Eternal Security

[Brightfame52]

Then how could Paul and Timothy possibly deny Christ? Or how could anyone fail to remain in Christ?

I dont know what you talking about. I do know Jesus is responsible for keeping His Promise that the Sheep He was given, that shall never perish, be lost ! Take Jesus at His Promise friend

 

[BNR32FAN]

I dont know what you talking about. I do know Jesus is responsible for keeping His Promise that the Sheep He was given, that shall never perish, be lost ! Take Jesus at His Promise friend

Oh I do take Him at His promise, but the question is are you understanding Him correctly? If what you think He promised is true then these next two passages should be an impossibility.

“It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him; If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us; If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2:11-13‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:6‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[renniks]

It was Jesus who said the Sheep who were given to Him by His Father, that they shall never perish. Since He made the promise, not the Sheep, He is responsible that they never perish, or He lied !

He said his sheep follow him. I think you read it backwards. If we ceased being connected to the vine, if we ceased to follow, does that promise apply to us?

 

[Brightfame52]

Oh I do take Him at His promise, but the question is are you understanding Him correctly? If what you think He promised is true then these next two passages should be an impossibility.

“It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him; If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us; If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2:11-13‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:6‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Nothing has changed, its all in His Hands, its His responsibility to make sure His promise is Good, He said the Sheep shall never perish. I believe that includes Paul and Timothy, and anyone else who are Sheep given to Him.

 

[Brightfame52]

He said his sheep follow him. I think you read it backwards. If we ceased being connected to the vine, if we ceased to follow, does that promise apply to us?

Its His responsibility to make His Sheep follow Him, its His responsibility to ensure them eternal life and to never perish. If any of His Sheep go astray at anytime, its His responsibility to find it bring it back to the fold, read Lk 15

 

[Biblewriter]

you must read the bible as one cohesive whole:
Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. 14 The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life’s worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature. Luke8:13&14

Note in the second example of the parable of the sower, it refers to the seed that fell on shallow ground. People receive the word with joy and go on their way, they believe for a while, but when the time of testing comes they fall away. They must have been in a saved state to get to where they fell away.
The people in the third example, kept getting distracted from the path by the worries and pleasures of this world, but Jesus does not say they walked away, only that they did not mature. We have to accept all of Jesus words concerning this, not just the ones we want to cling to

Yu failed to notice the words, "they have no root." That means that there was never a heart commitment there, only a mental assent to the accuracy of a statement of fact.

 

[michael21]

Yu failed to notice the words, "they have no root." That means that there was never a heart commitment there, only a mental assent to the accuracy of a statement of fact.

Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.

What do they fall away from?

 

[renniks]

Its His responsibility to make His Sheep follow Him, its His responsibility to ensure them eternal life and to never perish. If any of His Sheep go astray at anytime, its His responsibility to find it bring it back to the fold, read Lk 15

Yeah well the analogy isn't perfect. I have sheep. They are not too bright. They do have to be dragged sometimes. But we aren't literally sheep, so that's where the analogy breaks down a bit. We, unlike those wooly creatures, can choose to become something else entirely.
We can try to enter through another gate. Jesus said that the Jews were not his sheep, but he also said:
"But if I do his work, believe in the evidence of the miraculous works I have done, even if you don’t believe me. Then you will know and understand that the Father is in me, and I am in the Father.”

He knew that they did not and would not believe at that time, but he left the invitation open, even though they wanted him dead.
I assume you are coming at this from the Calvinist perspective. I've been there, done that and found it unconvincing.

 

[Brightfame52]

Yeah well the analogy isn't perfect. I have sheep. They are not too bright. They do have to be dragged sometimes. But we aren't literally sheep, so that's where the analogy breaks down a bit. We, unlike those wooly creatures, can choose to become something else entirely.
We can try to enter through another gate. Jesus said that the Jews were not his sheep, but he also said:
"But if I do his work, believe in the evidence of the miraculous works I have done, even if you don’t believe me. Then you will know and understand that the Father is in me, and I am in the Father.”

He knew that they did not and would not believe at that time, but he left the invitation open, even though they wanted him dead.
I assume you are coming at this from the Calvinist perspective. I've been there, done that and found it unconvincing.

You not Jesus Christ or God. God, Jesus Christ is responsible for His Sheep, Hes responsible to make His Promise good, they shall never perish.

 

[renniks]

Yeah well other verses contradict your deterministic reading of scripture.
But it's obvious you will continue to misinterpret those verses.

You not Jesus Christ or God. God, Jesus Christ is responsible for His Sheep, Hes responsible to make His Promise good, they shall never perish.

