Daniel's 70 Weeks Correctly Explained At Last

[Douggg]

Hailed as Messiah by whom, though?

Were the disciples in that crowd?

There were many different groups in ancient Jerusalem at that time.....and they all believed different things about Jesus and what the purpose of the Messiah actually was....and what it would look like for Israel to be redeemed or restored at that point (and from what or who).

Jesus's followers for sure. But also many others as well, because when the pharisees plotted to have Jesus arrested they bribed Judas to inform them when he was alone, in fear of what the crowds would do.

 

[mkgal1]

Jesus's followers for sure.

Show me where Scripture tells us they were there (I've actually not really studied that aspect of that event).

But there were different kinds of "Jesus followers" up until the Cross (then many gave up).

Quoting N.T. Wright:
The first two elements of Jesus's perfect storm are comparatively easy to describe; the third less so, but all-important if we are to understand both the original meaning of Palm Sunday and the meanings that it might have for us as we draw nearer to the cross in this holiest of weeks.

Rome
To begin with, the storm sweeping in from the west. The new social, political and (not least) military reality of the day, the new superpower - Rome. Rome had been steadily increasing in power and prominence over the previous centuries. Until thirty years before the birth of Jesus of Nazareth, Rome had been a republic. But with Julius Caesar all that changed. His ambition, and then his assassination, threw Rome into a long, bloody civil war, from which Caesar's adopted son, Octavian, emerged as the winner.

Octavian took the title "Augustus," which meant "majestic" or "worthy of honour." He declared that his adopted father, Julius, had become divine - this meant that he, Augustus Octavian Caesar, was now officially "son of god" or "son of the divine Julius." The word went around the world which Rome was quickly conquering: Good news! We have an emperor! The Son of God has become King of the world!

After Augustus's death, he too was divinized, and his successor, Tiberius, took the same titles. I have on my desk a coin from the reign of Tiberius (there are plenty of them, readily available). On the front, around Tiberius's portrait, it says, "Tiberius Caesar, son of the Divine Augustus." On the back is Tiberius portrayed, and described, as "chief priest." It was a coin like this that they showed to Jesus of Nazareth, not long after he had ridden into Jerusalem, when they asked him whether or not they should pay tribute to Caesar. "Son of God"? "High priest"? He was in the eye of the storm.

Why was Rome interested in the Middle East? For surprisingly familiar reasons, in fact. Rome needed the Middle East like today's Western powers need it: for raw material. Today it's oil; then it was grain. Rome itself was grossly over-populated and grain shipments from Egypt were vital. In a region just as unstable in the first century as it is today, the job of a Roman governor was to administer justice, collect the taxes, and keep the peace - and particularly to suppress unrest.

That was the gale: the first element in the perfect storm at whose centre Jesus of Nazareth found himself.

Israel
The second element in Jesus's perfect storm, the overheated high-pressure system, is the story of Israel as Jesus's contemporaries perceived it and believed themselves to be living in it.

As far back as we can trace their ancient scriptures, the Jewish people had believed that their story was going somewhere, that it had an appointed goal. Despite many setbacks and disappointments, their god would make sure they reached the goal at last. The stories they told were not simply stories of small beginnings, sad times at present, and glorious days to come. They were more specific, more complex, dense with detail and heavy with hope.

Their theme came to full flower in the story of the Exodus, when Moses had led the Israelites out of slavery in Egypt, across the Red Sea and through the desert to their Promised Land. The Jews lived on the hope that it would happen again. The tyrants would do their worst, and God would deliver them.

Understand the Exodus and you understand a good deal about Judaism - and about Jesus. Jesus chose Passover, the great national Exodus-festival, to make his crucial move. The long story of Israel must finally confront the long story of Rome. This is no time to be out on the sea in an open boat. Or riding into Jerusalem on a donkey.

The western wind meets the high-pressure system. But what about the hurricane?

God
The Jewish story always contained one highly unpredictable element - namely, God himself. God remained free and sovereign. Again and again in the past, the way that Israel had told its own story was quite different from the way God was planning things. Jesus believed that was happening again now.

God had promised to come back, to return to his people in power and glory, to establish his kingdom on earth as in heaven. The Jewish people always hoped that this would simply underwrite their national aspirations - he was, after all, their God. But the prophets, up to and including John the Baptist, had always warned that God's coming in power and in person would be entirely on his own terms, with his own purpose - and that his own people would be as much under judgment as anyone if their aspirations didn't coincide with God's.

Jesus believed that as he came to Jerusalem he was embodying, incarnating, the return of Israel's God to his people, in power and glory (see Zechariah 9:9-17). But it was a different kind of power, a different kind of glory.

Recall that moment in Jesus Christ Superstar - produced when Tim Rice was still writing shrewd, sharp lyrics and Andrew Lloyd Webber was still writing interesting music - when Jesus is approaching Jerusalem and Simon the Zealot urges him to mount a proper revolution. "You'll get the power and the glory," he says, "forever and ever and ever." But Jesus turns and sings those haunting lines: "Neither you, Simon, nor the fifty thousand; nor the Romans, nor the Jews; nor Judas, nor the Twelve, nor the priests, nor the scribes, nor doomed Jerusalem itself - understand what power is! Understand what glory is! Understand at all."

