John Owens and the recipient of Christ’s atonement

[Hammster]

Jesus tells us the role of the Holy Spirit to the world. Not everyone receives it as per Acts 7:51, the Holy Spirit is commonly resisted.

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 Of sin, because they believe not on me; 10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; 11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. 12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. 13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.​

Why do you think that He’s using “world” to mean every person on earth?

 

[zoidar]

I’m not sure of the time. It may be simultaneous, so the progression is logical, not temporal.

If there is a time span in between, then it means we can have the Holy Spirit without being saved. I'm against that idea. But you say it might be simultaneous, so in that case there is no problem.

 

[zoidar]

What’s the difference believing the truth and saving faith? They seem like the same thing to me.

I want this question to sink in a little before I reply. But I will answer it.

 

[Hammster]

If there is a time span in between, then it means we can have the Holy Spirit without being saved. I'm against that idea. But you say it might be simultaneous, so in that case there is no problem.

No, because “having the Holy Spirit” (whatever you mean by that) is not the same thing as regeneration.

 

[Hammster]

I want this question to sink a little before I reply. But I will answer it.

Btw, I do appreciate our discussions. Having a debate without all the vitriol is refreshing.

 

[zoidar]

No, because “having the Holy Spirit” (whatever you mean by that) is not the same thing as regeneration.

Here we disagree.

I think this translation is correct:

ESV Ephesians 1:13
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.

"Sealed with the Holy Spirit" means the Holy Spirit has been received, IOW, we have the Holy Spirit.

However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
— Romans 8:9

 

[Hammster]

Here we disagree.

I think this translation is correct:

ESV Ephesians 1:13
In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.

"Sealed with the Holy Spirit" means the Holy Spirit has been received, IOW, we have the Holy Spirit.

However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him.
— Romans 8:9

That’s not how sealed would have been understood by Paul’s readers. They would understand that sealed means ownership, like the king’s seal on a document.

 

[John Mullally]

Why do you think that He’s using “world” to mean every person on earth?

The term "world" used by NT translators generally means the whole of humanity or unbelievers. Its generally negative connotation is due to man's rebellion. If you are going to get into an argument with on what "world" means here go ahead and study the Greek, which might not help, before getting back to me - I am not wasting my time.

1 Peter 3:9 and 1 Timothy 2:4 assert that God desires all to be saved. Whereas, 2 Cor 4:4 indicates that Satan, interestingly termed the god of this world, is in the opposite business - as he blinds unbelievers to the Gospel. If Reformist doctrine of Total Depravity is true, there is be no need for Satan to blind unbelievers to the Gospel.

 

[Hammster]

Usage of "world" used by NT translators generally means the whole of humanity or unbelievers. Its generally negative connotation is due to man's rebellion.

1 Peter 3:9 and 1 Timothy 2:4 assert that God desires all to be saved. Whereas, 2 Cor 4:4 indicates that Satan, interestingly termed the god of this world, is in the opposite business - as he blinds unbelievers to the Gospel. If Reformist doctrine of Total Depravity is true, there is be no need for Satan to blind unbelievers to the Gospel.

You might want to check out your understanding of world. John alone uses it at least eight different ways, and as many as 12. So it’s not as simple as it may look.

 

[zoidar]

.

 

[John Mullally]

You might want to check out your understanding of world. John alone uses it at least eight different ways, and as many as 12. So it’s not as simple as it may look.

Feel free to spend your time on this red herring.

The term "Jack" has 10 different definitions in Websters. But I don't have any difficulty determining what it is being used for everytime I hear it based upon context.

You deliberately missed the rest of my post.

 

[Hammster]

Feel free to spend your time on this red herring.

The term "Jack" has 10 different definitions in Websters. But I don't have any difficulty determining what it is being used for everytime I hear it.

You deliberately missed the rest of my post.

That’s why I asked you how you chose that definition. The rest of your post didn’t address the question.

 

[Hammster]

1 Peter 3:9 and 1 Timothy 2:4 assert that God desires all to be saved. Whereas, 2 Cor 4:4 indicates that Satan, interestingly termed the god of this world, is in the opposite business - as he blinds unbelievers to the Gospel. If Reformist doctrine of Total Depravity is true, there is be no need for Satan to blind unbelievers to the Gospel

I’ll address this separately. How do you know that “all” means every single person on earth?

 

[John Mullally]

I’ll address this separately. How do you know that “all” means every single person on earth?

You first. Why don't you think it means every single person on earth?

Aren't you the least bit concerned in that you might be proclaiming God wants some to be damned, when the NT states otherwise.

 

[Hammster]

You first. Why don't you think it means every single person on earth?

You made the statement. Trying to divert leads me to believe that you don’t really have an answer, which is fine.

