Question For LCMS

FaithT

Well-Known Member
Dec 1, 2019
2,349
646
Midwest
✟153,209.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
One thing as a relatively new Lutheran (LCMS) I’ve been struggling with is the distant starlight problem. For a Catholic, which I used to be, this isn’t a problem at all because Catholicism is open to an old earth, billions of years old.
How do you, from the LCMS, explain starlight that is billions of light years away, can be seen on earth; an earth that is supposedly 6000 years old?

Daniel9v9 and I have discussed this before, I started a thread here about it too, but I’d like to discuss it again.
Sometimes I think it would be easier to just return to the Catholic Church.
 
Last edited:

tampasteve

Pray for peace in Israel
Christian Forums Staff
Administrator
Angels Team
CF Senior Ambassador
Supporter
May 15, 2017
25,210
7,289
Tampa
✟768,102.00
Country
United States
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I'm not sure that there is a really LCMS answer. One that I have heard is that "God created it to look that way", which I suppose is one way to look at it.
 
Upvote 0

FaithT

Well-Known Member
Dec 1, 2019
2,349
646
Midwest
✟153,209.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
This, below, talks about how God creating starlight fully mature doesn’t work. I was satisfied with that answer until I read more on the subject.


<<<<<<<Some Christians have proposed that God created the beams of light from distant stars already on their way to the earth. After all, Adam didn’t need any time to grow from a baby because he was made as an adult. Likewise, it is argued that the universe was made mature, and so perhaps the light was created in-transit. Of course, the universe was indeed made to function right from the first week, and many aspects of it were indeed created “mature.” The only problem with assuming that the light was created in-transit is that we see things happen in space. For example, we see stars change brightness and move. Sometimes we see stars explode. We see these things because their light has reached us.

But if God created the light beams already on their way, then that means none of the events we see in space (beyond a distance of 6,000 light-years) actually happened. It would mean that those exploding stars never exploded or existed; God merely painted pictures of these fictional events. It seems uncharacteristic of God to make illusions like this. God made our eyes to accurately probe the real universe; so we can trust that the events that we see in space really happened. For this reason, most creation scientists believe that light created in-transit is not the best way to respond to the distant starlight argument. Let me suggest that the answer to distant starlight lies in some of the unstated assumptions that secular astronomers make.>>>>>>>

@Daniel9v9
 
  • Like
Reactions: Halbhh
Upvote 0

tampasteve

Pray for peace in Israel
Christian Forums Staff
Administrator
Angels Team
CF Senior Ambassador
Supporter
May 15, 2017
25,210
7,289
Tampa
✟768,102.00
Country
United States
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
This, below, talks about how God creating starlight fully mature doesn’t work. I was satisfied with that answer until I read more on the subject.


<<<<<<<Some Christians have proposed that God created the beams of light from distant stars already on their way to the earth. After all, Adam didn’t need any time to grow from a baby because he was made as an adult. Likewise, it is argued that the universe was made mature, and so perhaps the light was created in-transit. Of course, the universe was indeed made to function right from the first week, and many aspects of it were indeed created “mature.” The only problem with assuming that the light was created in-transit is that we see things happen in space. For example, we see stars change brightness and move. Sometimes we see stars explode. We see these things because their light has reached us.

But if God created the light beams already on their way, then that means none of the events we see in space (beyond a distance of 6,000 light-years) actually happened. It would mean that those exploding stars never exploded or existed; God merely painted pictures of these fictional events. It seems uncharacteristic of God to make illusions like this. God made our eyes to accurately probe the real universe; so we can trust that the events that we see in space really happened. For this reason, most creation scientists believe that light created in-transit is not the best way to respond to the distant starlight argument. Let me suggest that the answer to distant starlight lies in some of the unstated assumptions that secular astronomers make.>>>>>>>

@Daniel9v9
I would not buy into the idea that he just made light and the events/bodies that cause the light are/were fictional or that they are an illusion.

I would say that He made the events that all caused it and the light all made in transit. Basically, God made everything as if it all started billions of years ago, all fully formed and functional.

I don't personally believe that, but I think that is what you have to look at as one possibility if you believe in the Young Earth and are trying to reconcile the old light problem.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Halbhh
Upvote 0

Halbhh

Everything You say is Life to me
Supporter
Mar 17, 2015
17,173
9,191
catholic -- embracing all Christians
✟1,152,895.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
AIG explains why this won’t work but I can’t post the link to it.
Well, as I see it, whether it would not make sense in terms of physics isn't even the issue, as God could do anything, being God, by definition the creator of this physics, and still having whatever ability/tools He used, and able to change or manipulate it will, and do the impossible. In other words, it would not matter if it seems physically to make sense with known physics.

