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Literal Mark?

Is the Mark Literal


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Timtofly

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mark of the beast in Revelation 13, John sees a second beast coming out of the earth in verse 11. If this is not a literal beast actually coming out of a hole in the literal ground, then it is a symbol for something. The actions of this beast are to get people to serve and worship the first beast and place a mark on people’s right hands and foreheads by which they have economic access in society. If the reader begins seeing this as non-literal, a transition in the text would be needed to say that it is now moved to literal. Without this break, it is generally a good practice to carry the symbolism through the end of the thought. So that, one doesn’t say, “The first beast is symbolic, the second beast is symbolic, their actions are symbolic, the number of the beast 666 is symbolic, but the mark is literal.” Because the mark is situated within a symbolic narrative, it is more likely itself to be symbolic as well.
One can look at Jesus’ mark in Revelation 19 where certain words are written on his thigh and there is another mark on him that gives his name which people see, but they cannot read it. In this section, Jesus has two marks on his body. Are these literal? In the section he also has a sword coming out of his mouth. They are not like the literal marks on his hands and in his side to which he asks doubting Thomas to touch. If Jesus’ marks in Revelation are symbolic, and the mark on God’s followers are symbolic, then would it not be a more accurate guess to suggest that the mark of the beast is symbolic too? Is there anything in the text that gives good reason to suggest otherwise? I cannot find one. lemme ask you guys through poll and through this thread is the Mark Literal?
The result of the graphic depiction of the first beast is a human called the False Prophet. The second beast is not human, because it does not come from the sea of humanity. It is Satan, whose domain is the earth. Satan's domain is not humanity.

Satan and the FP are both beings. One a human, and one an angel.

The mark is not placed on any one by just any person. That phrase is not in God's Word nor implied figuratively. This is what is said:

"Also it forces everyone — great and small, rich and poor, free and slave — to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead."

Another entity is giving out the mark. The way Satan causes the mark to be recieved is by denying them a part in the economics of society. Notice that Satan is not even killing people for not taking the mark. Here us what is allowed:

"and it was allowed to cause anyone who would not worship the image of the beast to be put to death."

So death did not involve taking or not taking the mark. Death was handed only to those who did not worship the image. We have an OT example when Nebuchadnezzar also built an image and forced his subjects to worship the beast. The 3 who refused were not allowed to die, because God saved them, even in death.

Apply that to Revelation. Those who worship the image recieved a literal mark by God to show to all, even Satan, that they rejected God and worshipped Satan, the FP, and the beast. The image was given life, a beast.

So to force worship, Satan denied one economic stability. Satan nor any human can place the mark. Only God does. Now to avoid the mark one chooses to have their head removed. Because at this point, that is the only way to prevent one's heart from accidentally worshipping this government. It is a proactive choice, just like the 3 Hebrews proactively decided to be thrown into the fire, which incidentally killed those people who threw them in. I always questioned, why did they not just walk into the furnace instead of being thrown.

The choice between receiving the mark and preventing the mark is portrayed as a step of faith. Revelation 20:4

"those who had been beheaded for testifying about Yeshua and proclaiming the Word of God"

Many interpret the beheading as a result. The beheading was the act of faith, not knowing the outcome other than it was the only way to avoid the mark. Because in chapter 13, death was from not worshipping. Yet Revelation 20 states beheading was the Testament of faith. It does not say:

"those who had been beheaded for not worshipping the FP, Satan, or the beast."

The three Hebrews choose the fire as a step of faith, instead of worshipping. During those 42 months when Satan is in charge many may be killed for not worshipping, but only those who take the step of faith and have their head cut off to prevent God from giving them the mark, will be resurrected to reign in the Millennium. Those who have the mark are removed from the Lamb's book of life for ever. They go into the Lake of Fire, as their choice was made while living and permanent. The mark is directly related to how God perceives them, and can only be given by God. If one's name is literally in a literal Lamb's book of life, and the lake of fire is literal, and God is literally keeping a record of who is who, and people in the Lamb's book of life literally live forever, then the mark is literal.
 