 

[John Mullally]

You made the statement. Trying to divert leads me to believe that you don’t really have an answer, which is fine.

I would be concerned if I taught that God desires the non-elect to be damned, when the NT teaches that he wants all men to be saved.

Paul uses the term "all men" in verse 1, 4, and 6 of 1 Timothy 2. Due to their proximity, "all men" must be referring to the same group in these 3 cases. In 1 Timothy 2:2 he indicates that the use of "all men" from 1 Timothy 2:1 includes earthly rulers. Therefore the terms "all men" in these instances includes "earthly rulers". All "earthly rulers" are not elect. Therefore the use of "all men" here cannot be whittled down to the "elect". 1 Timothy 2:4 affirms God desires "all men" to be saved. And 1 Timothy 2:6 affirms that Christ gave himself a ransom for "all men". If "all men" must include some earthly rulers that are not elect and it deals with God desire for salvation, then the only possible reasonable explanation is that "all men" in these instances of 1 Timothy 2 means every single person. Herod and Nero were earthly rulers in Paul's day.

2 Timothy 2:1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

 

[Hammster]

I would be concerned if I taught that God desires the non-elect to be damned, when the NT teaches that he wants all men to be saved.

Paul uses the term "all men" in verse 1, 4, and 6 of 1 Timothy 2. Due to their proximity, "all men" must be referring to the same group in these 3 cases. In 1 Timothy 2:2 he indicates that the use of "all men" from 1 Timothy 2:1 includes earthly rulers. Therefore the terms "all men" in these instances includes "earthly rulers". All "earthly rulers" are not elect. Therefore the use of "all men" here cannot be whittled down to the "elect". 1 Timothy 2:4 affirms God desires "all men" to be saved. And 1 Timothy 2:6 affirms that Christ gave himself a ransom for "all men". If "all men" must include some earthly rulers that are not elect and it deals with God desire for salvation, then the only possible reasonable explanation is that "all men" in these instances of 1 Timothy 2 means every single person. Herod and Nero were earthly rulers in Paul's day.

2 Timothy 2:1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

I know that’s what you think. But grammatically, “all” could mean “all types”. There’s nothing in the passage that prefects Paul from meaning all types of men. I’ll show you.


First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all types men, for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all types men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all types, the testimony given at the proper time.
— 1 Timothy 2:1-6

 

[BBAS 64]

Jesus tells us the role of the Holy Spirit to the world. Not everyone receives it as per Acts 7:51, the Holy Spirit is commonly resisted.

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 Of sin, because they believe not on me; 10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more; 11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged. 12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. 13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. 14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.​

Good Day, John

Acts 7:51 “You stiff-necked people, uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit. As your fathers did, so do you.

Yes " uncircumcised heart" people always do yes resist they are on need of regeneration.

God must choose to remove their heart of stone give them a heart of flesh, then choose to put His spirt with in them and cause them to walk in His ways and obey His statues.

He command repentance ( statue) , with the new heart comes new desires for His adopted children. Repentance and Faith is granted out of the abundance of His Grace... He will be our God and we are his people. God Himself is the sole effective and sufficient cause of our Salvation we reap the results to His Glory Alone!

The wonderful work of God in the New Covenant.

In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead. And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.

In Him,

Bill

 

[BBAS 64]

I know that’s what you think. But grammatically, “all” could mean “all types”. There’s nothing in the passage that prefects Paul from meaning all types of men. I’ll show you.


First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all types men, for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all types men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all types, the testimony given at the proper time.
— 1 Timothy 2:1-6

Good Day, Hamster

Tried to get John to work though some of the grammar and exegete the text as text.... no luck.

Even supplied the link to Premier NT Greek scholar Thomas R. Schreiner for His consideration on some of the proof texting going on here not sure he even considered it seriously.

“Problematic Texts” for Definite Atonement in the Pastoral and General Epistles by Thomas R. Schreiner

In Him,

Bill

 

[John Mullally]

I know that’s what you think. But grammatically, “all” could mean “all types”. There’s nothing in the passage that prefects Paul from meaning all types of men. I’ll show you.


First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all types men, for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity. This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all types men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all types, the testimony given at the proper time.
— 1 Timothy 2:1-6

This is ridiculous because it neuters the passage - especially verse 4-6. It also reads very poorly. None of the translations read like this. This technique can be applied nilly-willy to make any portion of the word of God of no effect.

Plus if the instances of all types refer to the same subject, that subject still cannot be whittled down to the elect because verse 2 constrains all types to include "all in authority" - like Nero and Herod. Maybe you can get rid of that argument by changing "all in authority" to "all types in authority".

Here's an idea, create a Milquetoast version of the NT that neuters or removes the sections you don't like - oh, wait the Danish Bible Society already did that.