Creationism/Creation Science... approved by Arkansas house

[stevil]

But prokaryotes such as bacteria do not turn into something higher up the ladder of taxonomy from prokaryote to eukaryote.

I've done a quick research on this. I am a layman, so I am not speaking for science, just my layman findings on a quick search.

The origins of life on Earth.
It is likely that eukaryotic cells, of which humans are made, evolved from bacteria about two billion years ago. One theory is that eukaryotic cells evolved via a symbiotic relationship between two independent prokaryotic bacteria. A single bacterium was engulfed by another one, and the smaller cell continued to exist inside the other, which was beneficial to both.

My take on the above is that, scientists don't know how eukaryotic cells evolved from prokaryotic cells. They have some unproven ideas and don't see the problem as insurmountable to the theory of evolution.

You, on the other hand are claiming that "prokaryotes such as bacteria do not turn into something higher up the ladder of taxonomy from prokaryote to eukaryote."
I'm not sure what you are basing this claim off. How do you know this is impossible?

Do you have an alternative mechanism for how eukaryotic cells came to be?
What evidence do you have in support of this alternative?

 

[stevil]

Still a bacterium, but a new bacterium - hitherto unknown to man.

Which is exactly as evolution expects.
A dog will not produce a cat, a bacterium will not produce a cactus.
Decent with modification is a really, really slow process. Each parent is the same species as their offspring. There is no discrete demarcation between lineal species.

Those proposing this as a criticism of evolution are not understanding evolution, they are knocking down a strawman that noone believes in.
But when we trying to correct them, they won't listen, they keep insisting on their strawman.

 

[Aryeh Jay]

It is good to see Arkansas focusing on what is important instead of teaching how to balance a check book or calculate a mortgage. Science is a non subject and won't lead to salvation. It is time Arkansas replaces Mississippi as the leader of education.

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

Sounds strange to me to vote about something like this.

Surely you can teach the prominent theories in your society without a vote about it?

I must be misunderstanding something.

What I'd expect to see is a theory explained to the student. Then I'd have figured a fair criticism of the theory or something like that.?

 

[Whyayeman]

I don't much mind Creationism being taught in schools as part of a religious education syllabus. The objection I have is that Creationism is sometimes set up as an alternative scientific explanation for evolution.

Evolution is now an accepted principle in science. Like all scientific hypotheses it is provisional. It offers the best explanation available for many observed phenomena. It does not have good answers for every problem in biology but it does offer insights into how species have developed from ancestral species.

I do not think that Creationism offers any rational explanation for the presence of identical structures found in the DNA of both carrots and elephants, or in both earthworms and humans. I am open to offers here.

 

[JMV]

This world has and always will say "i dont know, but by our own wisdom we will." Truth is self evident and will be put on open display in a very terrible way for the scoffers, yet remember all you self appointed christians that the atheist shall have it far better than you, for when they seek forgiveness they shall surely find it. For as it is written, it is time for judgment to begin with God's household; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God?


For thus says the Lord:

7/1/11 From The Lord, Our God and Savior
The Word of The Lord Spoken to Timothy
For All Those Who Have Ears to Hear

"Therefore hear the Word of The Lord, O peoples of the earth, and gain wisdom: Are not the mountains risen up at the Word of My mouth? Do not the highest peaks break through the clouds at My command? Are not the depths carved out by My knowledge, and the seas filled according to My will? Who causes the clouds to gather together and bring forth rain? Who calls forth the wind from its place and stirs up the hurricane? Who speaks to the horrible mountain, causing it to burst forth, to spew its fervent heat? It is I who has done it, The One who formed it, The One who causes to be! My children, look upon the stars, upon the whole of the heavens, consider the vastness thereof, and know: YAH has spoken it into being, YAHUWAH caused it to be!
Behold, I have spread out life like a blanket, and caused it to multiply in all the earth; life fills every corner! And still mankind seeks out its beginnings and longs to know its source, asking in vain, “Where did I come from, and why are we here? From what source did all this life come, and how did it get here? What is the beginning, and how will it end?”
Blind and hard-hearted generation, deceived and ignorant peoples, foolish children, LIFE HAS A NAME! The Beginning and The End has walked among you! The Source and The Reason is here, and shall also come in great power and glory! From Him did you come forth, and to Him must you return, all you, His beloved. Behold, His names are many and wonderful![1] That which He is has no end, for as I AM so also is He! The Father and The Son are one, and our name, one - YAHUSHUA-YAHUWAH!