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BuildingApologetics

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interesting response Deuteronomy 6 is a popular view for the mark nowadays with scholarship did you get this view from scholars or you studied it yourself
Well I first heard of the idea from Kenneth Gentry, although I am not a preterist. I continued to investigate the idea, and it seems to be the strongest connection to forehead and hand, considering the themes of both "Marks" are the same.
 
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Busryde

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and how is Gods people not already marked by him isnt it in the bible that we are marked by God in our hearts (1 Corinthians 1:22)
are you insinuating that we can lose our mark from God, and take the "invisible" mark from the beast?
Dou love the lord greater than being able to buy/sell? Jesus told his disciples to leave everything behind, but the clothes on thir bacclk and the sandals on their feet and go spread his message. He also said God wouldi thir needs.

Look at headline on dregereport, Danes are not going to be able to travel, go to an eatery, nor buy/sell unless they a digital mark.
 
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Douggg

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The result of the graphic depiction of the first beast is a human called the False Prophet.
In Revelation 13, the sea represents the nations. The earth represents Israel.

Satan is the dragon. Satan is neither the first beast (the one coming out of the sea, the nations) nor the second beast (the one coming out of the earth, Israel) in Revelation 13.

Revelation 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

out of the mouth of the dragon
out of the mouth of the beast (first beast, coming out of the sea)
out of the mouth of the false prophet (second beast, coming out of the earth)

Satan is obviously not the false prophet (second beast). Nor the first beast.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Satan will be cast into the lake of fire - where the beast (first beast) and the false prophet (second beast) are at that time.

So obviously Satan is not the false prophet, nor the first beast.
 
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dóxatotheó

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Dou love the lord greater than being able to buy/sell? Jesus told his disciples to leave everything behind, but the clothes on thir bacclk and the sandals on their feet and go spread his message. He also said God wouldi thir needs.

Look at headline on dregereport, Danes are not going to be able to travel, go to an eatery, nor buy/sell unless they a digital mark.
not an answer friend
 
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Timtofly

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In Revelation 13, the sea represents the nations. The earth represents Israel.

Satan is the dragon. Satan is neither the first beast (the one coming out of the sea, the nations) nor the second beast (the one coming out of the earth, Israel) in Revelation 13.

Revelation 16:13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

out of the mouth of the dragon
out of the mouth of the beast (first beast, coming out of the sea)
out of the mouth of the false prophet (second beast, coming out of the earth)

Satan is obviously not the false prophet (second beast). Nor the first beast.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Satan will be cast into the lake of fire - where the beast (first beast) and the false prophet (second beast) are at that time.

So obviously Satan is not the false prophet, nor the first beast.
There is only one human in the group, and it is not Satan. The beast is not human. Only the FP is human.
 
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Douggg

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There is only one human in the group, and it is not Satan. The beast is not human. Only the FP is human.
The first beast coming out of the sea, i.e. an idom for the nations, is the little horn>Antichrist>beast person. A man.

The second beast coming out the earth, i.e. an idom for Israel, is the false prophet. A man.

Satan is an angel to be cast down (along with his third of the angels) from the second heaven to earth in Revelation 12:7-9. An angel.
 
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Timtofly

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The first beast coming out of the sea, i.e. an idom for the nations, is the little horn>Antichrist>beast person. A man.

The second beast coming out the earth, i.e. an idom for Israel, is the false prophet. A man.

Satan is an angel to be cast down (along with his third of the angels) from the second heaven to earth in Revelation 12:7-9. An angel.
Does this not contradict your own point that the 2 witnesses are killed by the One coming out of the pit? (You claim earlier when the pit is opened) The figurative point about Satan is he is from the pit. Right now Satan can freely go to and from all levels of creation: heaven, earth, and sheol. Total access, since Satan is not physically bound to any one area.


You have to add a 4th person to the mix. Satan, the AC, the FP, and the beast. Satan is not one of the last 3. The beast is the image brought to life and given a name we have to solve as a mystery. The FP is a human. Because John does not name the beast, the AC is either the FP, Satan, or the image without a name brought to life.
 
