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Question For LCMS

Discussion in 'LCMS / WELS / ELS / LCC' started by Hope1960, Jul 30, 2021.

  1. Hope1960

    Hope1960 Well-Known Member

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    One thing as a relatively new Lutheran (LCMS) I’ve been struggling with is the distant starlight problem. For a Catholic, which I used to be, this isn’t a problem at all because Catholicism is open to an old earth, billions of years old.
    How do you, from the LCMS, explain starlight that is billions of light years away, can be seen on earth; an earth that is supposedly 6000 years old?

    Daniel9v9 and I have discussed this before, I started a thread here about it too, but I’d like to discuss it again.
    Sometimes I think it would be easier to just return to the Catholic Church.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2021
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  2. tampasteve

    tampasteve ✞ Christian ✞ Staff Member Administrator CF Senior Ambassador Angels Team Supporter

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    I'm not sure that there is a really LCMS answer. One that I have heard is that "God created it to look that way", which I suppose is one way to look at it.
     
  3. Hope1960

    Hope1960 Well-Known Member

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    This, below, talks about how God creating starlight fully mature doesn’t work. I was satisfied with that answer until I read more on the subject.


    <<<<<<<Some Christians have proposed that God created the beams of light from distant stars already on their way to the earth. After all, Adam didn’t need any time to grow from a baby because he was made as an adult. Likewise, it is argued that the universe was made mature, and so perhaps the light was created in-transit. Of course, the universe was indeed made to function right from the first week, and many aspects of it were indeed created “mature.” The only problem with assuming that the light was created in-transit is that we see things happen in space. For example, we see stars change brightness and move. Sometimes we see stars explode. We see these things because their light has reached us.

    But if God created the light beams already on their way, then that means none of the events we see in space (beyond a distance of 6,000 light-years) actually happened. It would mean that those exploding stars never exploded or existed; God merely painted pictures of these fictional events. It seems uncharacteristic of God to make illusions like this. God made our eyes to accurately probe the real universe; so we can trust that the events that we see in space really happened. For this reason, most creation scientists believe that light created in-transit is not the best way to respond to the distant starlight argument. Let me suggest that the answer to distant starlight lies in some of the unstated assumptions that secular astronomers make.>>>>>>>

    @Daniel9v9
     
  4. tampasteve

    tampasteve ✞ Christian ✞ Staff Member Administrator CF Senior Ambassador Angels Team Supporter

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    I would not buy into the idea that he just made light and the events/bodies that cause the light are/were fictional or that they are an illusion.

    I would say that He made the events that all caused it and the light all made in transit. Basically, God made everything as if it all started billions of years ago, all fully formed and functional.

    I don't personally believe that, but I think that is what you have to look at as one possibility if you believe in the Young Earth and are trying to reconcile the old light problem.
     
  5. Hope1960

    Hope1960 Well-Known Member

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    AIG explains why this won’t work but I can’t post the link to it.
     
  6. Halbhh

    Halbhh Everything You say is Life to me Supporter

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    Well, as I see it, whether it would not make sense in terms of physics isn't even the issue, as God could do anything, being God, by definition the creator of this physics, and still having whatever ability/tools He used, and able to change or manipulate it will, and do the impossible. In other words, it would not matter if it seems physically to make sense with known physics.

    But to me, compared to that viewpoint of light and other phenomena made to appear as if old, we'd need to ask whether God is subject to time itself. (of course, then we'd all agree He is not controlled by time, not subject to it)

    What is a billion or 9 billions years to God? Perhaps any span of time in this Universe would be no different perhaps than 1 second or an hour, or any other time span, for Him.
     
  7. Hope1960

    Hope1960 Well-Known Member

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    I just feel like I’m grasping at straws to make the LCMS teaching fit with science. My pastor knows I believe in an old earth and the other day I said I was on the fence about it but I’m back to the old earth belief.
     
  8. Hope1960

    Hope1960 Well-Known Member

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    But what about supernovas? If God made starlight mature then what we see now wouldn’t be real. Or something. I’m trying to loosely quote what I read but am not doing a very good job of it.
     
