CDC updates guidance, recommends vaccinated people wear masks indoors in certain areas

[ThatRobGuy]

It's not a choice for someone who's being treated for cancer or for an autoimmune disease or has a compromised immune system for other reasons. If you're fully vaccinated, you can very definitely become infected anyway, and with the delta variant there is a good chance you will have a high viral load and be infectious and give it to one of those people.

...but the same was true with influenza. Immunosuppressed folks were always at higher risks from that as they either couldn't be vaccinated, or would have a week immunoresponse to a flu vaccine even if they did get it.

Immunosuppressed have always existed...is your suggestion that everyone should've always been masking up the whole time?

There are some societies that do that, but not in Western cultures that I'm aware of.

 

[FireDragon76]

Maybe you're right, but I have my doubts...

For people who have shown so much distrust in scientific institutions like the FDA, I'm skeptical that an organization, that they think is "in on the conspiracy", giving the vaccine a higher level of approval is going to suddenly change their minds.

That's understandable. I just think there's a good chance that as time goes on, the enthusiasm behind vaccine hesitancy is going to wane. Especially as we get distance from Trump's divisive politics and open pandering to pseudoscience (which make take time, we may be fighting this thing for another year or two).

 

[ThatRobGuy]

That's understandable. I just think there's a good chance that as time goes on, the energy is going to wane. Especially as we get distance from Trump's divisive politics and open pandering to pseudoscience (which make take time, we may be fighting this thing for another year or two).

I think we're definitely fighting it for at least a year or two.

Despite the GOP's best efforts to do damage control on the topic of vaccines (GOP governors have been getting booed during appearances for promoting the vaccine), it's sort of like the theme of those monster movies, where the mad scientists can't contain the monster they created.

GOP Governor gets booed for telling truth about vaccine - CNN Video

 

[FireDragon76]

I think we're definitely fighting it for at least a year or two.

Despite the GOP's best efforts to do damage control on the topic of vaccines (GOP governors have been getting booed during appearances for promoting the vaccine), it's sort of like the theme of those monster movies, where the mad scientists can't contain the monster they created.

GOP Governor gets booed for telling truth about vaccine - CNN Video

It's definitely a monster of their own creation. They responded to the perceived threat posed by Obama and Hillary by playing up the notion that the whole system was corrupt and run by elites that could never be trusted, and they've played that up ever since. Trump (who was actually not the choice of the GOP establishment initially) and QAnon are just the chickens coming home to roost, figuratively speaking.... their base started believing the most lurid rhetoric as absolute reality . The whole alt-right ecosystem is cross fertilized by symbolic manipulation and magical thinking in general (unapologetically so, in fact... Steve Bannon's major influences come from the occult more than they do the Enlightenment or even Paleoconservativism). And that plays out in all sorts of ways, including vaccine hesitancy and medical denialism.

 

[Aldebaran]

First: Influenza is still out there. Now that mask-wearing is a "thing," we might as well avoid influenza in situations that we're breathing the exhalations of a crowd of people.

Second: The current vaccines are judged about 85% effective against the Delta variant. Whether you wear a mask or not depends on how 85% effectiveness rates in your own mind.

Third: This is not particularly a consideration for me, but there is a 15% change a vaccinated person could be carrying the Delta variant, which would be dangerous for the unvaccinated people he's around. As I said, this isn't something I'm concerned about, inasmuch as they've had a chance to get their vaccination.

We were always told that a mask doesn't protect the wearer, which is why it was advised that infected people, and unvaccinated people were to wear masks. Now having even the vaccinated wear them is advising people to ignore the science and listen to fear.

 

[FireDragon76]

We were always told that a mask doesn't protect the wearer, which is why it was advised that infected people, and unvaccinated people were to wear masks. Now having even the vaccinated wear them is advising people to ignore the science and listen to fear.

It's not ignoring science. Vaccinated people can become infected and carry COVID-19, esp. the Delta variant.

Masks also can protect the wearer. But the protection to the wearer is much less than the protection it offers against spreading the infection to others.

 

[hedrick]

Remember, not all hesitant people are influenced by right wing and communist propaganda. A substantial number are minorities and others outside the mainstream who have other reasons for not trusting the establishment. There are also still people who are afraid that the vaccine will have a reaction that makes them miss work, and they’re so near the edge they’re not willing to take that risk.

 

[Aldebaran]

That's understandable. I just think there's a good chance that as time goes on, the enthusiasm behind vaccine hesitancy is going to wane. Especially as we get distance from Trump's divisive politics and open pandering to pseudoscience (which make take time, we may be fighting this thing for another year or two).

Pseudoscience is mandating people to wear masks even after people submitted to the mandates to get the shots, even after telling us that masks are for the protection of others, and not the wearer.

 

[FireDragon76]

Pseudoscience is mandating people to wear masks even after people submitted to the mandates to get the shots, even after telling us that masks are for the protection of others, and not the wearer.

At best, that is questionable messaging and policy, not pseudoscience. Pseudoscience is saying stupid stuff like "masks don't work", "it will be gone by Easter" or "it's no worse than the flu".

 

[Aldebaran]

It's not ignoring science. Vaccinated people can become infected and carry COVID-19, esp. the Delta variant.

Then there goes the claim that the vaccine is "safe and effective" and our best chance to get back to normal.
Aldrich: Vaccines best chance to return to normal, side-effects are extremely rare | London Free Press

 

[Aldebaran]

At best, that is questionable messaging and policy, not pseudoscience. Pseudoscience is saying stupid stuff like "masks don't work", "it will be gone by Easter" or "it's no worse than the flu".

Dictionary defines it differently: "a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method."
It has nothing to do with saying stuff.

