- Dec 12, 2020
- 40
- 20
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- Indonesia
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- Protestant
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- Single
Hello, I have several questions regarding Lordship Salvation. Jesus laid out the terms of discipleship in Luke 14:25-33. In order to be a disciple of Jesus (i.e. a true Christian - yes, I believe in Lordship Salvation), these are the conditions (source):
(a) Love Jesus so greatly to the point that our love for our family members and our own life looks like hatred.
(b) Be willing to bear reproach for Christ's sake, and also to deny ourselves of selfish desires.
(c) Emotionally let go of all that we have, and possibly, physically as well (i.e. let go in real life).
My questions are the following:
1. Does this mean that we are all on-and-off disciples since no Christian can perfectly obey the terms of discipleship at all times? I know that this may seem like a silly question, but I can't seem to reconcile in my mind how I can still continuously be a disciple of Jesus if at any one point in my life I fail to, say, love Jesus much more than my family members (notice that this is the condition of being a disciple: "If anyone comes to Me and does not hate ..., he cannot be My disciple.").
For Questions 2 to 4 (source):
A friend of John Piper (from Desiring God) once sent Piper a message of serious concern for his affirming review of John MacArthur's book, The Gospel According to Jesus. Piper's friend wrote:
2. Does a person need to fulfill all the conditions of being a disciple (as laid out in (a), (b), and (c)) before receiving the Holy Spirit if he/she is told upfront of the cost of discipleship after hearing the gospel - unlike Bill (and me), who discovered the cost of discipleship at a later time?
3. If the answer to the second question is a no, then what are the conditions for a person who has just heard the gospel to receive the Holy Spirit (and thus be able to understand and interpret Scripture, etc.)?
4. If the answer to the second question is a yes, how is it fair that people like Bill (and me) got the chance to taste God's goodness before fully submitting to His lordship, whereas the new Christians who are told upfront of the cost of discipleship after hearing the gospel, do not? Or were me and Bill simply deceived in the first place?
5. How does your answer for the second question relate to the process of sanctification?
This issue has been really bothering me for a couple of weeks now. I would really appreciate it if I can get insight into this issue. Thank you, and God bless!
(a) Love Jesus so greatly to the point that our love for our family members and our own life looks like hatred.
(b) Be willing to bear reproach for Christ's sake, and also to deny ourselves of selfish desires.
(c) Emotionally let go of all that we have, and possibly, physically as well (i.e. let go in real life).
My questions are the following:
1. Does this mean that we are all on-and-off disciples since no Christian can perfectly obey the terms of discipleship at all times? I know that this may seem like a silly question, but I can't seem to reconcile in my mind how I can still continuously be a disciple of Jesus if at any one point in my life I fail to, say, love Jesus much more than my family members (notice that this is the condition of being a disciple: "If anyone comes to Me and does not hate ..., he cannot be My disciple.").
For Questions 2 to 4 (source):
A friend of John Piper (from Desiring God) once sent Piper a message of serious concern for his affirming review of John MacArthur's book, The Gospel According to Jesus. Piper's friend wrote:
"Near the age of fifteen I accepted Christ as my Savior. As I look back on my life, I can see He had powerful influence during my late teen years and early twenties. In my late twenties I began to be aware of the concept of Christ as Lord. As I investigated that concept and struggled with it, I realized that for Christ to be Lord, I had to submit everything to Him. In my early thirties I did just that. The concept of ‘lordship salvation’ that you support would mean that had I died at age twenty-two, that is, before Christ was Lord, I would not have gone to Heaven."
To this, Piper replied in a letter (published here) by saying:"You know, Bill (not his real name), I think Jesus was your Lord before that later act of submission. I think he was your Lord the night you were converted and since then your experience has been one of more and more yieldedness to his sovereign rights as Lord over your life. And I don’t think that you have bowed to his lordship consistently since that time you ‘made him Lord’. You are not fully yielded now or you would be sinless. But he is still your Lord now. And you were not fully yielded then, but he was your Lord then."
2. Does a person need to fulfill all the conditions of being a disciple (as laid out in (a), (b), and (c)) before receiving the Holy Spirit if he/she is told upfront of the cost of discipleship after hearing the gospel - unlike Bill (and me), who discovered the cost of discipleship at a later time?
3. If the answer to the second question is a no, then what are the conditions for a person who has just heard the gospel to receive the Holy Spirit (and thus be able to understand and interpret Scripture, etc.)?
4. If the answer to the second question is a yes, how is it fair that people like Bill (and me) got the chance to taste God's goodness before fully submitting to His lordship, whereas the new Christians who are told upfront of the cost of discipleship after hearing the gospel, do not? Or were me and Bill simply deceived in the first place?
5. How does your answer for the second question relate to the process of sanctification?
This issue has been really bothering me for a couple of weeks now. I would really appreciate it if I can get insight into this issue. Thank you, and God bless!