John Owens and the recipient of Christ’s atonement

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This is John Owen’s concise puzzle concerning the recipient of Christ’s atonement on the cross. Arguably the strongest argument of the doctrine of limited/definite atonement besides Scriptures.

Owen contended,
The Father imposed his wrath upon the Son, and the Son was punished for, either:

1. All the sins of all men.
2. All the sins of some men.
3. Some of the sins of all men.

In which case, it may be said:

a. That if the last be true, all men have some sins to answer for, and so none are saved.
b. That if the second be true, then Christ, in their stead suffered for all the sins of all the elect in the whole world, and this is the truth.
c. But if the first be the case, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins?

You answer, because of unbelief. I ask, is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it is, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!

Indeed, Jesus dying for His own is one of the hardest biblical realities to swallow in the Scriptures. Yet, it’s the truth.


In Him,

Bill
 
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It is the unpardonable sin of unbelief. The rejection of the Holy Spirit. Be blessed.

Good day, Maria

I disagree as I for many years suffered the pains of sinful unbelief.

But God..
I was indeed forgiven, even now he helps my unbelief.


“Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men” (v. 31).

BTW Blasphemy is not rejection.

The Unpardonable Sin

In Him,

Bill
 
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Maria Billingsley

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Good day, Maria

I disagree as I for many years suffered the pains of sinful unbelief.

But God..
I was indeed forgiven, even now he helps my unbelief.


“Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men” (v. 31).

BTW Blasphemy is not rejection.

The Unpardonable Sin

In Him,

Bill
I disagree. Speaking evil of God is blasphemy and would be considered unbelief. Jesus Christ of Nazareth came as God in the flesh. He embodied the Holy Spirit as He was able to breath the Holy Spirit into men. The Pharisees did not believe Him. And many died in unbelief. Attributing the power of God to the power of Satan is unbelief. Blessings.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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Good day, Maria

I disagree as I for many years suffered the pains of sinful unbelief.

But God..
I was indeed forgiven, even now he helps my unbelief.


“Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men” (v. 31).

BTW Blasphemy is not rejection.

The Unpardonable Sin

In Him,

Bill
Cont.. Keep in mind that it is the Holy Spirit that brings us into repentance. Without the Holy Spirit one can never be saved from sin, the second death ,as they are unable to be forgiven through their rejection. The condition of the heart is harded by unbelief. In other words the Pharisees had God in the flesh in their midst however , they were in unbelief. Even so , when He left them there was still a chance, He sent His Holy Spirit to anyone who believed however if He is rejected as well then there is no more hope for them, as they are still speaking evil of the Holy Spirit through unbelief.
 
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rhomphaeam

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I disagree. Speaking evil of God is blasphemy and would be considered unbelief. Jesus Christ of Nazareth came as God in the flesh. He embodied the Holy Spirit as He was able to breath the Holy Spirit into men. The Pharisees did not believe Him. And many died in unbelief. Attributing the power of God to the power of Satan is unbelief. Blessings.

Many believers simply have no idea what true wickedness really is and I believe that this is because we all so often fail to take account of what manner of men were some of the Pharisees.

Satanism - in a meaning that asserts that men are choosing to serve that wicked on - is only truly possible when belief in God is a fact of men. A person has to believe that God exists before they can serve Satan because even Satan himself first knew God before he desired to be like God. As a former occultist my whole opposition to God and my determination to form an occult order was predicated precisely on my anger at God. It was at the point that I had written my theosophical formulas and rites that the Father saved me - and the remarkable fact is that He didn't even mention it. Imagine that!

I was a High Church solo treble as a child and sang with such childish love of God that people wept when they considered God. The Pharisees were similarly knowing of God and yet they saw with their own eyes what you and I have never seen - they saw Christ in His physical body raising the dead and healing the sick and casting out demons. They knew by His works that He was the Christ - the Son of the Living God. Yet they chose to say that He was working by the power of Satan.