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Douggg

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You have to add a 4th person to the mix. Satan, the AC, the FP, and the beast.
The little horn>Antichrist>beast is one end times person*.

The False prophet is another end times person.

Satan is another person, an angel going back to the beginning of creation.

__________________________________________________

There is separately a being in the bottomless pit, now a disembodied spirit, who will come out of the pit to possess the end times person*. That being, currently in the bottomless pit, is the original serpent that was in the garden of eden.
 
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Timtofly

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The little horn>Antichrist>beast is one end times person*.

The False prophet is another end times person.

Satan is another person, an angel going back to the beginning of creation.

__________________________________________________

There is separately a being in the bottomless pit, now a disembodied spirit, who will come out of the pit to possess the end times person*. That being, currently in the bottomless pit, is the original serpent that was in the garden of eden.
Is that your claim of how the image comes to life? It is still a beast and no human parents.
 
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Douggg

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Is that your claim of how the image comes to life? It is still a beast and no human parents.
No. The image of the beast, a statue, will come to life by Satan incarnating the statue.

the beast - an end times man (who becomes possessed).

the false prophet - an end times man

Satan - a angel going back to the time of creation, who will incarnate the statue image of the end times beast man. Which the people of the world will worship Satan (perhaps unknowingly) when they bow down to that statue.
 
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Timtofly

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No. The image of the beast, a statue, will come to life by Satan incarnating the statue.

the beast - an end times man (who becomes possessed).

the false prophet - an end times man

Satan - a angel going back to the time of creation, who will incarnate the statue image of the end times beast man. Which the people of the world will worship Satan (perhaps unknowingly) when they bow down to that statue.
That makes 4.
 
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Jeffwhosoever

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Does everyone think the time is imminent and that the Antichrist is alive? I'm hearing more and more Pastors who think we are at the very end and that tribulation could be either underway (the 7 years) or very near. I know the Lord told us no one knows the hour or day of His return, but we can know the "season" or at least have a spiritual insight that time is soon, or so it seems to me.
 
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Douggg

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That makes 4.
The man in the cemetery that Jesus freed him of the multitude of uncleaned spirits that possessed him was one human.

It is not 4 humans. The snake in the garden was a literal beast - not a human.
 
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dóxatotheó

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The result of the graphic depiction of the first beast is a human called the False Prophet. The second beast is not human, because it does not come from the sea of humanity. It is Satan, whose domain is the earth. Satan's domain is not humanity.
The first beast represents the fact that governing leadership and authority can be twisted into the service of evil: “The serpent gave its power, kingdom, and far-reaching authority to the beast” (Rev 13:2). When Jesus was tempted in the wilderness, this was the final offer made by the tempter: “Once more the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms in the world and their glory. The devil said to him, ‘I will give you all this if you will bow down and worship me’ ” (Matt 4:8-9). What Jesus rejected Satan eventually finds someone to accept. The dragon/serpent/Satan of Revelation 12 and the two beasts form an obvious and offensive trinity in their determined efforts to resists and overthrow God. Their fate is sealed and made apparent in Revelation 19:19-20 when the Word of God, Jesus, arrives with the armies of heaven and defeats Satan and his armies.
John refers to certain participants in the final rebellion against God as beasts, or “the beast.” In biblical language, the primary beast of Revelation is also known as the Antichrist (see 1 John 2:18-19). Two beasts figure prominently in Revelation. One is introduced in 13:1 as a beast from the sea, displaying many of the characteristics of Daniel’s four beasts. In an obscene mockery of the great idea that we are made in the image of God (Gen 1:27), the first beast appears to be made in the image of the dragon/serpent Satan, from whom he gets his power and authority. This is beast (the Antichrist) also becomes the object of worship by much of humanity (Rev 13:3-4). He is a symbol of all that is opposed to God. The second beast arises from the earth and functions as the enforcer for the first beast (see Rev 13:11-14). Both beast appear to symbolize humans who operate under the control of Satan. Like the beasts of Daniel, they are heads of systems of power, but they function under the evil authority of Satan who can only exercise as much power as God allows.
The first beast is a ten-horned, seven-headed monstrosity empowered and given authority by a dragon (Revelation 13:1–2). One of the heads is mortally wounded but is healed (verse 3). The beast is blasphemous against God and actively persecutes God’s people on earth (verses 5–7). It not only rules the world but receives the worship of the world’s inhabitants (verses 4, 7–8). The first beast is a symbolic picture of the Antichrist, and the dragon is Satan (cf. Revelation 12:9).
The second beast is a two-horned, deceptively benign creature that shares authority with the first beast (Revelation 13:11–12). The task of the second beast is to cause everyone to worship the first beast. As the second beast deceives the world with miracles, it orders that everyone “set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived” (verse 14). It also requires that everyone receive the mark of the beast in their forehead or right hand (verses 16–17). The second beast is a symbolic picture of the false prophet.
The beasts in prophecy represent kingdoms and empires as interpreted by Scripture itself in Daniel 7.
Satan and the FP are both beings. One a human, and one an angel.
your first explanation does not exert literal beast i explained quite well what they are and meant.

