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Creationists: Explain your understanding of microevolution and macroevolution

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Alan Kleinman

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Your comment about mating and dog breeds is a bit worrying for someone claiming to know something that mainstream science doesn't know.
Well, if you think the evolution of reptiles into birds is within the realm of scientific possibility, you certainly haven't explained how that genetic transformation can occur.
And you also didn't actually answer my question, so I'll repeat:

So, if species cannot occur by microevolution, a thing that you claim is factual, and then also that macroevolution, the part of evolution that explicitly allows new species to form, isn't factual either (according to you), how do new species form then?
I've given my answer, you just don't like it. If you have a scientific explanation of how reptiles evolve into birds and fish evolve into mammals, why don't you give that explanation in your next post?
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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Well, if you think the evolution of reptiles into birds is within the realm of scientific possibility, you certainly haven't explained how that genetic transformation can occur.

I've given my answer, you just don't like it. If you have a scientific explanation of how reptiles evolve into birds and fish evolve into mammals, why don't you give that explanation in your next post?

Yes, the process and explanation is called evolution. You have said that it's impossible through microevolution, which is the only part of evolution you think is factual, and that it's also not through macroevolution which you claim to be non-factual.
So how do species come about, if they can't do it through microevolution or macroevolution?
 
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tas8831

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You are the one that doesn't answer a simple question.
No YOU are. There, I win...
You think that just because a replicator can produce keratin, it can produce feathers.

There you go again, trying to weasel out of your own gaffe.
You poor silly man, trying to erase your silliness - YOU had written:

" ...tell other cells to turn on and off the production of keratin to make the correct feather type grow in the correct location on birds?"

You appear to think that making keratin is all it takes!^_^^_^
And you apparently do not understand how timing of expression works, either. You really should get off your high horse for a bit and maybe check out Evolution 101.
Poor guy... So desperate..
That will only happen if the replicator has the non-coding, controlling genetics that turns on and off that keratin gene at the right place and the right time in the differentiation of the original stem cell.
Oh, your use of sciencey words is so impressive! The "controlling genetics"?
Funny you didn't write that before.
Whoever taught you biology must be one of those macroevolutionists that thinks that most of the DNA in a genome is junk DNA.
It is. ell, noncoding DNA. A lot if it is junk. You must be one of these non-scientist creationist types that thought the ENCODE proclamations were totally true.
That was another of the really bad idea that comes out of biology departments.
Not as bad as the ideas coming out of the creationists that started out as engineers cult.

Again, you ignore so much - almost as if you cannot handle the material.



What you failed to address in red:


You are assuming that these macroevolutionary genetic transformations can occur when all experimental evidence of DNA microevolutionary transformations says that you don't have the selection conditions or population sizes to do such a transformation.
You do not understand the relationship between genotype and phenotype, so your contrived math is irrelevant.
Consider a limited example. You have some non-feather producing replicator, how many mutations at what genetic loci are required to get a feather producing replicator.
You don't know?
Shades of ReMine!
And the feathers have to appear at the correct location and grow at the correct time.
And what are those times and how do you know?
In other words, the mutations in the stem cell not only have to produce the correct proteins but control when and where these proteins are produced.
Keratin? We have keratin in nails, skin, hair, etc. And the amino acid sequences of keratins in different species are not identical. You suck at picking examples to 'prove your point.'
And that's just the start of your genetic transformation problem. Reptiles have different respiratory systems than birds, different cardiovascular systems, different excretory systems, different musculoskeletal systems... How does a single lineage accumulate the mutations that would do this genetic transformation?
Why would that have to happen in a "single lineage"? You suck at this.
You seem to be implying that those systems differ by some major chasm. I once had a creationist insist that claws and nails were so totally different that evolution cannot even explain how one evolved from the other. You seem to be of that mindset.
How many mutations do you suppose would have been required to get an avian respiratory system from a reptilian one? And how did you come to that conclusion?

I'm explaining to you how microevolution works.
Not really.
And a series of microevolutionary adaptive steps takes huge numbers of replications for each step to create the new adaptive allele.
Um...
Evidence? And do not mention your usual as that is irrelevant. Do you think an altered limb, for example, requires specific mutations to alter all of the structures in that limb? Mutations for muscles, mutations for bones, etc.? Heck, do you know how to produce an allele? How many mutations are needed to get a new allele, by your understanding?

It is up to you to explain how microevolution can create this biodiversity. And you need to substantiate your explanation with repeatable experimentation if you want that explanation to be scientific.
And the same to you - as you reject that accepted explanation, you need to provide your explanation then substantiate your explanation with repeatable experimentation if you want that explanation to be scientific.

