Creationism/Creation Science... approved by Arkansas house

[MIDutch]

Out of curiosity - why do you say that? We are talking about the long running evolution experiment that started in 1988. It has been observed "in real life".

Are you still debating the Drosophila melanogaster experiment?

You do realize it was an experiment learning about DNA, right? You do realize it was never meant to show "fruit fly to giraffe" evolution, right?

 

[MIDutch]

Is it your claim that something in the constitution forbids the study of young-life geochronometers and would only allow the study of old-life geochronometers.

If there were any objective, scientific evidence for this, and if it were not just a claim by one particular (minority) sect of one particular religion based solely and completely on their religious text, then it probably wouldn't be banned by the constitutional seperation of church and state.

Unfortunately for creationists, multiple legal rulingss have consistently determined that creationism is a religious dogma that would infringe on the religious freedoms of other people if imposed as a state mandate.

Of course, from my experience interacting with creationists, they wouldn't care if the Hindus, Buddhists, Confucianists, Daoists, Shinto, Sikhs, Pagans, Wicca, agnostics, atheists, etc. were "put in their place" so to speak, and would probably relish the chance to do so.

 

[BobRyan]

If there were any objective, scientific evidence for this

That part of your statement relates to actual "science" - check the data, doing the experiments, making the observations to "see IF".

Now lets contrast that with just bias

if it were not just a claim by one particular (minority) sect

Hence the details my OP.

hint: the inflation theory of the cosmos was at one point "the minority claim" and "steady state" was the accepted majority view. Arguments about "majority vs minority" are not science arguments. Science has to do with observations in nature.

 

[MIDutch]

If you are asking me come up with "a story" about massive saltations happening to produce the much-imagined macro-evolution result - you are asking the wrong guy. I am a creationist

You could always go with the answer creationists usually give for everything ... and then magic happened.

 

[MIDutch]

Hence the details my OP.

hint: the inflation theory of the cosmos was at one point "the minority claim" and "steady state" was the accepted majority view.

Which is exactly how science is supposed to work. New evidence (hint: the technology that confirmed the expansion of the universe didn't exist in Galileo's time) requires a rethink of the scientific understanding and may require a rework or an abandonment of prevailing hypothesies and theories for hypothesies and theories which better explain the evidence.

As opposed to creationism, which is based solely on a religious text and hasn't really changed since it was written a few hundred (or thousand) years after the supposed events.

 

[BobRyan]

You could always go with the answer creationists usually give

I do that all the time... it is this; " I prefer actual facts when it comes to science -- not 'belief in evolutionism'"

 

[BobRyan]

Which is exactly how science is supposed to work. New evidence (hint: the technology that confirmed the expansion of the universe didn't exist in Galileo's time) requires a rethink of the scientific understanding .

And has nothing to do with "how many people know about some fact" -- just the testing of the fact, the observations... rather than "who said it and how many of those people are there"

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
Out of curiosity - why do you say that? We are talking about the long running evolution experiment that started in 1988. It has been observed "in real life".

Are you still debating the Drosophila melanogaster experiment?

When was "Drosophila melanogaster experiment" ever described as the "long term evolution experiment"???



E. coli long-term evolution experiment - Wikipedia.

“The E. coli long-term evolution experiment (LTEE) is an ongoing study in experimental evolution led by Richard Lenski that has been tracking genetic changes in 12 initially identical populations of asexual Escherichia coli bacteria since 24 February 1988.[2] The populations reached the milestone of 50,000 generations in February 2010.[3] Lenski performed the 10,000th transfer of the experiment on March 13, 2017.[4] The populations reached 73,500 generations in early 2020, shortly before being frozen because of the COVID-19 pandemic.[5][6]”

 

[Whyayeman]

In the public schools, one can teach about religion

Thank you for that. The situation in the UK is the mirror of this. The schools must show there is time devoted to non-denominational religion. The timetable shows it - but not what actually happens, which is partly 'about religion' and partly various social educational projects.

