bling

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That's kind of vaguely stated, isn't it? God is the cause of anything that is, as first cause, and according to plan. But you can't deny that the lost choose against God, no? So he is not THE cause of them being lost, since they choose it themselves, of their own will. What's more, you don't say whether they are lost forever, or just not yet saved.

So the premise is untenable. The fact that the lost of their own corrupt will choose to reject God does not render God, who planned it that way, to be unjust and unfair. Have not the lost, by their own will and choice, decided to take the consequences for their choices? They will be judged fairly.

We know the judge of all the earth will do what is right. He is precise and thorough.

What is unfair is what God does to those who do not deserve grace, instead of condemning them, he condemned Christ.
God was the “first cause” of our universe, but He is a “first causer” of lots of things that would not happen without God intervening over time making changes from what the “first cause” would have resulted in.

Man has a God given very limited autonomous free will that enable humans to making changes in the world from God’s to be a first cause of some very limited actions.

You say: “God, who planned it that way” is not the same as God allowed somethings to happen by humans free will choice.

You say: “…he (God) condemned Christ…” which means Christ was a sinner (???), since God would never unjustly condemn the righteous? What I see happening is, God allowing a willing Christ to be tortured, humiliated and murdered by an unruly wicked crowd, so we can be crucified with Christ as just/fair discipline for our sins.
 
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bling

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Molinism says he cannot?? I'm by no means a supporter of Molinism, but don't misrepresent them.
OK, I might not understand what I am reading so:
Is Molinism saying, some people are born with the right attitude, so God can and God does munipulate them to be saved and others are born with a bad attitude which keeps them from being saved and are beyond God's help?
Did God sellect and provide the new born's attitude?
This is not the same as saying: "God does and allows all He can to help everyone willing to accept His help of their own free will to fulfill thier earthly objective, but some of their own free will repeatedly refuse God's help to the point of never wanting God's help.
 
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Mark Quayle

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God was the “first cause” of our universe, but He is a “first causer” of lots of things that would not happen without God intervening over time making changes from what the “first cause” would have resulted in.

Man has a God given very limited autonomous free will that enable humans to making changes in the world from God’s to be a first cause of some very limited actions.

You say: “God, who planned it that way” is not the same as God allowed somethings to happen by humans free will choice.

You say: “…he (God) condemned Christ…” which means Christ was a sinner (???), since God would never unjustly condemn the righteous? What I see happening is, God allowing a willing Christ to be tortured, humiliated and murdered by an unruly wicked crowd, so we can be crucified with Christ as just/fair discipline for our sins.
Working my way up from your last paragraph: Only God can condemn. Was Christ not condemned? Did he not pay the debt for some?

"Free will"; can you prove free will, by either/ both Scripture and Reason? But please, give a cogent definition of free will, first. Don't say, "ability to choose" but actually mean quite a bit more than that. Even the dictionary (some of them, anyhow) allow that either the definition is not definite, or that their definition is a reference to the very imprecise thinking of those who use the term. Either way, the definition doesn't prove it a fact.

The mere fact of choice of humans is self-evident.

Above you say, 'autonomous' with no further definition. There are autonomous computer programs, which mean, from what little I understand, programs that run as programmed, but independent of other programs. I don't think that is what you mean. Do you mean actually independent of the chain of causation?

It is an interesting study, the nature of God as relates to causation. I'm guessing, by your remarks, that you haven't gone very far into studying the necessary attributes of first cause.
 
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Mark Quayle

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OK, I might not understand what I am reading so:
Is Molinism saying, some people are born with the right attitude, so God can and God does munipulate them to be saved and others are born with a bad attitude which keeps them from being saved and are beyond God's help?
Did God sellect and provide the new born's attitude?
This is not the same as saying: "God does and allows all He can to help everyone willing to accept His help of their own free will to fulfill thier earthly objective, but some of their own free will repeatedly refuse God's help to the point of never wanting God's help.

The OP taught me more than I knew about Molinism. I can't claim to understand Molinism, because to me they go somewhere with their thinking that is unnecessary, but from what I understand, they admit to, or at least, wish to admit to the absolute power and sovereignty of God.