It is all well and good for creationists to attack evolution, but believe it or not, this is not a dichotomous issue. Your mere beliefs do not become true if evolution is wrong. I do wonder why people like you spend so much time attacking evolution rather than supporting your alternative. I suspect it has something to do with there being far far less evidence (and math) for what you wish to be true than what the evidence indicates.

I am pretty sure I know why you and your creationist pals play this game. I'm betting you do, too. But you are afraid to admit it.

====

You're pretty funny - you seem to think you have accomplished something, but you cannot even address simple questions and definitely cannot support your dopey assertions and such.
And the trying-to-pretend-you-wrote-something-else when your claims are easily seen by scrolling up? Classic creationist! Hilarious.
 
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Frank Robert

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There are more striking similarities between the early birds and the coelurosaurian dinosaurs suggested as their ancestors than there are striking differences - see Are Birds Really Dinosaurs?
I brought Alan update to date, several times, on the relationship between birds and reptiles but Alan never takes correction, he knows better with his childhood creationists beliefs. We just have to resign ourselves that Alan is doomed to making the same mistake over and over and over ad nauseam.
 
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Hans Blaster

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Are you claiming that abiogenesis is not part of the biologist dogma? And I mention junk DNA (which is also part of the biologist dogma) because one of the posters mentioned that both reptiles and birds can have a gene that produces keratin and therefore they must be related.

Like I said, these are things *you* mentioned, not us.
 
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Frank Robert

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You do know that reptiles don't have a loop of Henle and birds do? If you don't know what a loop of Henle is, look it up.
Similarities are expected between two species that have a common ancestor. Its naive to compare the similarities between species when it is the differences that matter.
 
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Alan Kleinman

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Yes, the process and explanation is called evolution. You have said that it's impossible through microevolution, which is the only part of evolution you think is factual, and that it's also not through macroevolution which you claim to be non-factual.
So how do species come about, if they can't do it through microevolution or macroevolution?
You have already demonstrated that you did not understand the physics and mathematics of evolutionary competition and it's clear that you still don't understand the physics and mathematics of microevolutionary adaptation. And I've given you the reason why microevolutionary adaptation is limited. It is limited by the multiplication rule of probabilities which requires huge populations for the process to work, even under the best of circumstances. If you think that recombination overcomes this limitation, give us a mathematical explanation.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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You have already demonstrated that you did not understand the physics and mathematics of evolutionary competition and it's clear that you still don't understand the physics and mathematics of microevolutionary adaptation. And I've given you the reason why microevolutionary adaptation is limited. It is limited by the multiplication rule of probabilities which requires huge populations for the process to work, even under the best of circumstances. If you think that recombination overcomes this limitation, give us a mathematical explanation.

You're the one who is going around acting like you have all the answers, not I. You're the one who has been comporting themselves like a self-professed genius on the limitations of evolution.
So answer my question: So, if species cannot occur by microevolution, a thing that you claim is factual, and then also that macroevolution, the part of evolution that explicitly allows new species to form, isn't factual either (according to you), how do new species form then?
 
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Frank Robert

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Are you claiming that abiogenesis is not part of the biologist dogma?
We know that it is very difficult to give up creationist myths learned in childhood.
 
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Alan Kleinman

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tas8831

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You have to cherry-pick tiny pieces of the genome between different taxonomic groups to find these genetic similarities and ignore all the genetic differences which are much larger than the similarities. That is a statistical mathematical blunder.
Math-boy pretending to understand genetic analyses is classic narcissism.
Yes, just tiny bits of the genome. Yes, ignoring all the differences. If you say so, pimple-popper.

15 seconds. It took me 15 seconds to find this. 10 of which were me typing. It has been out for about 1q1 years - you should update your knowledge base (forgot - creationists never do that):


Whole-genome phylogeny of mammals: Evolutionary information in genic and nongenic regions

I do note that as this came out in 2009, the authors mistakenly believed the ENCODE hype, but that has little relevance.
 
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Alan Kleinman

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You're the one who is going around acting like you have all the answers, not I. You're the one who has been comporting themselves like a self-professed genius on the limitations of evolution.
So answer my question: So, if species cannot occur by microevolution, a thing that you claim is factual, and then also that macroevolution, the part of evolution that explicitly allows new species to form, isn't factual either (according to you), how do new species form then?
When it comes to a scientific explanation of microevolution I do have the answers. Those answers predicted the behavior of the Kishony experiment before it was performed and simulates the Lenski experiment very accurately. It also explains why 3 drug therapy works for the treatment of HIV, why combination herbicides and pesticides work,... I haven't seen any explanations for these experimental and empirical observations coming from macroevolutionists.
 