 

[Whyayeman]

Sorry not to have made it clear that I was referring to the direct observation of millions of years of existence for living things. I hope the rest of that post is clearer now.

Experimental work on evolution has been done, not the DNA research on fruit flies, but the work of Richard Lenski, who spent 20 years maintaining cultures of E. coli to see how they evolve. His paper describes how one of his populations evolved the ability to metabolise citrate, something E. coli cannot do. (I mistakenly referred to acetic acid but have looked it up.) This demonstrated that an evolution of E. coli had taken place since E. coli cannot metabolise citrate.

A group of creationists tried to criticise the science underlying his work but got nowhere. They weren't scientists and could not possibly peer review the paper.

 

[MIDutch]

I do that all the time... it is this; " I prefer actual facts when it comes to science -- not 'belief in evolutionism'"

And then you ignore the vast amount of facts, evidence, data, observations, research, etc. in support of the Theory of Evolution.

And again, it's not about "belief".

 

[MIDutch]

When was "Drosophila melanogaster experiment" ever described as the "long term evolution experiment"???

My apologies. My mistake.

 

[ThatRobGuy]

There's already court precedent that would likely strike that down if it got sent up the chain to a higher court.

Some school districts had tried in the past to make creationism as part of the curriculum by re-branding as "intelligent design"

A federal court (under a Bush appointed judge) shot it down - despite being a conservative and appointed by a conservative president.

Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District - Wikipedia

There's already been a supreme court decision on a similar case, stating that teaching creationism fails to pass "The Lemon Test"
Edwards v. Aguillard - Wikipedia

Which Justice Brennan quantified with:

1. The government's action must have a legitimate secular purpose;
2. The government's action must not have the primary effect of either advancing or inhibiting religion; and
3. The government's action must not result in an "excessive entanglement" of the government and religion.

 

[HARK!]

In the public schools, one can teach about religion, as in history or social science. But religious instruction is forbidden*.

In my Astrology class they didn't teach about the religion; unless you consider teaching the religion to be teaching about the religion.

 

[essentialsaltes]

In my Astrology class they didn't teach about the religion; unless you consider teaching the religion to be teaching about the religion.

Astrology is not a religion. It is a pseudoscience. Neither religion nor pseudoscience should be taught in public schools.

 

[durangodawood]

In my Astrology class they didn't teach about the religion; unless you consider teaching the religion to be teaching about the religion.

What sort of school did you attend that had an astrology class?

 

[Nithavela]

Well, I'm not a geneticist, but I do know they've done millions of experiments with fruit flies. They've tinkered with the genes of fruit flies until they produced wingless fruit flies, blind fruit flies, headless fruit flies, fruit flies with various numbers of legs, fruit flies with two sets of wings, fruit flies that were all colors of the rainbow.....but at the end of the day, they were all still fruit flies.

Now, when they can change a fruit fly into a giraffe---or even a cicada, let me know. Until then, evolution is merely a 170 year-old story that's quite frankly beginning to show its age. The same thing can be said for Lyellian uniformitarianism; in the face of newer theories, Lyell's ideas are actually quite quaint.

The day "they" change a fruit fly into a giraffe is the day creationists become evolutionists and evolutionists become creationists.

 

[HARK!]

What sort of school did you attend that had an astrology class?

Public school, big Liberal city, 7th grade, mid '70's.

This was a dedicated course on Astrology.

 

[durangodawood]

Public school, big Liberal city, 7th grade, mid '70's.

This was a dedicated course on Astrology.

Ahh the 70's. You should have said so!

 

[HARK!]

Ahh the 70's. You should have said so!

Interestingly, in the same school system just a couple of years later, I was reading my Bible in my HS homeroom class (a free period) The teacher walked up to me and told me to close it. I closed it; and I put it on my desk. He then told me to put it out of sight where no one can see it. I put it on the rack under my chair, with some of my other books. He then said, "no, put that in your duffel bag; where no one can see it." I did that. Then he said, "I don't want to see that here again."

Had I known what I know now; I would have found support to take this to the courts.