Creationists: Explain your understanding of microevolution and macroevolution

[samuel hart]

Ge 9:2 And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth [upon] the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered.

 

[samuel hart]

Ge 9:2 And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth [upon] the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered.

When Adam and Eve took the Apple , they developed Testosterone in their systems and became like the Animals instead of becoming like the Angels. That is why God told them to go forth and Multiply.

 

[Ophiolite]

When Adam and Eve took the Apple , they developed Testosterone in their systems and became like the Animals instead of becoming like the Angels. That is why God told them to go forth and Multiply.

I don't see the connection between that and the request made in the Opening Post. Is there one?

 

[Job 33:6]

When Adam and Eve took the Apple , they developed Testosterone in their systems and became like the Animals instead of becoming like the Angels. That is why God told them to go forth and Multiply.

Haha, what were there steroids in the apple? This is a new one.

 

[Bungle_Bear]

When Adam and Eve took the Apple , they developed Testosterone in their systems and became like the Animals instead of becoming like the Angels. That is why God told them to go forth and Multiply.

Genesis 9 is Noah, not Adam

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

I was raised atheist...

Reading this, I get a picture of an old guy on a porch swing, saying, "Yes sir, I was raised atheist, in a non-God fearing home, indeed I was. I remember my momma used to wag her finger at me and say, "Thomas, you be a good atheist now, and don't go believin' in any o'them there gods, y'hear?" "Yes, mamma.". Heh, heh, and mealtimes, we'd not bow our heads and not say grace over the food; not thanking the Lord for his bounty... And then, once a week on a Sunday morning, we'd get up early and not dress smart, and then we wouldn't go to church to not listen to the sermon and not sing hymns... it wasn't fundamentalist atheism, but it was pretty strict, I can tell ya!"

 

[Job 33:6]

how about just a short necked Giraffe (which was an ancestor)? that would be a good place to start- I'm sure that's not hard to find

Hm, a short necked giraffe:
Fossils of ancient giraffes discovered in Spain show some unexpected features

 

[Job 33:6]

Hm, a short necked giraffe:
Fossils of ancient giraffes discovered in Spain show some unexpected features

Oh, here's another.

Samotherium - Wikipedia

Oh wow, this is a genus of 5 different short necked species of prehistoric giraffe.

 

[tas8831]

Hm, a short necked giraffe:
Fossils of ancient giraffes discovered in Spain show some unexpected features

Imagine that, science learning new stuff.

 

[tas8831]

Oh, here's another.

Samotherium - Wikipedia

Oh wow, this is a genus of 5 different short necked species of prehistoric giraffe.

It is almost as if one can find things out when they actually try! Nice finds!

 

[tas8831]

Reading this, I get a picture of an old guy on a porch swing, saying, "Yes sir, I was raised atheist, in a non-God fearing home, indeed I was. I remember my momma used to wag her finger at me and say, "Thomas, you be a good atheist now, and don't go believin' in any o'them there gods, y'hear?" "Yes, mamma.". Heh, heh, and mealtimes, we'd not bow our heads and not say grace over the food; not thanking the Lord for his bounty... And then, once a week on a Sunday morning, we'd get up early and not dress smart, and then we wouldn't go to church to not listen to the sermon and not sing hymns... it wasn't fundamentalist atheism, but it was pretty strict, I can tell ya!"

Personally, I never buy these sorts of stories. I have known a few people who have made such claims personally, and over time, I discovered that their claims were basically 'witnessing.' And this goes for some of the 'professional' types - the one that comes to mind (that I can remember by name) is Steve Austin, YEC geologist, who claimed to have been an old earth evolutionist (and therefore, atheist) until after the Mt. St. Helens eruption, where he did some research and suddenly became a biblically literalist YEC. Seems too good to be true? That's because it isn't. He was 'outed' (by YEC Walt Brown) for writing YEC articles for at least 4 years prior to the eruption under the pseudonym Stuart Nevins (clever!).

 

[tas8831]

It's not that we don't know how hierarchical digital information systems can be originated

You mean the man-made ones that people make? Are you saying that the "information" in DNA is man-made?

We just have no idea how they could be achieved by chance through natural mechanisms

Who is "we"?

 

[Job 33:6]

Again I was raised atheist and remained so for about 30 years, I understand the intellectual gratification of reducing reality to a handful of immutable laws- as was held for physics for so long

the 'wishful thinking' argument cuts both ways- I'm interested in what actually happened- whatever the implications



how about just a short necked Giraffe (which was an ancestor)? that would be a good place to start- I'm sure that's not hard to find



Which is more supernatural, a rabbit spontaneously appearing in a hat for no particular reason?
Or simply being put there by a 'magic man'?

Though I think we have some room for common ground, there are other alternatives

I was raised without religion as well, though now I am an avid church goer and happy to be so.

But I think that there is a difference here in the topic of evolution and the topic of something along the lines of the anthropic principal.

The question of if there are long neck giraffes is a bit different from the question of why any giraffe even exists to begin with rather than the universe being some mottled or incoherent, non-sentient jumble of matter.

I have to say, I'd go with the atheists here in the topic on the theory of evolution, but as far as I can tell, there doesn't appear to be an answer from atheists for why the universe has the apparent order that it does that hosts life. And to be fair, theists have beliefs, but it's not like we were alive in the beginning to "know" these deep questions either beyond faith based ideas. For atheists though, as noted, the rabbit appears in the hat without any particular reason or rhyme nor even a purpose.