In the beginning was The Word, and The Word
Was with God, and The Word was God;
The same was in the beginning with God...

Through Him all things came into being,
And nothing in all creation was made apart from Him...

In Him was life, and The Life was the light of men;
The Light shines in the darkness,
And the darkness shall not overcome it...

And behold, The Word became flesh...

Immanu El!"

Indeed this world has been forced to admit it long ago; the universe had a beginning and was created. So man in his never ending prideful quest attempts to lay hold of the wisdom of the world, by it explaining the origin of Life:

4/14/06 From The Lord, Our God and Savior - The Word of The Lord Spoken to Timothy, For All Those Who Have Ears to Hear

"Yet men continue to seek out wisdom, yet never find it; they search for knowledge, yet it remains forever outside their grasp... For apart from Me there is no knowledge, apart from Me all understanding passes away. For I AM HE, The Only Fountain from which flows all wisdom and knowledge, The Source of all things."

~

"So then all who receive of Me grow wise,
Receiving of that which is pure,
Learning to walk in that which is eternal...

As one being led along a mountain stream of living waters,
Filled with a fervent desire to seek out its source;
Drinking from it along the way,
Gaining strength in weakness...

Leaving all behind in their holy pursuit.


Yet with the ungodly, it is not so. For the ungodly man proclaims the wisdom of the world, seeking always to lay hold on it, to make it his own. Thus he shall indeed gain the world, yet shall be left wanting, when all he has built up crumbles before his eyes. For all who remain married to this world shall surely share in its end. For the wisdom of man is like him - Grass of the field, here today and tomorrow thrown into the fire.
And thus shall the wisdom and glory of man be destroyed together, along with that which had sprung up from beneath - Lies, ever-growing deceptions, leading him away from The Truth and The Life. For like lost sheep all have gone astray; there are none who know, not one who truly understands... They run to and fro in all the earth, neither seeing or believing, grasping always at particles of dust blowing in the wind; worldly men sinking into the mire of their own ways, meet for death; a whole generation of dying children suffocating in the ever-shifting sands of religion, philosophy and science, falsely called truth and wisdom, built upon the corrupt knowledge of man and the evil one, all of which shall burn in the Day."

Atheists and christians alike, who, and not what, is the answer you're looking for. He the beginning and the end who walked among us in the flesh, Immanu El! YAHUSHUA-YAHUWAH:

"That which is revealed to one may not yet be revealed to another. And those who have seen, have seen, yet most have only understood dimly. Therefore trust is required, and comes before understanding, for understanding can only come from Me... For I am The Only Fountain, The Only Knowledge in which is life.
Beloved, when one loses sight of Me or turns away, understanding darkens. Yet one who keeps Me in front of them, coming to Me at all times and in every season, in them understanding brightens and they will have peace. For they abide in Me, and rest in the knowing that all things are held within My understanding, and are given and received according to the good pleasure of My will.

And indeed, this is sufficient for them,

For they had first sought after
The Kingdom of God and His righteousness...

By which much revelation was added to them
According to the Spirit which I have
Poured out for them...


Says The Lord YahuShua."

Fear of the Lord is indeed the beginning of wisdom! Blessed are those who say i dont know, can you teach me Lord. Yea:

"Blessed are those who answer, “Yes, Lord”,
For their faith is revealed...

Blessed are those who pray, “Your will be done, Lord”,
For they have great trust...

Blessed are those who say, “Amen, Lord”,
At all times and in every season,
For they have understood...

Blessed are those who know,
I AM WHO I AM;
They shall have peace..."

 

[Whyayeman]

Yet men continue to seek out wisdom, yet never find it; they search for knowledge, yet it remains forever outside their grasp

Not entirely. We know quite a lot that was not revealed to Timothy.

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

I don't much mind Creationism being taught in schools as part of a religious education syllabus. The objection I have is that Creationism is sometimes set up as an alternative scientific explanation for evolution.