 

[Brightfame52]

Yeah well other verses contradict your deterministic reading of scripture.
But it's obvious you will continue to misinterpret those verses.

Jesus making a promise isn't a misinterpretation friend. Jesus promised that they shall never perish, take Him at His Word !

 

[BNR32FAN]

Nothing has changed, its all in His Hands, its His responsibility to make sure His promise is Good, He said the Sheep shall never perish. I believe that includes Paul and Timothy, and anyone else who are Sheep given to Him.

So are you saying is that Paul and Timothy were not capable of denying Him or are you saying that even if they did deny Him they will still be saved?

 

[Biblewriter]

Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.

What do they fall away from?

They had NO ROOT. That means their "belief" was only superficial. It was nothing but a mental assent to the accuracy of a set of statements. There was no faith in God involved. End of debate.

 

[BNR32FAN]

They had NO ROOT. That means their "belief" was only superficial. It was nothing but a mental assent to the accuracy of a set of statements. There was no faith in God involved. End of debate.

Hey awesome your back again can you please explain the verses I’ve asked you about earlier? 2 Timothy 2:12 and John 15:6?

 

[michael21]

They had NO ROOT. That means their "belief" was only superficial. It was nothing but a mental assent to the accuracy of a set of statements. There was no faith in God involved. End of debate.

I would have ended the debate anyway, though I notice you did not answer the question put to you. I have chatted about this subject previously on another website. When you put the plainest of scripture before people they go to extraordinary lengths to try and overturn the plainly written word, whether it be through doing sommersaults with the word, or trying to use to use the Greek or Aramaic to overturn the word. I found it dispiriting

 

[Brightfame52]

So are you saying is that Paul and Timothy were not capable of denying Him or are you saying that even if they did deny Him they will still be saved?

Its Christs responsibility to keep His Sheep from perishing, is it possible for Christ to fail in His responsibility in bringing Paul and Timothy into life eternal ?

 

[michael21]

The parable of the sower

In the first example satan snatched away the seed that was planted in peoples’ hearts. How could he do that? A person accepts the message, it is in their heart. They accept Christ an d stand before God spotless in His sight. They have done nothing to earn or deserve their salvation, it is a free gift based on what Christ did for them. They are righteous in God’s sight through faith in His son. How can satan now remove the word from their heart? He would have a tough job getting the new believer to believe Jesus did not die at calvary, for they are firmly convinced he did. But satan is subtle, he appeals to human reasoning. He plants the rationale in the new converts mind that now he is saved he must obey God’s laws, he may have been saved by faith, but Christians can’t go around living a life of sin, so if they don’t obey the law they naturally cannot remain saved. Some new converts would naturally think this is correct reasoning, what could be wrong with it, who could argue against it? And so they strive to obey the law so as they can remain saved. Things have changed now though, they no longer have a righteousness of faith in Christ but one of obeying the law, fail to obey it and they can no longer remain saved.. Satan has snatched the word out of their heart that was planted there.

Some become Christians but make a shallow commitment, they may make that shallow commitment for a variety of reasons(one already mentioned) When trials/hard times come, due to their shallow commitment they walk away

Others make a much deeper commitment, however, as they go on their way they constantly become side tracked by other things. They feel bad about it, and never would walk away, and come before God often in regret at their being sidetracked from the path. But they cannot mature in the faith, for you mature by practising evermore right from wrong.

Then there are those who accept the message and understand it, they want to follow after Christ without distractions, they want to be all he wants them to be and sacrifice much for it. They reap a great harvest, for they have fully paid the price for it

 

[BNR32FAN]

Its Christs responsibility to keep His Sheep from perishing, is it possible for Christ to fail in His responsibility in bringing Paul and Timothy into life eternal ?

No that’s your error because your understanding of John 10 does not line up with all scripture. Now your ignoring other scriptures in order to hold on to your interpretation of John 10 instead of re-examining it.

 

[Brightfame52]

No that’s your error because your understanding of John 10 does not line up with all scripture. Now your ignoring other scriptures in order to hold on to your interpretation of John 10 instead of re-examining it.

Jesus says they shall never perish, its His responsibility to ensure His Sheep shall not perish. IMO you dont seem to take Jesus at His Word !

 

[BNR32FAN]

Jesus says they shall never perish, its His responsibility to ensure His Sheep shall not perish. IMO you dont seem to take Jesus at His Word !

Ok then stop ignoring 2 Timothy 2:12 and explain how it doesn’t contradict eternal security. You can’t ignore one scripture because it contradicts your interpretation of another one, you have to find a way that both can be true without contradicting each other. So far you haven’t done that, you’ve only ignored 2 Timothy 2:12.