Why I'm not a young earth creationist...

[BNR32FAN]

Well if your god wanted us to see the evidence of its creation of the Earth a few millennia ago, it would really help if there wasn't abundant evidence to the contrary. So what is it:

1. All scientists are horribly incompetent,
2. All scientists are evil liars,
3. All scientists are incompetent or liars,
4. Scripture is wrong about the age and pre-history of the Earth.

I see no other possibilities.

If you only understood why Jesus spoke in parables you could understand why the earth appears to be older than it actually is.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Is there a God and if there is; which one is the true God - (and how do you know)?

Well that's not really on topic on this board, but I've never seen any evidence of god and find the claims about origins of a few pages of an old book to be rather unconvincing.

 

[The Righterzpen]

Where is the "righteousness" in taking evidence generated by thousands of people Christian and otherwise and pretending it says something other than they have carefully concluded. You are basically calling all of them liars with no evidence except that of the story you wished was supported.

What have they concluded. Some say origin theory is from "the big bang" and Darwinian evolution. Others say origin is of intelligent design.

Both camps look at the same evidence and come up with different conclusions. So who's right?

Some would say: "That depends on what you believe?"

Which inevitably boils down to the question of: "Is there a God and if there is; which one is the true God?"

 

[Hans Blaster]

If you only understood why Jesus spoke in parables you could understand why the earth appears to be older than it actually is.

Is it because early Christianity was a mystery cult? That explanation would make sense, but it has not relevance to the question I asked. Who's lying?

 

[The Righterzpen]

Well that's not really on topic on this board, but I've never seen any evidence of god and find the claims about origins of a few pages of an old book to be rather unconvincing.

Your point well taken; that isn't the topic of this particular thread. Yet in essence; this is what it boils down to.

 

[Ponderous Curmudgeon]

If you only understood why Jesus spoke in parables you could understand why the earth appears to be older than it actually is.

No, if they are parables, they are stories meant to tell a greater truth, and the simple facts contained therein are not to be taken literally but rather to make the story simpler to understand. Genesis is a story to tell us that God is the ultimate creator in language that was understandable by the people of the age.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Is it because early Christianity was a mystery cult? That explanation would make sense, but it has not relevance to the question I asked. Who's lying?

“When a large crowd was coming together, and those from the various cities were journeying to Him, He spoke by way of a parable: “The sower went out to sow his seed; and as he sowed, some fell beside the road, and it was trampled under foot and the birds of the air ate it up. Other seed fell on rocky soil, and as soon as it grew up, it withered away, because it had no moisture. Other seed fell among the thorns; and the thorns grew up with it and choked it out. Other seed fell into the good soil, and grew up, and produced a crop a hundred times as great.” As He said these things, He would call out, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.” His disciples began questioning Him as to what this parable meant. And He said, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is in parables, so that seeing they may not see, and hearing they may not understand.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭8:4-10‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“He who has ears to hear, let him hear”. Only those who will humble themselves to God will be permitted to understand the truth, those who are skeptical will not.

 

[BNR32FAN]

No, if they are parables, they are stories meant to tell a greater truth, and the simple facts contained therein are not to be taken literally but rather to make the story simpler to understand. Genesis is a story to tell us that God is the ultimate creator in language that was understandable by the people of the age.

Jesus told His apostle why He spoke in parables. Read post 88 please.

 

[BNR32FAN]

No, if they are parables, they are stories meant to tell a greater truth, and the simple facts contained therein are not to be taken literally but rather to make the story simpler to understand. Genesis is a story to tell us that God is the ultimate creator in language that was understandable by the people of the age.

Heres a better explanation from Matthew.

“And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?” Jesus answered them, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says, ‘You will keep on hearing, but will not understand; You will keep on seeing, but will not perceive; For the heart of this people has become dull, With their ears they scarcely hear, And they have closed their eyes, Otherwise they would see with their eyes, Hear with their ears, And understand with their heart and return, And I would heal them.’ But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear. For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13:10-17‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

 

[Ponderous Curmudgeon]

Jesus told His apostle why He spoke in parables. Read post 88 please.

And to you it is a parable, could it be you who has not been granted the understanding of the mysteries.

 

[The Righterzpen]

Where do you get the idea that "lots of water" is required to form fossils?

As for rapid burial, there are lots of ways for a creature or its skeleton to be buried before the bones are all gone.

A flood certainly isn't required for either.

When an animal dies and decomposes in the wild; what usually happens? (Scavengers come and pick the body apart.) Did the deer that died in the woods last year (or the year before that, or the year before that....) become fossils? No they didn't.

Yet look at the fossils. They are of complete animals.

https://digitalatlas.cose.isu.edu/teach/lsnho/geo5AK.pdf

 

[Hans Blaster]

“He who has ears to hear, let him hear”. Only those who will humble themselves to God will be permitted to understand the truth, those who are skeptical will not.

That's literally how mystery cults work, public knowledge for recruiting and private knowledge for insiders and true believers.

But what does any of this have to do with YEC (pro/con)?

 

[Hans Blaster]

When an animal dies and decomposes in the wild; what usually happens? (Scavengers come and pick the body apart.) Did the deer that died in the woods last year (or the year before that, or the year before that....) become fossils? No they didn't.

