Calvinism and its Secret Universalism

[Titus Dorn]

Unfortunately, that parable doesn’t support your assertion. It wasn’t about individuals, but about Jerusalem.

But let me see if I can flesh out your understanding. You say that Christ gives people time to bear fruit, and then are cut off after a certain time. If that’s the case, then once they bear fruit, they can never be lost, correct?

Simon the Sorcerer obeyed the gospel in Acts 8:13

Then Simon himself believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip and was amazed seeing the miracles and signs which were done.

Now Simon is going to sin against God by trying to buy the gift of miracles from the apostles with money.

Acts 8:18-19 And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money, saying give me this power also that anyone on whom i lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit.

Now Peter is going to tell him if he does not repent of his sin he will perish.

Acts 8:20
But Peter said to him, Your money PERISH with you, because you thought that the gift of God could be purchased with money!

Acts 8:21-22
You have neither part nor portion in this matter, for your heart is not right in the sight of God, repent therefore of this wickedness and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you.

Simon asks Peter to pray for him that he not perish for his sin.

Acts 8:24
Then Simon answered and said, pray to the Lord for me, that none of the things which you have spoken may come upon me.

 

[Hammster]

No because Paul and Timothy both bore fruit and Paul said that if they deny Christ He will deny them.

What does Jesus say happens to fruit-bearing vines in John 15?

 

[Hammster]

Simon the Sorcerer obeyed the gospel in Acts 8:13

Then Simon himself believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip and was amazed seeing the miracles and signs which were done.

Now Simon is going to sin against God by trying to buy the gift of miracles from the apostles with money.

Acts 8:18-19 And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money, saying give me this power also that anyone on whom i lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit.

Now Peter is going to tell him if he does not repent of his sin he will perish.

Acts 8:20
But Peter said to him, Your money PERISH with you, because you thought that the gift of God could be purchased with money!

Acts 8:21-22
You have neither part nor portion in this matter, for your heart is not right in the sight of God, repent therefore of this wickedness and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you.

Simon asks Peter to pray for him that he not perish for his sin.

Acts 8:24
Then Simon answered and said, pray to the Lord for me, that none of the things which you have spoken may come upon me.

Looks like he was apostate.

 

[Hammster]

The stronghold of Calvinism?

Definitely relevant, but so is all of scripture.

 

[Titus Dorn]

Looks like he was apostate.

That's an assumption. The scriptures say he believed and was baptized. If he was not of the "elect". Peter would not of told him to once again get right with God through repentance.

Perish, destruction. Same Greek word used in Hebrews 10:39.

Hebrews 10:39
But we are not of those who draw back to PERDITION, but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.

 

[Titus Dorn]

Judas never knew Jesus, he never entered into an intimate relationship with Him. He had been stealing money from the treasury during the time he was following Jesus. According to the scriptures it appears as if this happened several times.

You are correct, Sir.

 

[Hammster]

That's an assumption. The scriptures say he believed and was baptized. If he was not of the "elect". Peter would not of told him to once again get right with God through repentance.

How would Peter know?

 

[Titus Dorn]

Peter obviously did not believe in calvinism.

Peter would not of told him to get right with God if it was not up to Simon to choose.

The scriptures teach that he Believed and was baptized.

That is what is written and that is what we must believe.

 

[Hammster]

Peter obviously did not believe in calvinism.

Peter would not of told him to get right with God if it was not up to Simon to choose.

The scriptures teach that he Believed and was baptized.

That is what is written and that is what we must believe.

Okay.

 

[Titus Dorn]

Okay.

Do you deny Simon believed as Gods word said he did?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Simon the Sorcerer obeyed the gospel in Acts 8:13

Then Simon himself believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip and was amazed seeing the miracles and signs which were done.

Now Simon is going to sin against God by trying to buy the gift of miracles from the apostles with money.

Acts 8:18-19 And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money, saying give me this power also that anyone on whom i lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit.