Probably makes sense for some schools to lay out exactly what creationism is and why it is not included as an alternative scientific explanation.

You can't do this with every little belief people have, but this is a big one that affects a lot of people.

 

[Whyayeman]

In the UK religious education is compulsory, so such a strategy is possible; in fact so few teachers in state schools and religiously founded (church) schools are willing to undertake RE that the letter of the law is regularly interpreted very widely.

My understanding is that the American Constitution forbids formal religious content in schools. It occurs to me that sneaking Creationism into the science curriculum is a stratagem to bypass the law. Is that cynical?

 

[Confused-by-christianity]

In the UK religious education is compulsory, so such a strategy is possible; in fact so few teachers in state schools and religiously founded (church) schools are willing to undertake RE that the letter of the law is regularly interpreted very widely.

My understanding is that the American Constitution forbids formal religious content in schools. It occurs to me that sneaking Creationism into the science curriculum is a stratagem to bypass the law. Is that cynical?

It's not unfairly cynical if the American constitution really does forbid religious education.

I've heard that over there, people can get in trouble for practicing their religion by praying or for having bible studies etc etc.

It's hard to believe this be the case, but also, it's hard to know what the truth is since things like this are usually so politically loaded. I can definately believe a load of christians would make an undue fuss (lie) over something to get a point across or to win a fight over something. So it's hard to believe them. On the otherhand - when I lived in america, it didn't strike me as a very "free" country by the definitions I would have used - so it is sort of believable.

 

[MIDutch]

It's hard to believe this be the case, but also, it's hard to know what the truth is since things like this are usually so politically loaded. I can definately believe a load of christians would make an undue fuss (lie) over something to get a point across or to win a fight over something. So it's hard to believe them. On the otherhand - when I lived in america, it didn't strike me as a very "free" country by the definitions I would have used - so it is sort of believable.

Creationists have been *bearing false witness* against the Theory of Evolution, evolution, biology, science, scientists, reality, etc. for over 150 years. Actually, they've been doing it all the way back to when geologists started publishing their research and evidence back in the 1700's demonstrating that the Noachian flood never happened. The history of geology is a really good example of science shaking off the shackles of religious dogma.

While most Christians accept the science and have no issues comporting science and their religion, creationists think that any and all evidence, research, science, etc. that contradicts their "literal and inerrant" interpretation of the Bible invalidates their entire religion.

The creationist argument (as silly as it is) is if Eve wasn't a real person who was tricked into eating a weird fruit by Ha'satan pretending to be a snake ... then there is no "salvation" in Jesus's death on the cross.

Unfortunately, the majority of those people live here in the United States and they are a robust and constant political power so they do everything they can to dumb down the students here in the US so that their church attendance numbers don't go down. Luckily, that's not totally working out for them.

 

[MIDutch]

My understanding is that the American Constitution forbids formal religious content in schools. It occurs to me that sneaking Creationism into the science curriculum is a stratagem to bypass the law. Is that cynical?

That actually is a thing. Check out the Wedge Document:

The Wedge Document | National Center for Science Education

From the document:

Governing Goals

• To defeat scientific materialism and its destructive moral, cultural and political legacies.
• To replace materialistic explanations with the theistic understanding that nature and human beings are created by God.

Five Year Goals

• To see intelligent design theory as an accepted alternative in the sciences and scientific research being done from the perspective of design theory.
• To see the beginning of the influence of design theory in spheres other than natural science.
• To see major new debates in education, life issues, legal and personal responsibility pushed to the front of the national agenda.

Laughably, and unsurprisngly, this turned out to be merely a pipe dream of it's creators since they were never able to produce anything worthy of being called scientific research. The entire organization basically just faded away into being the butt of jokes:

"Hey, remember the Discovery Institute? The "scientific research" organization that was going to upend the entire scientific world? They had this big building in Seattle that they were going to fill with scientists and laboratories that were going to finally prove the scientific truth in the Bible. What ever happened to those guys?"
"They never had many scientist, two or three, and their "laboratories" were completely empty. I hear their "global headquarters" is an apartment building now."

 

[Whyayeman]

Thank you for this. I will be giving it some attention.

It is a voluntary organisation, I see. What is the constitutional position about teaching religion in schools, anybody? Is the National Center for Science Education sailing close to the wind in this respect?