The mark is not placed on any one by just any person. That phrase is not in God's Word nor implied figuratively. This is what is said:

"Also it forces everyone — great and small, rich and poor, free and slave — to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead."
if one examines this idea within the context of Revelation alone, he or she will find that all of Revelation is a book of “marks.” It seems most everyone has a mark of some kind. Some angels have marks or seals both to give to God’s people and perhaps are they themselves sealed (Rev. 7:2). The 144,000 which represent Israel has a seal on their foreheads (Rev. 7:3). In one of the pictures of the final judgement, the people without the seal of God on their foreheads were judged and subjected to the wrath of God against sinfulness (Rev. 9:4). The first beast out of the sea has a mark of a “blasphemous name” written on his heads (Rev. 13:1). The second beast out of the sea, who promoted the worship of the first beast by all means necessary, forced people to take on the mark of the beast on their hands and foreheads (Rev. 13:16-17). This mark gave people rights in society to do such things as buy and sell. This group is described in direct contrast with the 144,000 who has the mark of the Lamb written on their foreheads (Rev. 14:1). The mark of the beast is then to be interpreted by the same measure as one interprets the mark of God’s people. Another picture of the judgement against those with the mark of the beast is described and the mark is once again linked to worshiping the beast. In each case, the mark is tied to a person’s worship (Rev. 14:11). The mark is again linked to worship in a picture of judgement in Revelation 16:2. The Prostitute of Babylon also had mark written on her forehead (Rev. 17:5). Even Jesus, as the warrior coming on the white horse, is said to have a mark written upon him (Rev.19:12-16). The mark of the beast is mentioned yet again; and, as always, it accompanies worshiping the beast (Rev. 19:20). Those in Christ who had not worshiped the beast were said to have not received the beast’s mark (Rev. 20:4). At the very end, the bride of Christ is said to have Jesus’ name written on their foreheads (Rev. 22:4).
What I gather from these references is that a “mark” in each case is way of describing who a person is, and what a person is all about. Jesus’ mark describes him as King and Conqueror. The Beast’s and Prostitute’s mark is also a reference to their character and identity. Throughout Revelation there are only two types of people, those who receive Jesus’ mark and those who receive the beast’s mark. These marks are descriptions of their identity and to whom they offer worship. If one worships the beast, then they belong to evil. If one worships the Lamb, then they belong to righteousness. We become who we worship.
The marks also indicate what will happen to a person. The Lamb’s seal will be the mark of eternal life into heaven and the mark of the beast will a seal guaranteeing entrance to hell.
The mark is not a literal mark on a person’s body, like a tattoo, it is symbolic of who we are becoming through our worship and thus indicates the final destiny of our lives. This idea didn’t begin in Revelation. Revelation takes up this image from both the Old Testament and the New Testament.
Another entity is giving out the mark. The way Satan causes the mark to be recieved is by denying them a part in the economics of society. Notice that Satan is not even killing people for not taking the mark. Here us what is allowed:

"and it was allowed to cause anyone who would not worship the image of the beast to be put to death."
The word used in Revelation for “mark” was the Greek word charagma. A charagma was the image of the emperor’s head that was put on all Roman coins, and stamps on official documents. This contributes to the idea that those who participated in the emperor cult of Rome would profit by greater economic opportunity. A “good” Roman who worshiped the emperor would have more opportunity in society as opposed to those odd Christians who shunned cultural norms. Christians would become outcasts who were considered “persona non grata” in the business world. Christians would be shunned from the important relationships of trade where money was made. This is likely the issue of Revelation 13:16-17.