They heard the witness of the Father at the river Jordan and they heard the witness of John concerning the Holy Spirit and they saw the substance of these things - yet they blasphemed the Holy Spirit by attributing the works of Christ to the power of Satan. And that Satan is the one to whom Christ was taken by the Holy Spirit to be tempted in the wilderness. Who in his utter opposition and hopeless condition asked Christ to worship Him.

Jesus only began speaking in parables after the blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. And in the Temple the leading men of Israel asked Him to come out with it and to declare whether He was the Christ or not. The Lord told them that even if they could not believe His words - then they ought to believe His works.

Works and not words are the separating reality of the words that constitute blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Unbelief is neither words nor works if we hold our tongues in check. And every man born of Adam is ruined by Adam's works because he listened to Eve's words. Whereas our confession of faith is sufficient to please God even when our works often are absent. Thats not a riddle - it is prescribed by Scripture and given to us in precisely those terms. So unbelief is not the problem - the problem with blasphemy is believing in God. As James says, 'so you believe in one God - so do the devils and they tremble.'
 
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bling

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This is John Owen’s concise puzzle concerning the recipient of Christ’s atonement on the cross. Arguably the strongest argument of the doctrine of limited/definite atonement besides Scriptures.

Owen contended,
The Father imposed his wrath upon the Son, and the Son was punished for, either:

1. All the sins of all men.
2. All the sins of some men.
3. Some of the sins of all men.

In which case, it may be said:

a. That if the last be true, all men have some sins to answer for, and so none are saved.
b. That if the second be true, then Christ, in their stead suffered for all the sins of all the elect in the whole world, and this is the truth.
c. But if the first be the case, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins?

You answer, because of unbelief. I ask, is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it is, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!

Indeed, Jesus dying for His own is one of the hardest biblical realities to swallow in the Scriptures. Yet, it’s the truth.


In Him,

Bill
It takes a lot to cover atonement, but one of the things John Owen’s gets “wrong” is the idea: “Christ being the atonement sacrifice does not mean “Atonement” took place. In other words: “There is more to atonement then just the sacrifice”, it is a process, which humans are part of, so Christ can be the sacrifice for all humans, but that does not mean atonement took place for all humans. Many people think atonement is something between God and Christ, with Christ helping God out some way, but man plays a part in atonement.

There is a part the sinner plays (again this would be understood best by those Jews who had experienced the atonement process for (minor unintentional sins). Jesus and God have both done their part in the atonement process, but the individual sinner has to complete their part or atonement is not completed and if atonement is not completed the forgiveness is not assured. (God’s forgiveness for minor (unintentional sins) came after the correct completion of the atonement process (Lev. 5)).

Lev.4 starts atonement off giving details of what the priest must do, which you should read and understand, but Lev.5 gets into more detail about the individual, so please read Lev. 5 with much thought. I find people with pet theories of atonement skip Lev. 5 all together and might go to Lev. 16, but the day of atonement has some lite symbolic references to Christ, Lev 5 is a closer representation. I will discuss Lev. 16 if you want to take the time, but it takes some explaining of what and why it was needed by itself. Please read Lev. 5 before going further.

Atonement is much more than the sacrifice itself; it is a process which we can see from the Old Testament examples of the atonement process.

We can start with Lev. 5: 3 or if they touch human uncleanness (anything that would make them unclean) even though they are unaware of it, but then they learn of it and realize their guilt; 4 or if anyone thoughtlessly takes an oath to do anything, whether good or evil (in any matter one might carelessly swear about) even though they are unaware of it, but then they learn of it and realize their guilt— 5 when anyone becomes aware that they are guilty in any of these matters, they must confess in what way they have sinned. 6 As a penalty for the sin they have committed, they must bring to the Lord a female lamb or goat from the flock as a sin offering; and the priest shall make atonement for them for their sin. … 10 The priest shall then offer the other as a burnt offering in the prescribed way and make atonement for them for the sin they have committed, and they will be forgiven.

Lev. 5 is talking about some really minor sins almost accidental sins and very much unintentional sins, there is no atonement process at this time for major sins, intentional direct disobedience toward God (these require banishment or death of the sinner).