 

[BobRyan]

I've done a quick research on this. I am a layman, so I am not speaking for science, just my layman findings on a quick search.

The origins of life on Earth.
It is likely that eukaryotic cells, of which humans are made, evolved from bacteria about two billion years ago. One theory is that eukaryotic cells evolved via a symbiotic relationship between two independent prokaryotic bacteria. A single bacterium was engulfed by another one, and the smaller cell continued to exist inside the other, which was beneficial to both.

You, on the other hand are claiming that "prokaryotes such as bacteria do not turn into something higher up the ladder of taxonomy from prokaryote to eukaryote."

True - and we can "watch them not do that" all day long.

Do you have an alternative mechanism for how eukaryotic cells came to be?
What evidence do you have in support of this alternative?

1. I am a creationist so of course I hold to a competing doctrine on origins - to the doctrine on origins found in certain forms of "evolution".
2. I maintain that observations in real life show that prokaryotes remain prokaryotes even over 75000 (or 40 million) generations of observation.

BTW -- thanks to whoever reminded us of this -- 20 - 60 min per generation for bacteria

Bacterial Growth.

 

[Whyayeman]

I maintain that even over 75000 (or 40 million) generations of observation.

Observations 'in real life' do not extend back over all those millions of generations. So, yes there are organisms currently in existence that are unchanged from their ancient primaeval ancestors so far as we can tell from such evidence as there is.

Better to have said: 'Observations in real life show that some prokaryotes remain prokaryotes ...' Nobody has observed them all!

Evolutionary science posits that there are descendants that have evolved into something else. There is evidence for this. For example, the fossil record strongly suggests that some forms of life appeared much later than others; the inference here is that they evolved. (Creationism does not really address this.)

 

[BobRyan]

Observations 'in real life' do not extend back over all those millions of generations.

Out of curiosity - why do you say that? We are talking about the long running evolution experiment that started in 1988. It has been observed "in real life".

 

[JMV]

Out of curiosity - why do you say that? We are talking about the long running evolution experiment that started in 1988. It has been observed "in real life".

Micro evolution yes, macro evolution i ask you the same question a scientist asked: when you have speciation changes? Organs changing? When you have to have concerted lines of evolution, all happening in the same place and same time. Not just one line, concerted lines. All at the same place and in the same environment? Dont wave by and say "this enzyme does that." Get down in the details where molecules are built concerning macro evolution.

 

[essentialsaltes]

What is the constitutional position about teaching religion in schools, anybody?

In the public schools, one can teach about religion, as in history or social science. But religious instruction is forbidden*.

In science classes, science is to be taught. The legal status is that 'creationism' and Intelligent Design cannot be taught as science in science class. However, teachers in very religious areas often do so anyway, since nobody complains. Or at the very least, they often downplay the evolution content.

[*There are a few weird asterisks, such as some states have 'released time' programs where during the school day, students can be released for religious instruction, but it must happen off-campus and without public funds. Frog-faced heathen children just have to stay locked up in school, since it's part of the school day.]

 

[BobRyan]

Micro evolution yes, macro evolution i ask you the same question a scientist asked: when you have speciation changes? Organs changing? When you have to have concerted lines of evolution, all happening in the same place and same time. Not just one line, concerted lines. All at the same place and in the same environment? Dont wave by and say "this enzyme does that." Get down in the details where molecules are built concerning macro evolution.

If you are asking me come up with "a story" about massive saltations happening to produce the much-imagined macro-evolution result - you are asking the wrong guy. I am a creationist

 

[BobRyan]

Thank you for this. I will be giving it some attention.

It is a voluntary organisation, I see. What is the constitutional position about teaching religion in schools, anybody? Is the National Center for Science Education sailing close to the wind in this respect?

In the OP I talk about this for the "creation science" part of what would be valid in the science class.
1. young earth / young life - geochronometers not just the long life ones
2. attributes demonstrating design over random event

Is it your claim that something in the constitution forbids the study of young-life geochronometers and would only allow the study of old-life geochronometers.

Is it your claim that something in the constitution forbids the study of intelligence, design, and evidence that a "person" or an "intelligence" did something vs "a falling rock did this"?