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Warden_of_the_Storm

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When it comes to a scientific explanation of microevolution I do have the answers. Those answers predicted the behavior of the Kishony experiment before it was performed and simulates the Lenski experiment very accurately. It also explains why 3 drug therapy works for the treatment of HIV, why combination herbicides and pesticides work,... I haven't seen any explanations for these experimental and empirical observations coming from macroevolutionists.

Except that you are tacitly and very clearly avoiding answering my question, so I shall repeat it:
So, if species cannot occur by microevolution, a thing that you claim is factual, and then also that macroevolution, the part of evolution that explicitly allows new species to form, isn't factual either (according to you), how do new species form then?
 
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tas8831

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Are you claiming that abiogenesis is not part of the biologist dogma?

Are you - a non-scientist creationist - claiming it is?

Of course you are. Because you do not understand what the ToE even is.

Waiting for your probability stuff re: Yahweh creating a fully formed adult human male from silicates.
 
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tas8831

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Great Danes and Chihuahuas are both canines with homologous genomes but because of size disparity are unable to breed.
How did those size differences arise... Hmmm...
And I have all the experimental and empirical data supporting my claims about microevolution.
Now THAT is funny. Was that in your amazing paper that has 0 citations, or the one that has 7, most of which are you citing it?
If they had given you the correct explanation, you could explain the evolution of drug resistance and why cancer treatments fail.
You can't "explain" either of those, so who cares what you claim?

Why do creationists like you never actually try to support CREATION? Is it because you realize that it is impossible to do so?
 
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Alan Kleinman

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Math-boy pretending to understand genetic analyses is classic narcissism.
Yes, just tiny bits of the genome. Yes, ignoring all the differences. If you say so, pimple-popper.

15 seconds. It took me 15 seconds to find this. 10 of which were me typing. It has been out for about 1q1 years - you should update your knowledge base (forgot - creationists never do that):


Whole-genome phylogeny of mammals: Evolutionary information in genic and nongenic regions

I do note that as this came out in 2009, the authors mistakenly believed the ENCODE hype, but that has little relevance.
Did you even read your own links you dumb cluck?
However, the coding (coding for proteins, ribosomal RNAs, transfer RNAs, and other functional RNAs) portions of mammalian genomes can amount to as little as 1–3% of the whole genomic sequence, and it is debatable whether species phylogenies derived from a small, alignable subfraction of the whole genome are reliable. As for the noncoding sequence (the other 99%), much of its function is unknown, yet much of this portion is indeed transcribed.
This paper is making my argument against junk DNA!

Now, if you want to see how macroevolutionists bungle the mathematics of phylogenetics, read this link:
How to build a phylogenetic tree
The first thing to do is align the two DNA sequences together that you’re going to compare. Make sure you’re comparing the same gene! (Or other sequence.) Otherwise you are comparing apples to oranges.
Now let's see if the biologist that has a couple of dumbbell math courses under his belt can explain what's wrong with this kind of analysis.

You macroevolutionists have turned the field of biology into a carbuncle of science.
 
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Frank Robert

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You macroevolutionists have turned the field of biology into a carbuncle of science.
That is priceless coming from a creationist who doesn't know the difference between a species and dog breed.
 
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Alan Kleinman

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How did those size differences arise... Hmmm...
Breeding of variants with specific alleles that already exist in the gene pool.
Now THAT is funny. Was that in your amazing paper that has 0 citations, or the one that has 7, most of which are you citing it?
I don't expect citations from macroevolutionists, I expect citations from those with a serious interest in dealing with the problem of drug resistance and failed cancer treatments. Do you think two centuries of mathematically incompetent stories about evolution is going to be washed away instantly? The problem is trying to explain the physics and mathematics of evolution to those whose scientific training is limited to a couple of courses in dumbbell math and a survey course in physics. You macroevolutionists even bungled the very simple physics and mathematics of evolutionary competition. How pathetic can a college education in biology get?
You can't "explain" either of those, so who cares what you claim?

Why do creationists like you never actually try to support CREATION? Is it because you realize that it is impossible to do so?
I may not have very many citations for my paper (yet), but you don't have any papers at all. You macroevolutionists can't even explain the Kishony experiment and that mathematics is trivial. We all can see what a couple of courses of dumbbell math and a survey course in physics get you, the ability to write science-fiction.
 
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