The atonement process includes confessing, securing a good offering, personally bringing the offering to the priests at the temple altar, the priest has to offer it correctly and after the atonement process is correctly completed the sinner’s sins will be forgiven.

Note also the relationship between the sinner and the offering, the offering is “as a penalty for the sin” and not a replacement for the sinner. The idea of “penalty” is a “punishment” for the sinner, yet punishment of your child is better translated “disciplining”.

Reading all of Lev. 5: we have a lamb, two doves and a bag of flour all being an atoning sacrifice for the exact same sin, but vary with the wealth of the sinner, yet God does not consider the wealthy person of great value then the poor person, so what is happening? We can only conclude there is an attempt to equalize the hardship on the sinner (penalty/punishment/discipline). In fact, this might be the main factor in the atonement process at least Lev. 5. God is not only forgiving the sins, but seeing to the discipling of the sinner (like any Loving parent tries to do if possible). The problem is it can only be done for minor sins at this time.

Please notice there is an “and” just before “they will be forgiven”, suggesting a separate action, so the forgiveness is not part of the atonement process, but comes afterwards (this will be discussed more later).

Do you see the benefit for the Jewish people (nothing really to help God out here) going through this atonement process? That rich person had to water, feed, hang on to a lamb, he is not the lamb’s shepherd, so for hours waiting in line to get to the priest he fighting this lamb and the poor person may have skipped meals to get that bag of flour, so he has an equal hardship also. They are going to be more careful in the future and those around them will not want to go through the same thing. Yes, they can experience worship, forgiveness, and fellowship in the process.

We should be able to extrapolate up from extremely minor sins to rebellious disobedience directly against God, but that is a huge leap, so the hardship on the sinner will have to be horrendous, the sacrifice of much greater value (penalty for the sinner), and this will take a much greater Priest.

Secondly: The part the sinner plays are nothing: worthy of anything, righteous, deserving of anything, or honorable. It is more like criminal, horrible and disgraceful, but necessary.

Christ Crucified is described by Paul, Peter, Jesus, John and the Hebrew writer as a ransom payment (it is not even said to be like a ransom payment, but it was a ransom payment).

I find the ransom description more than just an analogy and an excellent fit and I am not talking about the “Ransom Theory of Atonement”

(The “Ransom Theory of Atonement” has God paying satan the cruel torture, humiliation and murder of Christ but: Does God owe Satan anything? Is there some cosmic “law” saying you have to pay the kidnapper? Would it not be wrong for God to pay satan, if God could just as easily and safely take back His children without paying satan?)


Would a ransom as those in the first century might understand it (it was well known Caesura at 21 had been kidnapped and a ransom paid for him) included the following elements:


1. Someone other than the captive paying the ransom.

2. The payment is a huge sacrificial payment for the payer, who would personally prefer not to pay.

3. Since those that come to God must come as children, it is the children of God that go to the Father.

4. The payer cannot safely or for some other reason get his children any other way than making the payment.

5. The kidnapper is totally undeserving.

6. The kidnapper can accept or reject the payment.

We can agree on most of the parts with the atonement process being just like a ransom experience: The children of God be held out of the kingdom; Deity making the huge sacrificial payment; Christ’s torture, humiliation and murder on the cross being the payment; and the freedom given the child to enter the kingdom after the ransom is paid. But who is this unworthy kidnapper God will pay to release His child.

We can only come to our Father as children, so who is keeping the nonbeliever in the unbelieving state (who is this kidnapper)?


There is the one ransom, but could there be many unworthy kidnappers holding the children of God back?

Does not the nonbeliever himself hold the potential child of God (within them) back from the kingdom?

If the kidnapper does accept the payment has he/she done something worthy or virtually criminal?

You do have a substitute at the cross, standing in for you, but is it those that cried crucify him, the religious leaders, the Roman soldiers, one of the thieves, or maybe one of the disciples who ran away. To say: “Christ took my place” is extremely bold on your part, although you can be crucified “with” Christ like a deserving thief and join Christ in paradise.