But to me, compared to that viewpoint of light and other phenomena made to appear as if old, we'd need to ask whether God is subject to time itself. (of course, then we'd all agree He is not controlled by time, not subject to it)

What is a billion or 9 billions years to God? Perhaps any span of time in this Universe would be no different perhaps than 1 second or an hour, or any other time span, for Him.
 
  • Like
Reactions: tampasteve
Upvote 0

FaithT

Well-Known Member
Dec 1, 2019
2,349
646
Midwest
✟153,209.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I would not buy into the idea that he just made light and the events/bodies that cause the light are/were fictional or that they are an illusion.

I would say that He made the events that all caused it and the light all made in transit. Basically, God made everything as if it all started billions of years ago, all fully formed and functional.

I don't personally believe that, but I think that is what you have to look at as one possibility if you believe in the Young Earth and are trying to reconcile the old light problem.
I just feel like I’m grasping at straws to make the LCMS teaching fit with science. My pastor knows I believe in an old earth and the other day I said I was on the fence about it but I’m back to the old earth belief.
 
Upvote 0

FaithT

Well-Known Member
Dec 1, 2019
2,349
646
Midwest
✟153,209.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Well, as I see it, whether it would not make sense in terms of physics isn't even the issue, as God could do anything, being God, by definition the creator of this physics, and still having whatever ability/tools He used, and able to change or manipulate it will, and do the impossible. In other words, it would not matter if it seems physically to make sense with known physics.

But to me, compared to that viewpoint of light and other phenomena made to appear as if old, we'd need to ask whether God is subject to time itself. (of course, then we'd all agree He is not controlled by time, not subject to it)

What is a billion or 9 billions years to God? Perhaps any span of time in this Universe would be no different perhaps than 1 second or an hour, or any other time span, for Him.


But what about supernovas? If God made starlight mature then what we see now wouldn’t be real. Or something. I’m trying to loosely quote what I read but am not doing a very good job of it.
 
Upvote 0

.Jeremiah.

Well-Known Member
Jul 26, 2021
505
378
71
The South
✟21,473.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
i wonder, what if the age of the earth is not important?


is it possible that we sometimes try too hard to get the answers, usually in our own minds, with the confirmation of others?


i am speaking from my own past


i had great consternation studying Genesis 1 through 3.


but I was very DETERMINED to figure it all out. and figure it out as soon as possible.


being a type A personality, I always strove to find all my answers on my own, asap


I would think out all the difficult and conflicting verses, and attempt to put it all together in a lovely mental package, supported by commentators and others. over and over again.


but it never really seemed to work out, in a cohesive way, and make sense


after much despair, I gave up, and shortly afterwards the Lord in his infinite graciousness opened my eyes so that I could understand it better. much better.


i am sure that what I now see is nothing compared to what I will someday see, but at least it makes sense now.

there is a key to getting from point A to point B, but I’m not bright enough to figure out what it is, even though I have my suspicions


Thank you Lord
 
Upvote 0

Halbhh

Everything You say is Life to me
Supporter
Mar 17, 2015
17,173
9,191
catholic -- embracing all Christians
✟1,152,895.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
But what about supernovas? If God made starlight mature then what we see now wouldn’t be real. Or something. I’m trying to loosely quote what I read but am not doing a very good job of it.
I get what you mean. I'm Lutheran in a general way, not really fixed into one type (I see myself as belonging in any Lutheran church, regardless of label), but would not want to break the SOP rules about any doctrine particular to the LCMS. The Catholic church you mentioned considers it optional to believe either way about something like the age of Earth? I wonder if in practice a LCMS church is really different (I'm asking), whether they have diversity of views (like all churches I've attended). I've noticed over and over that when I talk to people in a congregation, they have diverse views, and agree with some things and not others.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

FaithT

Well-Known Member
Dec 1, 2019
2,349
646
Midwest
✟153,209.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I keep trying to c&p things to show you, but my I-pad won’t let me.
But I read an article from Dan Kreft who said that the distant starlight problem also goes for old earthers, too, due to cosmological inflation.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

FaithT

Well-Known Member
Dec 1, 2019
2,349
646
Midwest
✟153,209.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I get what you mean. I'm Lutheran in a general way, not really fixed into one type (I see myself as belonging in any Lutheran church, regardless of label), but would not want to break the SOP rules about any doctrine particular to the LCMS. The Catholic church you mentioned considers it optional to believe either way about something like the age of Earth? .
Yep
 
Upvote 0

Daniel9v9

Christian Forums Staff
Chaplain
Supporter
Jun 5, 2016
1,928
1,714
38
London
Visit site
✟394,138.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
This, below, talks about how God creating starlight fully mature doesn’t work. I was satisfied with that answer until I read more on the subject.