  9. .Jeremiah.

    .Jeremiah. Active Member

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    i wonder, what if the age of the earth is not important?


    is it possible that we sometimes try too hard to get the answers, usually in our own minds, with the confirmation of others?


    i am speaking from my own past


    i had great consternation studying Genesis 1 through 3.


    but I was very DETERMINED to figure it all out. and figure it out as soon as possible.


    being a type A personality, I always strove to find all my answers on my own, asap


    I would think out all the difficult and conflicting verses, and attempt to put it all together in a lovely mental package, supported by commentators and others. over and over again.


    but it never really seemed to work out, in a cohesive way, and make sense


    after much despair, I gave up, and shortly afterwards the Lord in his infinite graciousness opened my eyes so that I could understand it better. much better.


    i am sure that what I now see is nothing compared to what I will someday see, but at least it makes sense now.

    there is a key to getting from point A to point B, but I’m not bright enough to figure out what it is, even though I have my suspicions


    Thank you Lord
     
  10. Halbhh

    Halbhh Everything You say is Life to me Supporter

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    I get what you mean. I'm Lutheran in a general way, not really fixed into one type (I see myself as belonging in any Lutheran church, regardless of label), but would not want to break the SOP rules about any doctrine particular to the LCMS. The Catholic church you mentioned considers it optional to believe either way about something like the age of Earth? I wonder if in practice a LCMS church is really different (I'm asking), whether they have diversity of views (like all churches I've attended). I've noticed over and over that when I talk to people in a congregation, they have diverse views, and agree with some things and not others.
     
  11. Hope1960

    Hope1960 Well-Known Member

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    I keep trying to c&p things to show you, but my I-pad won’t let me.
    But I read an article from Dan Kreft who said that the distant starlight problem also goes for old earthers, too, due to cosmological inflation.
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2021
  12. Hope1960

    Hope1960 Well-Known Member

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    Sorry but every time I try to c&p something it says Question for LCMS
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2021
  13. Hope1960

    Hope1960 Well-Known Member

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    Yep
     
  14. Daniel9v9

    Daniel9v9

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    While I'm not sure I have time for another round of this, I can offer this:

    (1) I've never heard of anyone being thrown out of the LCMS for believing in an old earth. Nor would do I think it's wise to abandon the sound doctrine that you get in a Lutheran Church over an issue like this.

    (2) The argument you quoted above is not new and it's confused and flawed. I can demonstrate how it's flawed by simply applying the same logic to any divine miracles that God exercises.

    For example, consider when our Lord fed 5,000 people by multiplying five loaves and two fish (Matthew 14:13-21). The bread was not multiplied through the means of slow development from seed, to wheat, to dough, to bread. Nor the fish from parents, to egg, to small fish, to adult fish. No, they were fully formed bread and fully formed fish. In the same way that we would expect a fish to have been an egg at some point, or a bread to have been wheat, should we then on that basis reject the miracle that God exercises because it "seems uncharacteristic of God to make illusions like this"? No. That's not a real argument for that is not uncharacteristic of God who is the almighty creator and sustainer of the universe, and who freely exercises His authority over it.

    Very simply, with any miracles, it's sufficient to ask the following: Does God have the power to do it? Did He say that He has done it? If yes, then we can be confident that He did it.
     
  15. Hope1960

    Hope1960 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks! Are you near any Olympic venues?
     
  16. Daniel9v9

    Daniel9v9

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    No problem!

    Ah, no, I'm not too near to the Olympics venues. We live in Osaka, and the Olympics are being held in Tokyo. At the moment there's a peculiar situation of both having the Olympics and also a state of emergency, given the increase in Covid numbers! We've also locked down here in Osaka, so we're just checking the scores a bit on our phones. Strange times!

    Do you watch the Olympics? America's doing well, as usual!
     
  17. Hope1960

    Hope1960 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, I watch some events. Swimming and women’s gymnastics, mostly.
    You all stay healthy!
     
  18. Daniel9v9

    Daniel9v9

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    Oh, nice! Cheers, you too! God bless +
     
  19. Hope1960

    Hope1960 Well-Known Member

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