Among the things I understand the OP to say, is that they agree with the Calvinistic notion of the total inability of man (on his own) to comply with God's demands —thus man is unable to even accept or have faith in Christ, because of man's corrupt will, until God regenerates his will (his heart, mind). If that regeneration is what you mean by 'manipulates' I suppose that is so, though I don't like the terminology as it suggests less than the full right of God to do as he pleases with all of us, as well as suggesting that perhaps that transformation of the will is a mere nudging of the motives.

So, no. I do not understand Molinism to agree that any man is in and of himself (what you call, "born with the right attitude") more worthy or otherwise capable of the receiving of God's grace in some way.

I would assume they also would chafe considerably at the notion that anyone is beyond God's help, or beyond saving. One's continued "bad attitude" is not what keeps God away —God can save whoever he chose to save— it is either God's timing or God's choice that keeps him from immediately regenerating any of us.

I'm not sure if your misunderstanding is of Molinism, or of God's choice. You seem to hold man to a status/ability quite of his own, apart from God's purposes. It that is so, then God had no reason to create at all. Romans 9 illustrates that from very creation God decides what each person will be used for, and fashions them according to that purpose, not that one is better than another, but that each one is made specifically for that purpose to which God intends.
 
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bling

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The OP taught me more than I knew about Molinism. I can't claim to understand Molinism, because to me they go somewhere with their thinking that is unnecessary, but from what I understand, they admit to, or at least, wish to admit to the absolute power and sovereignty of God.

Among the things I understand the OP to say, is that they agree with the Calvinistic notion of the total inability of man (on his own) to comply with God's demands —thus man is unable to even accept or have faith in Christ, because of man's corrupt will, until God regenerates his will (his heart, mind). If that regeneration is what you mean by 'manipulates' I suppose that is so, though I don't like the terminology as it suggests less than the full right of God to do as he pleases with all of us, as well as suggesting that perhaps that transformation of the will is a mere nudging of the motives.

So, no. I do not understand Molinism to agree that any man is in and of himself (what you call, "born with the right attitude") more worthy or otherwise capable of the receiving of God's grace in some way.

I would assume they also would chafe considerably at the notion that anyone is beyond God's help, or beyond saving. One's continued "bad attitude" is not what keeps God away —God can save whoever he chose to save— it is either God's timing or God's choice that keeps him from immediately regenerating any of us.

I'm not sure if your misunderstanding is of Molinism, or of God's choice. You seem to hold man to a status/ability quite of his own, apart from God's purposes. It that is so, then God had no reason to create at all. Romans 9 illustrates that from very creation God decides what each person will be used for, and fashions them according to that purpose, not that one is better than another, but that each one is made specifically for that purpose to which God intends.
We both need someone who really understands Molinism, because I did not get from the OP what you are saying.

As far as Romans 9 goes:

Paul uses two teaching methods throughout Romans even secular philosophy classes will use Romans as the best example of these methods. Paul does an excellent job of building one premise on the previous premises to develop his final conclusions. Paul uses an ancient form of rhetoric known as diatribe (imaginary debate) asking questions and most of the time giving a strong “By no means” and then goes on to explain “why not”. Paul’s method goes beyond just a general diatribe and follows closely to the diatribes used in the individual laments in the Psalms and throughout the Old Testament, which the Jewish Christians would have known extensively. These “questions or comments” are given by an “imaginary” student making it more a dialog with the readers (students) and not just a “sermon”.

The main topic repeated extensively in Romans is the division in the Christian house churches in Rome between the Jews and Gentile Christians. You can just look up how many times Jews and gentiles are referred to see this as a huge issue.

The main question (a diatribe question) in Romans 9 Paul addresses is God being fair or just Rms. 9: 14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!

This will take some explaining, since just prior in Romans 9, Paul went over some history of God’s dealings with the Israelites that sounds very “unjust” like “loving Jacob and hating Esau” before they were born, but remember in all of Paul’s diatribes he begins before, just after or before and just after with strong support for the wrong answer (this makes it more of a debate and giving the opposition the first shot as done in all diatribes).

Some “Christians” do not seem to understand How Paul uses diatribes and think since he just showed God being “unjust” and saying God is “not unjust” that God has a special God definition of “just”, making God “just” by His standard and appearing totally unjust by human standards. God is not a hypocrite and does not redefine what He told us to be true.

Who in Rome would be having a “problem” with God choosing to work with Isaac and Jacob instead of Ishmael and Esau? Would the Jewish Christian have a problem with this or would it be the Gentile Christians?

If God treaded you as privileged and special would you have a problem or would you have a problem if you were treated seemingly as common and others were treated with honor for no apparent reason?

This is the issue and Paul will explain over the rest of Romans 9-11.

Paul is specific with the issue Rms. 9: 19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”

The Jews were created in a special honorable position that would bring forth the Messiah and everyone else was common in comparison (the Gentiles).

How do we know Paul is specifically addressing the Jew/Gentile issue? Rms. 9: 30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.

Paul is showing from the position of being made “common” vessels by God the Gentiles had an advantage over the Israelites (vessels of honor) that had the Law, since the Law became a stumbling stone to them. They both needed faith to rely on God’s Love to forgive them.

Without going into the details of Romans 9-11 we conclude with this diatribe question: Romans 11: 11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!

The common vessels (gentiles) and the vessels of honor (Jews) are equal individually in what is really significant when it comes to salvation, so God is not being unjust or unfair with either group.

If there is still a question about who is being addressed in this section of Rms. 9-11, Paul tells us: Rms. 11: 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

Rm 9:22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?

This verse is not saying all the “vessels” created for a “common purpose” were created for destruction (they were not made from the start by the Potter “clay pigeons”). Everything that leaves the potter’s shop is of great quality. Those vessels for destruction can come from either the common group or the honor group, but God is being patient with them that will eventually be destroyed. The vessels God does develop great wrath against, will be readied for destruction, but how did they become worthy of destruction since they left the potter’s shop with his mark on them? Any vessel (honorable or common) that becomes damaged is not worthy of the potters signature and He would want it destroyed.

To understand this as Common vessels and special vessels look at the same idea using the same Greek words of Paul in 2 Tim 2: 20. There Paul even points out the common can become the honored vessel.

Just because Paul uses a Potter as being God in his analogy and Jerimiah uses a Potter as being God in his analogy, does not mean the analogies are conveying the exact same analogy. Jerimiah is talking about clay on the potter’s wheel being change while still being malleable clay (which fits the changing of Israel), but Paul is talking about two pots (vessels) so they cannot both be Israel, the clay is the same for both and the clay is not changing the outcome of the pot. The two pots (vessels) are completed and a person is asking “Why did you make me like this”, so it is about “how a person is made (born)” and not a nation.

Since Jerimiah talks only about one pot on the wheel changing and Paul is talking about two kinds of completed pots (vessels), who are the two different pots?


Paul is saying in 2 Tim 2: 21 even after leaving the shop the common vessels can cleanse themselves and thus become instruments for a special purpose. So, who is the common vessel and who is the special vessel in this analogy?

That is a short explanation, since you really need to study all of Romans especially chapters 9, 10 and 11. Also please look at individual laments in the Psalms and diatribes in general, I really cut those short.
 
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Rapture Bound

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"bling" replied, "Is God powerless to the point, He cannot create a world in which all go to heaven?"

Despite what many believe, there are some things that God cannot do (i.e., He cannot lie). Many Molinists (myself included) believe that it was not possible for God to create any world in which all would freely receive His offer of salvation. In any possible world that He could have selected from, there would always be some who will reject that offer (they are given free moral agency and are granted the ability to rebel, but are not free from the consequences...therefore they possess a limited free-will).

"How can God know for certain the choice we will make, yet state it as being contingent on our making a free will choice, since that is miss leading us into thinking we have a true free will choice in the matter and not something God has decided for us?"

God uses His "middle knowledge" to acquire that knowledge. His knowing of the future choices that any person will make does not cause or determine their actions in any way. Middle knowledge differs from simple foreknowledge in the sense that not only does God know what will happen, but also what would happen in any given set of circumstances. (that is the unique contribution of Molinism). God could not be truly Sovereign in the sense of being in full control and orchestrating His plan of salvation by the use of foreknowledge alone... middle knowledge must be utilized.

Concerning God's selection of the particular world that He chose to actualize :

"It is up to God whether I find myself in a world in which I am predestined ; but it is up to me whether I am predestined [to salvation] in the world in which I find myself."...... Acts 13:48,"Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."
God chooses which feasible world to actualize ; in every feasible world God gives sufficient grace to every person for salvation.

If you google in the title, "On Behalf of a Molinist Perspective - Gracepoint Church - San Francisco - by ReasonableFaith.Org - June 11,2020 - YouTube", you can view an excellent presentation of the principles provided by Molinism (such as the concept of "middle knowledge" and God's selection of "possible worlds" by use of His middle knowledge). <
>
 
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bling

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Working my way up from your last paragraph: Only God can condemn. Was Christ not condemned? Did he not pay the debt for some?

"Free will"; can you prove free will, by either/ both Scripture and Reason? But please, give a cogent definition of free will, first. Don't say, "ability to choose" but actually mean quite a bit more than that. Even the dictionary (some of them, anyhow) allow that either the definition is not definite, or that their definition is a reference to the very imprecise thinking of those who use the term. Either way, the definition doesn't prove it a fact.

The mere fact of choice of humans is self-evident.
This brings up the huge topic of atonement.

What God forgave 100% cannot also be paid for 100% or it would not be forgiveness.

Christ was not condemned (He did nothing wrong so it would be wrong to condemn Him.)

The “debt” was forgiven by God 100%, so we do not want to reduce what God did, by saying Jesus “paid” God off to forgive.


Above you say, 'autonomous' with no further definition. There are autonomous computer programs, which mean, from what little I understand, programs that run as programmed, but independent of other programs. I don't think that is what you mean. Do you mean actually independent of the chain of causation?

It is an interesting study, the nature of God as relates to causation. I'm guessing, by your remarks, that you haven't gone very far into studying the necessary attributes of first cause.
Will, free will and autonomous free will all mean the same thing to me, but some do not understand “will” to mean the individual choice was by his own will and he could have chosen to do otherwise without any change from an outside influence. To truly have “will/ free will/ autonomous free will” you have to be an original first cause of the decision you decided to make in your mind.

God’s nature is Love (unselfish, unconditional Love). Humans cannot really “do” something for God, but they can humbly accept God’s charity as charity and God is a giver.
 
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Mark Quayle

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This brings up the huge topic of atonement.

What God forgave 100% cannot also be paid for 100% or it would not be forgiveness.

Christ was not condemned (He did nothing wrong so it would be wrong to condemn Him.)

The “debt” was forgiven by God 100%, so we do not want to reduce what God did, by saying Jesus “paid” God off to forgive.

Huh? What God forgives 100% is for Christ's sake, as Christ paid the debt. Have you no concept of justice or sin?? Christ was not condemned??? Did he pay our debt of sin or not? Our sin was laid on him.

Do you not understand the Gospel?

Will, free will and autonomous free will all mean the same thing to me, but some do not understand “will” to mean the individual choice was by his own will and he could have chosen to do otherwise without any change from an outside influence. To truly have “will/ free will/ autonomous free will” you have to be an original first cause of the decision you decided to make in your mind.

God’s nature is Love (unselfish, unconditional Love). Humans cannot really “do” something for God, but they can humbly accept God’s charity as charity and God is a giver.
 
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Navair2

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"Can a genuine, blood-bought, regenerated believer forfeit their salvation?" Right here is where the unique contribution of Molinism is perhaps best demonstrated and utilized - via the Molinist model of perseverance.
No, and not to seem contentious, but I don't need Molinism ( a theology systematized in roughly 1593 by the Spanish Jesuit priest Luis de Molina ) to explain it for me.
Many Bible students have been frustrated to the point of giving up on their pursuit of arriving at a intellectually satisfying and scriptural based answer. Tragically, they have come to the point where they simply write it off as "mystery".
I've heard and seen that for many years now, since I first came to Christ in 1978.
The great distinction that those who hold to the Molinist model of perseverance (like myself) is seen in the fact that they do not deny that there are certain verses or portions of scripture (warning passages) that do in fact say that a regenerate believer can forfeit their salvation (such as 2 Peter 2:20).
The entire chapter of 2 Peter 2 is about false teachers, not born again believers in Jesus Christ.
 
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Navair2

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Tragically, many have either not been exposed to the principles of Molinism, or reject them because they have not studied them sufficiently ; and as in most things, the tendency is to reject the minority viewpoint.
I've looked at Molinism closely and I find that I disagree with it almost as much as I disagree with both Thomism and Wesleyan Arminianism.
This perspective clearly differs from the widely accepted position amongst those who believe a genuine believer will not ever lose that salvation that was gifted them at the point of their new birth. This camp claims that all of those warning passages are directed to those who are merely professing, but not possessing believers.
I agree with them, except that I do not see eternal life being gifted to someone at the new birth.
Rather, I see it as having been promised to them before the foundation of the world, when they were chosen in Christ ( Ephesians 1:4 ).

They then receive what was held in store for them because the Lord wants them to have it... not because anything they do or believe will grant them God's gifts.
 
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Navair2

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The Molinist view would make three basic claims.

(1) The two sets of texts are actually in two different logical categories, and therefore are not contradictory.
(2) God has actualized a possible world where all true born-again believers will freely persevere to the end, though it is possible for them to choose otherwise.
(3) God uses the warning passages, as just one of many means to keep true born-again believers from falling away.
Scriptures that should put this to rest:

1) Human reasoning, often called "logic", is not only a fickle thing from God's point of view, it is vain and corrupt as well.
It is to be completely disregarded in favor of whatever God says.
His word is truth...anything else that comes between His word and them should be cast aside in the life of the believer.

We as believers in Jesus Christ are to trust Him and His words implicitly, and not our own understanding ( Proverbs 3:5-7 ).

2) God has actualized a world where all born again believers ( not those who simply profess with the lips, but their hearts are far from Him ), whom Christ bought and paid for, cannot undo the work of God in their hearts and lives. They are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus ( Ephesians 2:1-10 ), and they have an inheritance that was prepared for them from the foundation of the world ( Matthew 25:34 ).
Christ shall lose none of the ones given to Him by His Father ( John 6:39 ), because they are the ones who were drawn, and He will absolutely raise them up at the last day ( John 6:44 ).
God is not willing that any of Christ's sheep perish, but that they all come to repentance ( 2 Peter 3:8-9 ).

3) God uses the warning passages to not only provoke godliness in His people, but to cause them to examine themselves whether they even be in the faith ( 2 Corinthians 13:1-10 ).
According to Matthew 13, there are two "types", or categories of believer...
"Tare" and "Wheat".

The "tare" ( which also includes false teachers ) cannot and does not bring forth true and God-pleasing fruit ( Galatians 5:22-23 ) because they are a bad tree ( Matthew 7:15-20 ).
Bad trees bring forth bad fruit ( Galatians 5:19-21 ) and will fall away under trials, tribulations and so forth, and who they really are will be revealed under these tests.

The "wheat" ( which includes God's ministers like Peter, Paul, etc. ) can and do bring forth true and God-pleasing fruit because they are good trees, which He planted ( Matthew 15:13, John 15:1-6 ). They will endure to the end because they are God's workmanship, and are sealed wih the Holy Spirit unto the day of their redemption ( Ephesians 1:13, Ephesians 4:30 ).

God Himself has promised to keep them by His power ( which far exceeds our power as men ), and not their own ( John 10:28-29, 1 Peter 1:5 ).
This is what makes the Spirit's "sealing" or indwelling, irrevocable...
God's immutable will and not our own.
 
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Navair2

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It would present an unsolvable dilemma: if a believer sealed with the Holy Spirit for eternity and declared forever perfect by God would then fall away completely a second time, how would God respond?
" For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 and have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 if they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."
( Hebrews 6:4-6 ).

God says it's impossible for true believers to fall away ( John 3:36, John 5:24, John 6:39-44, John 10:27-29, John 11:25-26 )...
And if they were to fall away, it would be impossible to renew them again to repentance, because that would necessitate Christ's being crucified for them all over again and put to an open shame.
 
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bling

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"bling" replied, "Is God powerless to the point, He cannot create a world in which all go to heaven?"

Despite what many believe, there are some things that God cannot do (i.e., He cannot lie). Many Molinists (myself included) believe that it was not possible for God to create any world in which all would freely receive His offer of salvation. In any possible world that He could have selected from, there would always be some who will reject that offer (they are given free moral agency and are granted the ability to rebel, but are not free from the consequences...therefore they possess a limited free-will).

"How can God know for certain the choice we will make, yet state it as being contingent on our making a free will choice, since that is miss leading us into thinking we have a true free will choice in the matter and not something God has decided for us?"

God uses His "middle knowledge" to acquire that knowledge. His knowing of the future choices that any person will make does not cause or determine their actions in any way. Middle knowledge differs from simple foreknowledge in the sense that not only does God know what will happen, but also what would happen in any given set of circumstances. (that is the unique contribution of Molinism). God could not be truly Sovereign in the sense of being in full control and orchestrating His plan of salvation by the use of foreknowledge alone... middle knowledge must be utilized.

Concerning God's selection of the particular world that He chose to actualize :

"It is up to God whether I find myself in a world in which I am predestined ; but it is up to me whether I am predestined [to salvation] in the world in which I find myself."...... Acts 13:48,"Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed."
God chooses which feasible world to actualize ; in every feasible world God gives sufficient grace to every person for salvation.

If you google in the title, "On Behalf of a Molinist Perspective - Gracepoint Church - San Francisco - by ReasonableFaith.Org - June 11,2020 - YouTube", you can view an excellent presentation of the principles provided by Molinism (such as the concept of "middle knowledge" and God's selection of "possible worlds" by use of His middle knowledge). <
>

I very much believe in limited free will, so we agree on that.

I also very much realize God cannot “do” everything, like God could not create a clone of a perfect Christ, since Christ is not a created being, so man was made very good (as good as a made being could be made) and not perfect like Christ. I will go on to say: “the main thing human’s lack from becoming perfect is what they are here on earth to obtain, since it cannot be made instinctive to humans.”

I also believe God has this “Middle Knowledge” and has it for humans from the beginning of time.

I also believe God has perfect foreknowledge from the beginning of human time.

What I totally disagree with William Lane Craig about is (I am using an example he gave) “God created specific people (Herod and Pilate) and circumstances that caused Christ to be crucified.”

William Lane Craig does not see: how things could work out to fulfill all God’s prophecies, without God virtually programming individual humans from creation to have certain given dispositions which will cause reactions in determined way given specific circumstances.

William Lane Craig might say, “humans have free will”, but since God controls both the circumstances and the individual’s disposition which causes the person to choose what God determined him/her to choose, that is not what I would call. “Free Will”.

I would like to go over most of the Biblical examples William Lang Craig used:

Peter’s three denial: “Jesus would know exactly what Peter did in the future with God given Perfect Foreknowledge, and is just stating what happened.”

David fleeing a city by God given contingencies, so David has the free will choice and God if telling David, the consequences of either choice. God does this a lot for all of us.

Jonah 3: God says He will do something then does not do it: This is actually proof God does have perfect foreknowledge, but that takes some explaining. You have to apply the truism in Jer. 18 to show how this is a warn for the people of Nineveh.

I do not have an hour to explain it so briefly:

You need to go back to my post 18 and understand “Man’s Objective” and Adam and Eve’s situation (I could have told God Adam and Eve would eventually sin in the Garden situation).

God knows when everything has been done for a person that would allow them to humbly accept God’s charity and so they will never accept God’s charity, so at that time they take on the lesser objective of helping others who can still choose to accept God’s charity as charity. So yes, those people no longer need free will and thus God can control use them in ways to help others.

Just showing God controls some people some of the time, people are not always making free will choices, and God has specific prophecies, does not mean all mature adult humans do not have free will choices that allows them to be solely responsible for the salvation.

God can from the beginning of time have Middle Knowledge and perfect foreknowledge, thus God knows all the possible choices the person can make, but the person has the free will to choose “A” instead of “B” or without any changes in circumstances the person can choose “B” instead of “A”. I explained how God can know perfectly from the beginning of time which choice the person made in the future and it still be a free will choice by the individual, which William Lang Craig does not explain.
 
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Navair2 said, " 1) Human reasoning, often called "logic", is not only a fickle thing from God's point of view, it is vain and corrupt as well.
It is to be completely disregarded in favor of whatever God says.
His word is truth...anything else that comes between His word and them should be cast aside in the life of the believer.

We as believers in Jesus Christ are to trust Him and His words implicitly, and not our own understanding ( Proverbs 3:5-7 )."

Philosophy simply entails thinking, reasoning, thought, wisdom, and knowledge. In Isaiah 1:18, the Lord beckons us to apply reason... "Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord." We are told to diligently study the scriptures, and how else can this be done without applying these God-given attributes of our minds?

When attempting to gain a fuller grasp of the concepts involved in the complex components associated with election to salvation such as predestination and foreknowledge (as well as many other scriptural topics), deep thought and reasoning becomes an essential tool. It most certainly cannot be viewed as some sort of "intrinsic evil", or "carnal tool" in the believer's quest to solve the many difficult questions of soteriology.

We are all free to voice our opinions on the various issues involved in predestination, or to reject the Molinist perspective; however, Molinism certainly cannot be dismissed upon the charge of it's application of philosophy or human reasoning.

"No, and not to seem contentious, but I don't need Molinism ( a theology systematized in roughly 1593 by the Spanish Jesuit priest Luis de Molina ) to explain it for me."

Many Protestants (which I consider myself) are scared off from Molinism since it's principles stemmed from a Roman Catholic (and I can understand this reluctance since Roman Catholicism's Council of Trent has asserted many heresies starting with the rejection of the scriptural declaration of a believer's justification). But many fail to realize that not everyone within that denomination agreed with everything that the Council of Trent asserted. Molina refuted Trent's stance on predestination and election, and many other Molinist's such as Suarez also rejected Trent's position on the eternal security of the believer by way of Molinism (in favor of God's preservation of all those who would come into a saving union with Christ).

Molina's doctrine of middle knowledge is the only doctrine I have ever seen that adequately refutes the Arminian view of God's simple foreknowledge, the 5-point Calvinistic view of hard determinism, as well as open theism's perspective of God's foreknowledge. In my opinion, Molinism best mediates, and explains how God can be absolutely Sovereign, and man can possess free moral agency.
 
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Mark Quayle

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Navair2 said, " 1) Human reasoning, often called "logic", is not only a fickle thing from God's point of view, it is vain and corrupt as well.
It is to be completely disregarded in favor of whatever God says.
His word is truth...anything else that comes between His word and them should be cast aside in the life of the believer.

We as believers in Jesus Christ are to trust Him and His words implicitly, and not our own understanding ( Proverbs 3:5-7 )."

Philosophy simply entails thinking, reasoning, thought, wisdom, and knowledge. In Isaiah 1:18, the Lord beckons us to apply reason... "Come now, and let us reason together, saith the Lord." We are told to diligently study the scriptures, and how else can this be done without applying these God-given attributes of our minds?

When attempting to gain a fuller grasp of the concepts involved in the complex components associated with election to salvation such as predestination and foreknowledge (as well as many other scriptural topics), deep thought and reasoning becomes an essential tool. It most certainly cannot be viewed as some sort of "intrinsic evil", or "carnal tool" in the believer's quest to solve the many difficult questions of soteriology.

We are all free to voice our opinions on the various issues involved in predestination, or to reject the Molinist perspective; however, Molinism certainly cannot be dismissed upon the charge of it's application of philosophy or human reasoning.

"No, and not to seem contentious, but I don't need Molinism ( a theology systematized in roughly 1593 by the Spanish Jesuit priest Luis de Molina ) to explain it for me."

Many Protestants (which I consider myself) are scared off from Molinism since it's principles stemmed from a Roman Catholic (and I can understand this reluctance since Roman Catholicism's Council of Trent has asserted many heresies starting with the rejection of the scriptural declaration of a believer's justification). But many fail to realize that not everyone within that denomination agreed with everything that the Council of Trent asserted. Molina refuted Trent's stance on predestination and election, and many other Molinist's such as Suarez also rejected Trent's position on the eternal security of the believer by way of Molinism (in favor of God's preservation of all those who would come into a saving union with Christ).

Molina's doctrine of middle knowledge is the only doctrine I have ever seen that adequately refutes the Arminian view of God's simple foreknowledge, the 5-point Calvinistic view of hard determinism, as well as open theism's perspective of God's foreknowledge. In my opinion, Molinism best mediates, and explains how God can be absolutely Sovereign, and man can possess free moral agency.
I have yet to see an adequate refutation of hard determinism —only misrepresentations and illogical supposed implications.

Nevertheless, I don't see Molinism as an attempted refutation of Calvinism, but an unnecessary attempt to reconcile it with the semi-Arminian doctrine of free will in the face of God's absolute sovereignty.
 
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Sorry guys about the multiple "nm" posts (= never mind). The moderators informed me that we cannot delete our posts completely, but instead to write "nm". My problems began when I added my avatar pic incorrectly and tried fixing the problem, but only made it worse. Sure hope I don't mess things up again.
 
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