You do good to realize someone is standing in for you at the cross, but is it one of those who yelled “Crucify Him”, maybe one of the thieves, a Roman soldier, a Pharisee, or one of the disciples who ran away, but how bold do you have to be to say: “Christ was taking my place?” Are you so committed as to say: “I would stay on the cross when you could leave”?


Look at a real “Christ crucified” sermon of Peter Acts 2 and he says nothing about Christ taking our place on the cross.

That is just an introduction to think about, we really need to at least start with Lev. 5 and go through every Bible reference to the atonement process.
 
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zoidar

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This is John Owen’s concise puzzle concerning the recipient of Christ’s atonement on the cross. Arguably the strongest argument of the doctrine of limited/definite atonement besides Scriptures.

Owen contended,
The Father imposed his wrath upon the Son, and the Son was punished for, either:

1. All the sins of all men.
2. All the sins of some men.
3. Some of the sins of all men.

In which case, it may be said:

a. That if the last be true, all men have some sins to answer for, and so none are saved.
b. That if the second be true, then Christ, in their stead suffered for all the sins of all the elect in the whole world, and this is the truth.
c. But if the first be the case, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins?

You answer, because of unbelief. I ask, is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it is, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!

Indeed, Jesus dying for His own is one of the hardest biblical realities to swallow in the Scriptures. Yet, it’s the truth.


In Him,

Bill

These questions are from my understanding drawn from the wrong conclusion what the atonement sacrifice is. The sacrifice of Christ is a sacrifice that atones sins. It doesn't cover sins like the OT sacrifices, it removes sin.
 
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Hammster

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These questions are from my understanding drawn from the wrong conclusion what the atonement sacrifice is. The sacrifice of Christ is a sacrifice that atones sins. It doesn't cover sins like the OT sacrifices, it removes sin.
Does it remove

1. All the sins of all men.
2. All the sins of some men.
3. Some of the sins of all men

?
 
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zoidar

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Does it remove

1. All the sins of all men.
2. All the sins of some men.
3. Some of the sins of all men

?

Basically, as we are born again all past sins are removed. But as life goes on I believe sin will come back in one form or another, in need of being confessed and removed again, until the final removal before we enter heaven. This is only for some. This is the atonement part.

Then there is Christ's victory over sin. That victory is fullfilled through the cross. A victory over satan, evil and all sin everywhere, for all time and this is for all men. We can say our sins, all sins in the whole world are disarmed by Christ's victory.

The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away (removes) the sin of the world!
— John 1:29


f58d8e29bdcc6dc8bbf96237f63364ef.jpg
 
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Basically, as we are born again all past sins are removed. But as life goes on I believe sin will come back in one form or another, in need of being confessed and removed again, until the final removal before we enter heaven. This is only for some. This is the atonement part.

Then there is Christ's victory over sin. That victory is fullfilled through the cross. A victory over satan, evil and all sin everywhere, for all time and this is for all men. We can say our sins, all sins in the whole world are disarmed by Christ's victory.

The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away (removes) the sin of the world!
— John 1:29


f58d8e29bdcc6dc8bbf96237f63364ef.jpg
So your answer is 3.
 
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zoidar

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So your answer is 3.

No, nr. 4
Some sins of some men in this life here on this Earth, all sins of some men after this life (those of the first "some" that endures.)

But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.
— Matthew 24:13

If we still have sin in our life, sin has not completely been removed/atoned. Are any of us sinless? I very much doubt that, so how are all our sins removed?
 
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zoidar

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So your answer is 3.

I think you get what I'm trying to say, that I believe when the Bible talks about atonement or reconcilation it's about our personal reconciliation or atonement with God by repentance and faith through the atoning sacrifice of Christ.

So the question one may ask is how did Jesus win the victory over sin through the cross. Was Jesus punished by God for past, present and future sins or did he take on himself the consequence of sin, dealing with sin itself?