<<<<<<<Some Christians have proposed that God created the beams of light from distant stars already on their way to the earth. After all, Adam didn’t need any time to grow from a baby because he was made as an adult. Likewise, it is argued that the universe was made mature, and so perhaps the light was created in-transit. Of course, the universe was indeed made to function right from the first week, and many aspects of it were indeed created “mature.” The only problem with assuming that the light was created in-transit is that we see things happen in space. For example, we see stars change brightness and move. Sometimes we see stars explode. We see these things because their light has reached us.

But if God created the light beams already on their way, then that means none of the events we see in space (beyond a distance of 6,000 light-years) actually happened. It would mean that those exploding stars never exploded or existed; God merely painted pictures of these fictional events. It seems uncharacteristic of God to make illusions like this. God made our eyes to accurately probe the real universe; so we can trust that the events that we see in space really happened. For this reason, most creation scientists believe that light created in-transit is not the best way to respond to the distant starlight argument. Let me suggest that the answer to distant starlight lies in some of the unstated assumptions that secular astronomers make.>>>>>>>

@Daniel9v9

While I'm not sure I have time for another round of this, I can offer this:

(1) I've never heard of anyone being thrown out of the LCMS for believing in an old earth. Nor would do I think it's wise to abandon the sound doctrine that you get in a Lutheran Church over an issue like this.

(2) The argument you quoted above is not new and it's confused and flawed. I can demonstrate how it's flawed by simply applying the same logic to any divine miracles that God exercises.

For example, consider when our Lord fed 5,000 people by multiplying five loaves and two fish (Matthew 14:13-21). The bread was not multiplied through the means of slow development from seed, to wheat, to dough, to bread. Nor the fish from parents, to egg, to small fish, to adult fish. No, they were fully formed bread and fully formed fish. In the same way that we would expect a fish to have been an egg at some point, or a bread to have been wheat, should we then on that basis reject the miracle that God exercises because it "seems uncharacteristic of God to make illusions like this"? No. That's not a real argument for that is not uncharacteristic of God who is the almighty creator and sustainer of the universe, and who freely exercises His authority over it.

Very simply, with any miracles, it's sufficient to ask the following: Does God have the power to do it? Did He say that He has done it? If yes, then we can be confident that He did it.
 
Upvote 0

FaithT

Well-Known Member
Dec 1, 2019
2,349
646
Midwest
✟153,209.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
While I'm not sure I have time for another round of this, I can offer this:

(1) I've never heard of anyone being thrown out of the LCMS for believing in an old earth. Nor would do I think it's wise to abandon the sound doctrine that you get in a Lutheran Church over an issue like this.

(2) The argument you quoted above is not new and it's confused and flawed. I can demonstrate how it's flawed by simply applying the same logic to any divine miracles that God exercises.

For example, consider when our Lord fed 5,000 people by multiplying five loaves and two fish (Matthew 14:13-21). The bread was not multiplied through the means of slow development from seed, to wheat, to dough, to bread. Nor the fish from parents, to egg, to small fish, to adult fish. No, they were fully formed bread and fully formed fish. In the same way that we would expect a fish to have been an egg at some point, or a bread to have been wheat, should we then on that basis reject the miracle that God exercises because it "seems uncharacteristic of God to make illusions like this"? No. That's not a real argument for that is not uncharacteristic of God who is the almighty creator and sustainer of the universe, and who freely exercises His authority over it.

Very simply, with any miracles, it's sufficient to ask the following: Does God have the power to do it? Did He say that He has done it? If yes, then we can be confident that He did it.
Thanks! Are you near any Olympic venues?
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Daniel9v9

Christian Forums Staff
Chaplain
Supporter
Jun 5, 2016
1,928
1,714
38
London
Visit site
✟394,138.00
Country
United Kingdom
Faith
Lutheran
Marital Status
Married
Thanks! Are you near any Olympic venues?

No problem!

Ah, no, I'm not too near to the Olympics venues. We live in Osaka, and the Olympics are being held in Tokyo. At the moment there's a peculiar situation of both having the Olympics and also a state of emergency, given the increase in Covid numbers! We've also locked down here in Osaka, so we're just checking the scores a bit on our phones. Strange times!

Do you watch the Olympics? America's doing well, as usual!
 
Upvote 0

FaithT

Well-Known Member
Dec 1, 2019
2,349
646
Midwest
✟153,209.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
No problem!

Ah, no, I'm not too near to the Olympics venues. We live in Osaka, and the Olympics are being held in Tokyo. At the moment there's a peculiar situation of both having the Olympics and also a state of emergency, given the increase in Covid numbers! We've also locked down here in Osaka, so we're just checking the scores a bit on our phones. Strange times!

Do you watch the Olympics? America's doing well, as usual!
Yeah, I watch some events. Swimming and women’s gymnastics, mostly.
You all stay healthy!
 
  • Friendly
Reactions: Daniel9v9
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums