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More than 150 Houston hospital workers fired or quit after refusing COVID-19 vaccine

ThatRobGuy

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Can you point me to the death reports on VAERS that look questionable?

I already did, if you go the to website and download their csv file, you can see reports like this:

---snipped from my previous post.
"About 5 hrs after receiving vaccine muscle ache in shoulder. Penis reduced in size, length, and circumference is significant since following day and pain in penal area from day 3 and day 5 most noticeable. Shape of penis has changed (noticed on day 4 due to an erection) and the skin has become loose with the size reduction (like baggy pants.)" -- a very scientific description, and totally not a 16 year old kid trying to make cheesy anatomy jokes.

"Explosive Diarhea and a touch of the AIDS" -- I'm glad this person only got 'a touch' of the AIDS and not full blown AIDS...that could've been serious...and they almost spelled diarrhea correctly.

"I feel like <***> dude!" -- a very thorough assessment, I'm sure that's the official terminology they teach in med school.

"666 Blood clots, heart attack, died 5 times survived, Blood is very thick blood thinners unable to thin" -- yeah, I'm sure that happened.


When you download that CSV file, the common theme you'll notice is that it's riddled with both nonsensical and almost a trolling type of material, and riddled with spelling errors. It's not a reliable source.
 
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FireDragon76

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Either way would be better than trusting a government that pushes something they haven't even approved of themselves.

What do you mean? Trump got vaccinated. Obviously, he approves of it, even if only tacitly.

When people twist "science" into a weapon. Happened in Germany in the 1930s. Some of us will never forget, even if the rest do.

Godwin. And quite absurd a comparison to any real student of history.
 
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RDKirk

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Actually, 597,727 are dead which sounds like a lot until you consider it took 33,257,768 confirmed cases to come up with that number.

597,727 is objectively a lot of people dead. Then consider it was from one cause. Then consider that it was in one nation. Then consider it was in only a few months.

But just as I said in post #172:

Anti-vaxxers are somehow viewing 600,000 as relatively insignificant.

And you just proved my point.
 
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Aldebaran

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What do you mean? Trump got vaccinated. Obviously, he approves of it, even if only tacitly.

Operation Warp Speed was also his idea, so of course he trusted the shot. But his "approval" of it isn't the same as the FDA's approval, which none of the vaccines have.
 
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Aldebaran

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597,727 is objectively a lot of people dead. Then consider it was from one cause. Then consider that it was in one nation. Then consider it was in only a few months.

I would consider all those things if they were true. It wasn't one cause. Most had underlying health issues. It also wasn't in a few months, but more like a year and 3 months.

And you just proved my point.

The thousands known to have died from the vaccine are considered insignificant all the time by the vaccine pushers. But that's different, right?
 
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GOD Shines Forth!

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I keep wondering if the powers which be are just eventually going to announce they won't treat people who aren't vaccinated....What if you had a heart problem and they say, "Oh not vaccinated? Sorry no ambulance will be coming to your place."

Bobber, don't give them (the powers) any ideas! Lol.
 
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KCfromNC

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I just heard of a new research group that showed that the immune response might be altered by the vaccine.
If this were actually true, I'd imagine this post would have linked to this research rather than just asserting it exists.
 
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whatbogsends

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I want to address a very legitimate question that Aldebaran raised re counting. As you may know, there was a time when everyone (in the UK, I believe) who died - even if hit by a truck - within 28 days of getting a positive covid test was considered a covid death. Even though this seems suspicious, and even though the anti-vaxxers have leapt all over this, there is, I believe, a solid explanation as to why this is indeed a "fair" way to count covid deaths. I have provide such an explanation in this thread. Fine.

The question that Aldebaran raised was "why is it not appropriate, then, to count everyone who has died within 28 days of a vaccine as a vaccine-caused death?". Fair question.

Let's look at covid first. Let's say that 5% of all people over 60 who test positive for covid will die because of covid. Let's say that 80% of those who die due to covid will die within 28 days. Let's suppose you get a positive test result on 1 January. Your odds of being dead by the end of January are then 0.80 x 0.05 = 0.04 (4%). What are your odds of dying of something else? Let's say we restrict ourselves to people over 60 and assume that everyone will be dead by 80 in the absence of covid. Doing some simple math, your odds of dying in that same month of January from something other than covid is about 1 in 250 - 0.4% (there are about 250 months in the 20 years from 60 to 80 and you will necessarily die in one of those months).

This is the key takeaway: assuming that you do die in January, it is about 10 times more likely that you will die of covid than of something else - remember, in this scenario, you tested positive on January 1st. This shows why this "count every death within 28 days of a positive covid test" strategy is actually not unreasonable.

What about vaccines now? Same idea - you get vaccinated on 1 January and you are dead by the end of January. Are you ten times as likely to have died of the vaccine as of any other reason?

I suggest the answer is obviously no. And, therefore, it would not be reasonable to count every death within 28 days of a vaccine as vaccine-caused death. In order for your death to have been 10 times as likely to be vaccine-caused as "other-cause" caused, the vaccine would need to kill 4 % of the 60 and over people who take it within a month.

And that is not remotely the case.

In any closed system, your math presupposes the mortality of Covid based on statistics that we know attribute death to Covid due to someone dying within 28 days of testing positive. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Q. Why do we count all deaths within 28 days of a Covid diagnosis as a Covid death?
A. Because Covid is a deadly disease in which 5%* of people over 60 die from Covid.

Q. How do we know Covid is a deadly disease?
A. Because of the statistics from diagnosis and death.

Q. How are statistics collected?
A. Anyone dying within 28 days of a positive Covid test counts as a Covid death.

The fatality rate statistics have the "anyone dying within 28 days of a positive Covid diagnosis" baked in to them.

Moreover, they used the same 28-day metric to determine a Covid death for anyone, not just the elderly. The reported Covid mortality for anyone under 50 (and women under 60) is less than .2%. That includes anyone who has died for any reason within 28 days after testing positive for Covid. Your rationale shown above falls apart entirely for anyone under 60 (and, according to the data referenced below, even 60-65 year olds have a .6% death rate, not a 5% death rate as you use in your example). In fact the death rate doesn't approach 5% until age 75+ (and that's 4.2%).

covid%20infection%20fatality%20rate%20death%20rate%20by%20age%20sex_0.png


COVID Infection Fatality Rates by Sex and Age | American Council on Science and Health (acsh.org)

Of course, all of this appears to specifically deal with the UKs counting of Covid deaths, as i have only seen the "28 day rule" in relation to UK's Covid death counting policy, not anywhere else.

That being said, i still believe it deserves scrutiny, as you hear passing by statements such as this:

According to NBC affiliate KGW in Oregon, if you die in a car crash in that state and previously tested positive for COVID-19 that's automatically considered a COVID-19 death.

But here in California, that determination is more stringent.


Health officials explain: What determines a COVID-19 death (ksby.com)
 
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wing2000

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Either way would be better than trusting a government that pushes something they haven't even approved of themselves.

...and yet according to your prior post, you decided to get the "unapproved" vaccine yourself. What convinced you to take that risk?
 
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expos4ever

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In any closed system, your math presupposes the mortality of Covid based on statistics that we know attribute death to Covid due to someone dying within 28 days of testing positive. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Q. Why do we count all deaths within 28 days of a Covid diagnosis as a Covid death?
A. Because Covid is a deadly disease in which 5%* of people over 60 die from Covid.
No. This is not a correct characterization and you will not be able to substantiate it.
 
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expos4ever

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The fatality rate statistics have the "anyone dying within 28 days of a positive Covid diagnosis" baked in to them.
I agree that this is a complicated matter. However, consider what you are asking people to believe. You are asking them to believe that you know better than hundreds if not thousands of trained experts.

Possible, but a priori, quite unlikely.

Can you show us one expert who believes that the "28 day" rule was not the best that could have been done?
 
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expos4ever

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When people twist "science" into a weapon. Happened in Germany in the 1930s. Some of us will never forget, even if the rest do.
Speculative cherry-picking.

You are making the frankly ridiculous argument that abuse of science in the past are grounds for not trusting it in the present.
 
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KCfromNC

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When people twist "science" into a weapon. Happened in Germany in the 1930s. Some of us will never forget, even if the rest do.
I always wonder when posts telling us how terrible the fruits of science are will lead by example and stop using them ... for example, by getting off the internet. Because until then, it seem a bit contradictory to promote how bad science is using something developed through research and technology.
 
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whatbogsends

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No. This is not a correct characterization and you will not be able to substantiate it.

You gave poor logic to justify a bad methodology and used incorrect statistics as justification. I showed the flaw in your logic and sourced my data for the correct statistics.

Yes, and my post explains in grisly detail why it is appropriate to use this approach.

Your post was rife with faulty assumptions and circular logic.

You used a 5% fatality rate metric for people over 60 as a substantial part of your justification, when only people over 80 actually have that fatality rate associated with the disease. Moreover, you wholly ignored that the 28 day metric was applied to all age groups, many of which have Covid fatality rates of .2% - a disparity of 25X rate. It's a poor justification for the methodology.

Again, i'll note, that these methodologies are included in determining the fatality rate in the first place. If you start with a methodology that overcounts deaths of a particular cause, you'll have a higher fatality rate for that cause, which is your is necessary to your justification in the first place. You presuppose the fatality rate as justification for counting deaths as Covid deaths which, in turn, increases the calculated fatality rate.

I agree that this is a complicated matter. However, consider what you are asking people to believe. You are asking them to believe that you know better than hundreds if not thousands of trained experts.

Possible, but a priori, quite unlikely.

Can you show us one expert who believes that the "28 day" rule was not the best that could have been done?

I haven't said that i know better than the experts, but i have said that the justification that you gave was spectacularly flawed, and demonstrated exactly that.

I haven't seen any "experts" who established their guidelines present their reasoning, so i have no basis to effectively judge their determination.

It is obvious, however, that with even a cursory review of the question, that the "experts" came up with different methodologies in different areas, so there doesn't appear to actually be a consensus in how to calculate deaths from Covid, and simply assuming that all methodologies are equally justified and supported by sound logic is an unsupported assumption. It would appear that "experts" are arguing with each other, as they can't agree on a method for calculation.

While this article is older, the fundamental discussion involving how statistics are collected is applicable. Here's what one expert had to say about how Covid deaths are counted:

But there are all sorts of challenges in comparing countries, such as how widely they test for Covid-19 and whether they count deaths from the virus in the same way.

Prof Sir David Spiegelhalter from Cambridge University has said trying to rank different countries to decide which is the worst in Europe is a "completely fatuous exercise".

...
First of all, there are differences in how countries record Covid-19 deaths.

France and Germany, for example, have been including deaths in care homes in the headline numbers they produce every day.

But the daily figures for England referred only to deaths in hospitals until 29 April, when they started factoring in deaths in care homes as well.

A further complication is that there is no accepted international standard for how you measure deaths, or their causes.

Does somebody need to have been tested for coronavirus to count towards the statistics, or are the suspicions of a doctor enough?

Germany counts deaths in care homes only if people have tested positive for the virus. Belgium, on the other hand, includes any death in which a doctor suspects coronavirus was involved.


Coronavirus: Why are international comparisons difficult? - BBC News

You consistently like to defer to the experts without even looking at their underlying basis, as if policy makers, simply by being in their position, are infallible and shouldn't be question. That's not how science works.

I'm not asking people to "believe" anything. I'm asking them to review the information available and make an assessment as to if what you're being presented is reasonable, rather than deferring to policy makers as experts beyond questioning.

You're the one asking them to believe that every different method of counting Covid deaths is reasonable and justified based on the sole fact that "experts" came up with each of those methods.
 
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expos4ever

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You gave poor logic to justify a bad methodology and used incorrect statistics as justification.
I disagree, but am not motivated to pursue this matter further, at least for now.
 
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