NT teaching, which allows for no two resurrections nor for two kingdoms.
The fact that you say "there will be no flesh and blood upon the earth when the Father's kingdom comes down" and you don't know "where the Son's kingdom will be located" shows the error of your contra-NT interpretation.
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Some things are literal and some are symbols in Revelation. We see Christ, God, God's throne, saints, the wicked, resurrection, the armies of heaven, the armies of the Earth, persecution of the saints, and judgment in Revelation - those are all examples of facts that are literal in the book of Revelation. But there are also symbols used in Revelation.
The Bible interprets its own symbols for example
Rev 17:15 And he *said to me, “The waters which you saw where the prostitute sits are peoples and multitudes, and nations and languages.
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