Yet look at the fossils. They are of complete animals.

https://digitalatlas.cose.isu.edu/teach/lsnho/geo5AK.pdf

Not all fossils are full animals.

No one has claimed that fossilization is common. In fact the evidence is that fossilization is rare.

 

[The Righterzpen]

Not all fossils are full animals.

No one has claimed that fossilization is common. In fact the evidence is that fossilization is rare.

This is true; fossils are rare. Thus special circumstances that they come about.

Can also investigate mummified and frozen animal remains. Prehistoric animals have been found in bogs and tar pits etc.

 

[Ponderous Curmudgeon]

Heres a better explanation from Matthew.

“And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?” Jesus answered them, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says, ‘You will keep on hearing, but will not understand; You will keep on seeing, but will not perceive; For the heart of this people has become dull, With their ears they scarcely hear, And they have closed their eyes, Otherwise they would see with their eyes, Hear with their ears, And understand with their heart and return, And I would heal them.’ But blessed are your eyes, because they see; and your ears, because they hear. For truly I say to you that many prophets and righteous men desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13:10-17‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Yes it is a rather good description of the YEC- TE dichotomy. One looks at what God has created and sees it and understands it as how it was created, and the other sees only what they see in their own minds and interpretation of a small part. It gets worse when one group pretends that what they see is really what is only in their mind.

 

[Estrid]

OK - I went back and looked at what you'd written. My apologies to you; I ACKNOWLEDGE you did not say that there was not an asteroid / Gulf of Mexico dinosaur extinction theory.

I do have the humility to admit when I'm wrong.

Regardless of whether or not you will actually acknowledge that - doesn't matter. My conscience is clear.

Now the real crux of the matter; what of the Creator; the flood and the Bible?

Is there a God and if there is; which one is the true God - (and how do you know)?

I am duly impressed impressed that you have
the capacity to admit even one error.
I never saw a creationist do that before.

Not that you' ve admitted to your original nonsense
re how the Gulf was formed, nor dealt with
that you flat out lied about / mocked me,
so the "humility" does not seem to
run very deep.

If you want a crux, it's that after the
performance you've put on there's
no way I will waste further time on
anything you have to say.

 

[Ponderous Curmudgeon]

When an animal dies and decomposes in the wild; what usually happens? (Scavengers come and pick the body apart.) Did the deer that died in the woods last year (or the year before that, or the year before that....) become fossils? No they didn't.

Yet look at the fossils. They are of complete animals.

https://digitalatlas.cose.isu.edu/teach/lsnho/geo5AK.pdf

And the word usually is the point, usually that happens, but occasionally something else happens and typical patterns don't hold. Vol;canos, landslides, falling into a tar pit etc. but you are right, fossilization is rare, or we would be buried in them.

 

[Estrid]

Personally if I’m going to believe the word of God I feel that I have to let go of what I think is reasonably logical and just accept it for what it says because knowing that God is all powerful I can have confidence that He is able to defy the laws of science. So if the word of God says the earth is a little over 6,000 years old and scientists say that’s impossible I don’t have a problem with that knowing that nothing is impossible for God.

What makes you think that you personally have the
ability to actually know exactly what is the word
of God, and infallibly interpret it?

Don't try to speak for science when
you have no idea at all what you are
talking about.
It never goes well.

 

[The Righterzpen]

Personally if I’m going to believe the word of God I feel that I have to let go of what I think is reasonably logical and just accept it for what it says because knowing that God is all powerful I can have confidence that He is able to defy the laws of science. So if the word of God says the earth is a little over 6,000 years old and scientists say that’s impossible I don’t have a problem with that knowing that nothing is impossible for God.

I'm not convinced that Scripture says the earth is only 6000 years old though.

There are different ways of calculating the genealogies than what Usher said. If you line up the patriarchs "end on end" except where you see "and called his name" than you get an earth that's a little more than 13000 years old.

Which also makes more sense to history and what we know of accuracy / "reliability" (or not) of scientific dating. There's a lot of ways to date stuff; (not just carbon 14; which has it's own issues).

I certainly agree that God is capable of suspending laws that govern the cosmos; but I also don't believe God "made something look" other than what it is. That's why I say the issue isn't the evidence; it's the interoperation there of.

"Suppress the truth in unrighteousness" is a very real phenomenon. I mean look at the news. Look at politics. Even look at recorded history. How much of what we're told happened in WWI, WWII, Vietnam, 9/11 etc; that they say happened didn't really happen.

Evil is real and so are lies. It's not always as simple as one person's interoperation against another's. Yeah, honest mistakes happen; but not all withholding of information is so benign.

And God doesn't lie. So there is a distinct line between for example how God wrote Scripture with the requirement of human diligence to "know these things are so" (I.E. the Berean searchers!) To make one dig to find the answer is not the same as lying.

So yeah, there's a degree of parable in the Bible; but God being deceptive is not in His character.

 

[Estrid]

Well that's not really on topic on this board, but I've never seen any evidence of god and find the claims about origins of a few pages of an old book to be rather unconvincing.

But what about the crazy drivel that they
trot out to "prove" their point??

That's gotta convince you of something!