Atheism doesn't really have a clear philosophy on life. Something to collectively motivates people in life through ups and downs, together as a "church". It doesn't have a philosophy that makes efforts for cohesion of people.

@tas8831 what do you think of this?

 

[SelfSim]

Atheism doesn't really have a clear philosophy on life. Something to collectively motivates people in life through ups and downs, together as a "church". It doesn't have a philosophy that makes efforts for cohesion of people.

The philosophy of Humanism is fairly well distinguished though. (See here).

 

[Job 33:6]

The philosophy of Humanism is fairly well distinguished though. (See here).

Though Christians can be humanists too and atheists aren't necessarily humanist.

Maybe humanism should make efforts to grow into a church.

But I just don't know if humanism (without religion) could accomplish the goals, or cover the ground that christian church's have.

In a church for example, I might see Joe Smith and his family donate to a missionary project that, say, builds a school for children in Ghana (I use the country Ghana just because a lot of missionary projects unfold them African countries that don't have funds for schools).

What would this look like for a church of humanism? What would it take for humanists to grow and to conduct such activities on a large scale as established religions do?

I think I would wonder what would effectively band humanists together to accomplish large scale tasks. Religions historically have influenced literally armies and governments. Can humanism do the same?

And, I wonder if religion has already essentially claimed humanism. If we read through Corinthians, Ephesians and Romans for example, the language is...it's about as humanistic as it gets.

Hm.

 

[Job 33:6]

Though Christians can be humanists too and atheists aren't necessarily humanist.

Maybe humanism should make efforts to grow into a church.

But I just don't know if humanism (without religion) could accomplish the goals, or cover the ground that christian church's have.

In a church for example, I might see Joe Smith and his family donate to a missionary project that, say, builds a school for children in Ghana (I use the country Ghana just because a lot of missionary projects unfold them African countries that don't have funds for schools).

What would this look like for a church of humanism? What would it take for humanists to grow and to conduct such activities on a large scale as established religions do?

I think I would wonder what would effectively band humanists together to accomplish large scale tasks. Religions historically have influenced literally armies and governments. Can humanism do the same?

And, I wonder if religion has already essentially claimed humanism. If we read through Corinthians, Ephesians and Romans for example, the language is...it's about as humanistic as it gets.

Hm.

Sometimes I think that I've been fortunate to find a church that reflects some of my core values and so it's easy for me to become a part of.

But for people who are not religious or part of a church, it's tough because the opportunities that churches offer aren't always readily available outside of the church. And people who aren't theists May not want to sign their life away in order to be a part of these opportunities.

Thinks on*

 

[SelfSim]

Though Christians can be humanists too and atheists aren't necessarily humanist.

I agree that atheists don't have to declare themselves as Humanists.
I'm having a hard time seeing Christians declaring themselves as Humanists though(?)

Maybe humanism should make efforts to grow into a church.

But I just don't know if humanism (without religion) could accomplish the goals, or cover the ground that christian church's have.

For what its worth, my meaning of 'Humanism' is simply the conclusion science leaves behind after looking at objective evidence. There is no belief in my version of Humanism and thus, it is most certainly not a religious belief for me.

(I was basically forced into having to fill in a religious belief on the registration form for Christian Forums, so the label underneath my username/avatar is not a religious designation as far as I'm concerned).

As a result, I am not interested in the slightest in advocating Humanism as a religion .. (quite the opposite actually .. its just science).

 

[SelfSim]

Sometimes I think that I've been fortunate to find a church that reflects some of my core values and so it's easy for me to become a part of.

But for people who are not religious or part of a church, it's tough because the opportunities that churches offer aren't always readily available outside of the church. And people who aren't theists May not want to sign their life away in order to be a part of these opportunities.

Thinks on*

Its easy to declare oneself as being human though .. no churches required to do that .. (maybe just a glimpse in a mirror gives sufficient reason there )?
And 'the club' of humans is enormous and achieves awesome things!

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Personally, I never buy these sorts of stories. I have known a few people who have made such claims personally, and over time, I discovered that their claims were basically 'witnessing.' And this goes for some of the 'professional' types - the one that comes to mind (that I can remember by name) is Steve Austin, YEC geologist, who claimed to have been an old earth evolutionist (and therefore, atheist) until after the Mt. St. Helens eruption, where he did some research and suddenly became a biblically literalist YEC. Seems too good to be true? That's because it isn't. He was 'outed' (by YEC Walt Brown) for writing YEC articles for at least 4 years prior to the eruption under the pseudonym Stuart Nevins (clever!).

Quite; I thought I'd make the point satirically

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

... as I can tell, there doesn't appear to be an answer from atheists for why the universe has the apparent order that it does that hosts life.

I suspect most atheists would say, "We don't know!". Whatever your belief or lack of it, sooner or later you reach brute fact, e.g. "Why does God exist?"

Atheism doesn't really have a clear philosophy on life.

That's because atheism is just a lack of belief in a god or gods. I suspect most atheists have some kind of philosophy of life, but that's an individual decision.

Something to collectively motivates people in life through ups and downs, together as a "church". It doesn't have a philosophy that makes efforts for cohesion of people.

Atheists are members of clubs, societies, charities, all kinds of groups, depending on their interests and affiliations. Some atheists have tried a 'semi-religious' approach with all the social trimmings of religion, e.g. weekly 'church' meet-ups, but AIUI, it hasn't really caught on significantly.