If you are right that Jesus was punished by God for our sins, then I see your point that Jesus must have forgiven some sins of all men. That is one reason I doubt the idea of God punishing Jesus being correct. But this is something I spend time thinking about every now and then, exactly what was accomplished by the cross. We know it's a victory over sin, other than it's not that obvious to me. Another question is how the view of Jesus sacrifice effects our life as Christians.
 
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Hammster

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I think you get what I'm trying to say, that I believe when the Bible talks about atonement or reconcilation it's about our personal reconciliation or atonement with God by repentance and faith through the atoning sacrifice of Christ.

So the question one may ask is how did Jesus win the victory over sin through the cross. Was Jesus punished by God for past, present and future sins or did he take on himself the consequence of sin, dealing with sin itself?

If you are right that Jesus was punished by God for our sins, then I see your point that Jesus must have forgiven some sins of all men. That is one reason I doubt the idea of God punishing Jesus being correct. But this is something I spend time thinking about every now and then, exactly what was accomplished by the cross. We know it's a victory over sin, other than it's not that obvious to me. Another question is how the view of Jesus sacrifice effects our life as a Christians.
Actually, my view is that Jesus paid for all of the sins of some men. And I think that should hold true for anyone except Open Theists. My assumption, even if I was to hold to a synergistic framework, would be that God knows ahead of time who would believe. And it would be for those sins which He punished His Son.
 
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zoidar

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Actually, my view is that Jesus paid for all of the sins of some men. And I think that should hold true for anyone except Open Theists. My assumption, even if I was to hold to a synergistic framework, would be that God knows ahead of time who would believe. And it would be for those sins which He punished His Son.

If Jesus took the punishment that sin deserves, then it doesn't mean our punishment is removed. It just means sin is conquered for every person in the world and when we come to Jesus, he takes our sins away so we don't have to suffer punishment. That's kind of where I am.
 
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If Jesus took the punishment that sin deservs, then it doesn't mean our punishment is removed. It just means sin is conquered for every person in the world and when we come to Jesus, he takes our sins away so we don't have to suffer punishment. That's kind of where I am.
What does sin deserve?
 
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zoidar

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If Jesus took the punishment and death, then what are we punished for?

How about an analogy? We like them, don't we? ^_^ However how incomplete they might be.

Two brothers murdered the president. They get caught and are now facing the judge in court. The judge are just to sentence them to lifetime in prison as the shorter of the brothers, falls down on his knees in tears, asking the judge if there is no other way. The judge looks at him: "Well, I have this innocent Son, who is doing time for murder which he didn't commit. If you promise to come to my house and be my lifetime servant, I'll let my son have your sentence". The taller of the brothers yells out: "No, way I'll be your puppet". So the taller of the brothers is sent to prison and the shorter brother becomes a servant to the judge.

If the taller brother had agreed to become a lifetime servant to the judge, also his sentence had been put on the judge's son. The son on the other hand is not being punished more or less depending on how many people's sentences he gets to carry. The sentence for murder is allready on the son, and lifetime is the maximum punishment.
 
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This is John Owen’s concise puzzle concerning the recipient of Christ’s atonement on the cross. Arguably the strongest argument of the doctrine of limited/definite atonement besides Scriptures.

Owen contended,
The Father imposed his wrath upon the Son, and the Son was punished for, either:

1. All the sins of all men.
2. All the sins of some men.
3. Some of the sins of all men.

In which case, it may be said:

a. That if the last be true, all men have some sins to answer for, and so none are saved.
b. That if the second be true, then Christ, in their stead suffered for all the sins of all the elect in the whole world, and this is the truth.
c. But if the first be the case, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins?

You answer, because of unbelief. I ask, is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it is, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!

Indeed, Jesus dying for His own is one of the hardest biblical realities to swallow in the Scriptures. Yet, it’s the truth.


In Him,

Bill
This reasoning assumes that those who Christ paid for will be saved. 2 Peter 2:1 identifies false prophets on their way to destruction as being paid for by God. If you read further in 2 Peter 2, it is evident that these false prophets were once believers.
 
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