This reality is true even today. In Uzbekistan for instance, there is a term for Uzbeks who choose to follow the ways of Christianity, which is considered outside of the Uzbek culture. The term is, sotgan. It is a derogatory label cast upon those Uzbeks who follow the Christian religion taught by “outsiders.” Sotgans lose their ability to buy and sell because no one wants to do business with them. Becoming a Christian is not socially accepted, by and large, and puts a great financial strain on Christians. In many countries, Christians are the poorest people in the town because no one wants to do business with them. This relational market economy is played out all the time. Even here in the U.S. it is common for people to want to do business with those whom they share some ideals and have some connection. This economic phenomenon is greatly increased in cultures with more familial and community cohesion.

Thus, those who did not worship the emperor in Rome became outcasts and were not able to buy and sell using the Emperor’s “mark” (charagma), and nor would they want to. By this, early Christians would reject the emperor and his money. The Christian communities would thus end up sticking very close together and trading with each other.

If this issue is playing a role in the mark of the beast, it is a window into the social treatment of believers who abstained from pagan and emperor worship in that society.

So death did not involve taking or not taking the mark. Death was handed only to those who did not worship the image. We have an OT example when Nebuchadnezzar also built an image and forced his subjects to worship the beast. The 3 who refused were not allowed to die, because God saved them, even in death.

Apply that to Revelation. Those who worship the image recieved a literal mark by God to show to all, even Satan, that they rejected God and worshipped Satan, the FP, and the beast. The image was given life, a beast.
first thing saying literal mark is an assertion which i clearly made clear i disagree with Marks are shown throughout the bible spiritually
In Deuteronomy 6:8 and Deuteronomy 11:18, God tells Israel that his laws are to be upon their hearts, that they are to bind them on their hands and foreheads. Although many Jews created phylacteries to be tied around their heads, the meaning of the command was clear to the Jews. God’s law was to be the defining factor of their life; their life was to be “marked” by God’s law. What they believed, (heads) and what they did (hands), both needed be completely formed by the law of God. The Jews carried this idea forward and was no doubt in the mind of the reader of Revelation, particularly those of Jewish descent.
This idea was captured in the apocalyptic sections of Ezekiel. This Ezekiel vision may have even set the foundational idea for how the “mark” was used in Revelation. In Ezekiel 9, the prophet sees a christophony (appearance of Jesus in the Old Testament), and Jesus is judging the idolatries of the nation of Israel. As the people were worshiping other gods and idols, an image of a man in linen appears. This man is holding a writing kit, and God calls out to him to go throughout the city and put a mark on the foreheads of those who were grieving at all the idolatry going on around them. Those without the mark were killed in the vision. Ezekiel was terrified by this vision because so many were killed by the wrath of God that he feared there would not be a remnant of Israel left.
In the New Testament, this idea of being marked by God with a kind of seal declaring one’s stance or identity was used in reference to the Holy Spirit. In Ephesians 1:13, it reads, “When you believed you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession, to the praise of his glory.” This passage points the Christians in Ephesus toward the final end of redemption and inheritance. This makes it eschatological (things dealing with the end times) in nature. As Paul describes the “end times” condition of believers, he offers security in fact that they have been marked with a seal. The seal is the Holy Spirit of God. This is not a literal marking. The Holy Spirit marks a person’s new identity in Christ. With this indwelling of the Spirit, worship becomes instinctive as the Spirit inside of him cries out with groans that words cannot express (Romans 8).
In Hebrews 10:16, the author offers a revision of the Deuteronomy teaching for those in Christ, explaining to them that, “Jesus will write his laws upon their hearts.” It’s a symbolic way of saying that our deepest commitments are to the Lord which inevitably create a difference from the world. Our beliefs and our life’s behavior set us apart from those whose lives are marked by the evil of this world, a world that will always do one of two things, either persecute the believer, or lure in the believer. The believers to which Hebrews is referring chose for their lives to be marked by the gospel, not by the world, and this is the group that’s going to be saved from the wrath of God.
The word of God talks about being marked by God and being marked by the world. The nature of these marks are issues of the heart denoting one’s identity and direction in life.
So to force worship, Satan denied one economic stability. Satan nor any human can place the mark. Only God does. Now to avoid the mark one chooses to have their head removed. Because at this point, that is the only way to prevent one's heart from accidentally worshipping this government. It is a proactive choice, just like the 3 Hebrews proactively decided to be thrown into the fire, which incidentally killed those people who threw them in. I always questioned, why did they not just walk into the furnace instead of being thrown.
of course the ones that follow the beast will take the mark which is free will of worship of him if your not sealed by God you have the mark and interesting i mean hilarious thing you said by accidental worship of government because im pretty sure the antichrist would be revealed so everyone would know who it is and interesting way see how your belief already makes no sense.
The choice between receiving the mark and preventing the mark is portrayed as a step of faith. Revelation 20:4