 

[FireDragon76]

Then there goes the claim that the vaccine is "safe and effective" and our best chance to get back to normal.
Aldrich: Vaccines best chance to return to normal, side-effects are extremely rare | London Free Press

The vaccines are effective at preventing severe disease and death against all variants. They are only somewhat effective at preventing infections of the new Delta variant. That doesn't mean characterizing them as "ineffective" is accurate, however. They protect against some consequences of the pandemic, but not others.

You're quoting articles that are old and outdated in the face of a virus that is mutating.

 

[FireDragon76]

Dictionary defines it differently: "a collection of beliefs or practices mistakenly regarded as being based on scientific method."
It has nothing to do with saying stuff.

It represented good science at the time.

Do you not understand that viruses evolve? COVID-19 in the US is 83 percent Delta variant, which is genetically distinct from the Alpha variant a year ago, having adaptations that help it evade the immune system.

 

[Aldebaran]

The vaccines are effective at preventing severe disease and death against all variants. They are only somewhat effective at preventing infections of the new Delta variant. That doesn't mean characterizing them as "ineffective" is accurate, however. They protect against some consequences of the pandemic, but not others.

How can they be "effective at preventing severe disease and death against all variants" if they aren't even effective against the Delta variant? And if they're so effective, then why do vaccinated people still need masks?

You're quoting articles that are old and outdated in the face of a virus that is mutating.

The only thing that's mutating is the definition of "science", and it mutates on a political basis.

 

[FireDragon76]

How can they be "effective at preventing severe disease and death against all variants" if they aren't even effective against the Delta variant? And if they're so effective, then why do vaccinated people still need masks?

There is a distinction between getting infected, and getting a severe illness or hospitalization. The vaccines are effective at preventing severe illness or hospitalization due to the Delta variant. They only reduce the chance of infection by about half, several months after being vaccinated. Against the Alpha variant, they are much more effective at preventing infection. But the Alpha variant accounts for very few cases now days in the US.

It is not uncommon for vaccines to prevent severe illness, but not infection. This happens all the time with influenza vaccines.

The only thing that's mutating is the definition of "science", and it mutates on a political basis.

Not true.

 

[Aldebaran]

It represented good science at the time.

Do you not understand that viruses evolve? COVID-19 in the US is 83 percent Delta variant, which is genetically distinct from the Alpha variant a year ago, having adaptations that help it evade the immune system.

The Delta variant came from India, which leads to my next point. Variants supposedly come from a virus having to evolve in response to resistance. Since it came from India at at time when almost nobody in India was vaccinated, which was in December of 2020, then it will continue spawning variants no matter what: vaccinations in india - Google Search

5 Things To Know About the Delta Variant

 

[Aldebaran]

There is a distinction between getting infected, and getting a severe illness or hospitalization. The vaccines are effective at preventing severe illness or hospitalization due to the Delta variant. They only reduce the chance of infection by about half, several months after being vaccinated. Against the Alpha variant, they are much more effective at preventing infection. But the Alpha variant accounts for very few cases now days in the US.

It is not uncommon for vaccines to prevent severe illness, but not infection. This happens all the time with influenza vaccines.

How common is it for people to get Mumps, Rubella, Measles, Smallpox after being vaccinated against them?

 

[FireDragon76]

The Delta variant came from India, which leads to my next point. Variants supposedly come from a virus having to evolve in response to resistance.

Since it came from India at at time when almost nobody in India was vaccinated, which was in December of 2020, then it will continue spawning variants no matter what: vaccinations in india - Google Search

5 Things To Know About the Delta Variant

Reducing new infections will reduce the number of mutant viruses that reproduce. Without new mutations spreading, there won't be new variants.

It's not a coincidence that variants are emerging in countries that have governments that deny or downplay the pandemic and also have low vaccination rates. More infections means more mutant viruses are surviving to reproduce.

 

[Aldebaran]

Reducing new infections will reduce the number of mutant viruses that reproduce. Without new mutations spreading, there won't be new variants.

It's not a coincidence that variants are emerging in countries that have governments that deny or downplay the pandemic and also have low vaccination rates. More infections means more mutant viruses are surviving to reproduce.

The only thing they've denied in India is their part in spawning the variant, hence the new name "Delta", which mainstream media has gladly embraced.

 

[whatbogsends]

First: Influenza is still out there. Now that mask-wearing is a "thing," we might as well avoid influenza in situations that we're breathing the exhalations of a crowd of people.

Second: The current vaccines are judged about 85% effective against the Delta variant. Whether you wear a mask or not depends on how 85% effectiveness rates in your own mind.

Third: This is not particularly a consideration for me, but there is a 15% change a vaccinated person could be carrying the Delta variant, which would be dangerous for the unvaccinated people he's around. As I said, this isn't something I'm concerned about, inasmuch as they've had a chance to get their vaccination.

That 85% figure is certainly not etched in stone.

A full course of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine is 64% effective at preventing infection and 64% at preventing symptomatic Covid-19 caused by the Delta variant, according to preliminary findings from a study by Israel’s health ministry.

The findings conflict with a number of other studies assessing the vaccine’s performance against the variant, which indicate a much higher degree of protection against infection and mild illness (between 80% and 90%).

How Well Does The Pfizer Vaccine Protect Against The Delta Variant? Here’s What We Know (forbes.com)

While the vaccines absolutely offer protection against delta, they are by no means a guarantee to not get a serious infection.

While i'm aware that many view people like me (unvaccinated) as a public menace, i haven't set foot inside a public area without masking since March 2020 (and i don't go publicly indoors for any prolonged period of time). Just because i don't trust the vaccines doesn't mean i don't take the virus seriously.