Now Peter is going to tell him if he does not repent of his sin he will perish.

Acts 8:20
But Peter said to him, Your money PERISH with you, because you thought that the gift of God could be purchased with money!

Acts 8:21-22
You have neither part nor portion in this matter, for your heart is not right in the sight of God, repent therefore of this wickedness and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you.

Simon asks Peter to pray for him that he not perish for his sin.

Acts 8:24
Then Simon answered and said, pray to the Lord for me, that none of the things which you have spoken may come upon me.

Yes, there are more writings about Simon Magus about what he did after this took place that I thought were pretty interesting. Not sure if they’re true but it’s an interesting story.

 

[BNR32FAN]

What does Jesus say happens to fruit-bearing vines in John 15?

they are pruned or cleansed, what’s your point?

 

[Hammster]

Do you deny Simon believed as Gods word said he did?

He believed something. Could have been like the first three soils.

 

[Hammster]

they are pruned or cleansed, what’s your point?

They are pruned so that they will produce more fruit.

 

[BNR32FAN]

They are pruned so that they will produce more fruit.

Yes just like the apostles who were pruned yet they were still capable of turning away from Christ.

 

[Titus Dorn]

He believed something. Could have been like the first three soils.

Well, you can believe that Jesus did not save him.
But the scriptures leave no room for any other conclusion.

All the scriptures tell us is that he also believed and was baptized.

Taken in context of Simon's conversion. He was compared with those right before him that were saved.

Also believed

Acts 8:5-8;12-13
Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria and preached Christ to them.

And the multitudes with one accord heeded the things spoken by Philip, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.

For unclean spirits, crying with a loud voice, came out of many who were possessed; and many who were paralyzed and lame were healed.

And there was great joy in that city.

V12-13
But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized.

Then Simon himself ALSO believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done.

Simon also believed like those who heard the gospel preached by Philip.

To say Simon's conversion was not true Biblical faith is to say the rest of the accounts in Acts 8 were not true converts to Christ.

I am going to believe what Gods word says. It says they believed and were baptized. And that is all it says.

 

[Hammster]

Yes just like the apostles who were pruned yet they were still capable of turning away from Christ.

Odd that Jesus says pruning produces more fruit, yet you say pruning can result in no fruit. Who should we go with on this one?

 

[Hammster]

Well, you can believe that Jesus did not save him.
But the scriptures leave no room for any other conclusion.

All the scriptures tell us is that he also believed and was baptized.

Taken in context of Simon's conversion. He was compared with those right before him that were saved.

Also believed

Acts 8:5-8;12-13
Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria and preached Christ to them.

And the multitudes with one accord heeded the things spoken by Philip, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.

For unclean spirits, crying with a loud voice, came out of many who were possessed; and many who were paralyzed and lame were healed.

And there was great joy in that city.

V12-13
But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized.

Then Simon himself ALSO believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done.

Simon also believed like those who heard the gospel preached by Philip.

To say Simon's conversion was not true Biblical faith is to say the rest of the accounts in Acts 8 were not true converts to Christ.

I am going to believe what Gods word says. It says they believed and were baptized. And that is all it says.

When was he regenerated? Justified? Sanctified? Which verses can I go to in order to find out?

 

[Titus Dorn]

When was he regenerated? Justified? Sanctified? Which verses can I go to in order to find out?

Acts 8:13
You don't believe God? His word said he believed and was baptized.

You are proving me correct that calvinist's cannot know if they are of the elect and cannot know if they are saved.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Odd that Jesus says pruning produces more fruit, yet you say pruning can result in no fruit. Who should we go with on this one?

Your not quoting Jesus correctly. He didn’t say pruning produces more fruit He said “He prunes it so that it may (can potentially) bear more fruit”. He didn’t say it will bear more fruit. So far you’ve struck out on every angle you’ve tried but keep trying. I believe it was Thomas Edison who said “I didn’t fail, I just found 2,000 ways not to make a light bulb”.