"those who had been beheaded for testifying about Yeshua and proclaiming the Word of God"

Many interpret the beheading as a result. The beheading was the act of faith, not knowing the outcome other than it was the only way to avoid the mark. Because in chapter 13, death was from not worshipping. Yet Revelation 20 states beheading was the Testament of faith. It does not say:

"those who had been beheaded for not worshipping the FP, Satan, or the beast."
this verse is used for obvious for the christians who were went to preach to the lost souls but they were beheaded for such an action obviously remember in one point in time the government would start killing and forcing christians to submit to the government.
The three Hebrews choose the fire as a step of faith, instead of worshipping. During those 42 months when Satan is in charge many may be killed for not worshipping, but only those who take the step of faith and have their head cut off to prevent God from giving them the mark, will be resurrected to reign in the Millennium. Those who have the mark are removed from the Lamb's book of life for ever. They go into the Lake of Fire, as their choice was made while living and permanent. The mark is directly related to how God perceives them, and can only be given by God. If one's name is literally in a literal Lamb's book of life, and the lake of fire is literal, and God is literally keeping a record of who is who, and people in the Lamb's book of life literally live forever, then the mark is literal
i dont believe eternal chastisement traditional interpretation is that the "lake of fire" and the "second death" are symbolic of eternal pain, pain of loss and perhaps pain of the senses, as punishment for wickedness. Im orthodox so i dont hold to those beliefs and of course God keeps accord but you should not make an assertion from things not good for discussion and the conclusion is a hilarious conclusion
God bless though.
 
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Douggg

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In biblical language, the primary beast of Revelation is also known as the Antichrist (see 1 John 2:18-19).
It is a misnomer to call the person the Antichrist after he becomes the beast.

_____________________________________________________

The time line is...

Being the little horn is for the time the person is the leader of the EU.

then...

Being the Antichrist is for the time the person is the King of Israel, coming in his own name.

then...

Being the beast is for the time the person is the dictator of the EU.
 
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dóxatotheó

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It is a misnomer to call the person the Antichrist after he becomes the beast.

_____________________________________________________

The time line is...

Being the little horn is for the time the person is the leader of the EU.

then...

Being the Antichrist is for the time the person is the King of Israel.

then...

Being the beast is for the time the person is the dictator of the EU.
what type of interpretation you got of the holy scriptures
 
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Douggg

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what type of interpretation you got of the holy scriptures

upload_2021-5-30_18-43-23.jpeg
 
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Timtofly

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The man in the cemetery that Jesus freed him of the multitude of uncleaned spirits that possessed him was one human.

It is not 4 humans. The snake in the garden was a literal beast - not a human.
You listed 4 entities. Call them what you want, still 4.
 
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