He then continues with the warning of what was going to happen to Jerusalem, because, as he says, "You didn't recognise the time of your visitation by God." This is the moment, and you were looking the other way. Your dreams of national liberation, leading you into head-on confrontation with Rome, were not God's dreams. God called Israel so that through Israel he might redeem the world; but Israel itself needs redeeming as well.

Hence God comes to Israel riding on a donkey, in fulfilment of Zechariah's prophecy of the coming peaceful kingdom, announcing judgment on the system and the city that have turned their vocation in upon themselves, and going off to take the weight of the world's evil and hostility onto himself, so that by dying under it he might exhaust its power.

Throughout his public career, Jesus had been embodying the rescuing, redeeming love of Israel's God, and Israel's own capital city and leaders couldn't see it. The divine hurricane sweeps in from the ocean, and to accomplish its purpose it must meet, head on, the cruel western wind of pagan empire and the high-pressure system of national aspiration.

Jesus seizes the moment, the Passover-moment, the Exodus-moment, not least because these, too, speak of the sovereign freedom and presence of God as much over his rebellious and uncomprehending people as over the tyranny of Egypt.
​

 

[Douggg]

Again, the focus in Daniel 8:21 is not on the vision that Gabriel explained to Daniel before (which we know is recorded in Daniel 8), it's on the fact that it was Gabriel who was coming to Daniel again to explain another prophecy.

v21 established what vision Gabriel was referring to in v23. The vision of the little horn in the time of the end was a prophecy.

Who is the Prince of princes in Daniel 8:25 that the little horn stands up against, but is not broken by (human) hand?

25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

In verse 27, does Daniel indicate he understood the vision of the little horn and the 2300 days? Which he did not. And in Daniel 9, Gabriel gave further information on the vision and prophecy of the little horn.

26 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.

27 And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king's business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it.

The 2300 days fit within the 7 years begun by the little horn, who will be broken not by human hand, but by Jesus at Jesus's return.

The 2300 days fit within the "infallible" timeline framework in Ezekiel 39.

 

[Douggg]

Show me where Scripture tells us they were there (I've actually not really studied that aspect of that event).

In Luke 19, Jesus riding the donkey, a colt, was riding into Jerusalem, hailed as the messiah. His disciples were with him.

37 And when he was come nigh, even now at the descent of the mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works that they had seen;

38 Saying, Blessed be the King that cometh in the name of the Lord: peace in heaven, and glory in the highest.

39 And some of the Pharisees from among the multitude said unto him, Master, rebuke thy disciples.

40 And he answered and said unto them, I tell you that, if these should hold their peace, the stones would immediately cry out.

 

[mkgal1]

In Luke 19, Jesus riding the donkey, a colt, was riding into Jerusalem, hailed as the messiah. His disciples were with him.

37 And when he was come nigh, even now at the descent of the mount of Olives, the whole multitude of the disciples began to rejoice and praise God with a loud voice for all the mighty works that they had seen;
.

As I said.....there were many followers up until His arrest.....that's when many scattered and gave up on Jesus. Jesus was received by the crowd that day, but within four days the same crowd that hailed Him as their king would shout out, "Crucify Him." and claim they have no other god but Caesar (John 19:15).

I was asking about His close circle....Peter, James, His mother Mary, Mary Magdaline, etc. They don't seem to be there in the crowd?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

v21 established what vision Gabriel was referring to in v23.

No, it established who he was talking to, which was the same one who explained the vision to him previously. And that was Gabriel. The vision itself is not at all the focus of Daniel 9:21. Instead, the focus was on Gabriel himself who was identified as being the one who had given Daniel the vision from Daniel 8.

Who is the Prince of princes in Daniel 8:25 that the little horn stands up against, but is not broken by (human) hand?

25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

In verse 27, does Daniel indicate he understood the vision of the little horn and the 2300 days? Which he did not. And in Daniel 9, Gabriel gave further information on the vision and prophecy of the little horn.

26 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.

27 And I Daniel fainted, and was sick certain days; afterward I rose up, and did the king's business; and I was astonished at the vision, but none understood it.

That just means no one understood it back then at that time, not that no one would ever understand it without further explanation, as you are assuming.

 

[Douggg]

No, it established who he was talking to, which was the same one who explained the vision to him previously. And that was Gabriel.

Daniel did not understand in Daniel 8 the explanation how the vision fitted into the time of the end.

 

[Douggg]

As I said.....there were many followers up until His arrest.....that's when many scattered and gave up on Jesus. Jesus was received by the crowd that day, but within four days the same crowd that hailed Him as their king would shout out, "Crucify Him." and claim they have no other god but Caesar.

Where are you reading that it is the same crowd?

There was division regarding Jesus. Jesus after the resurrection appeared to his followers, but not to them who were against him.

 

[Douggg]

that no one would ever understand it without further explanation, as you are assuming.

You did not answer the question.

Who is the Prince of princes in Daniel 8:25 that the little horn stands up against, but is not broken by (human) hand?

 

[mkgal1]

Where are you reading that it is the same crowd?

There was division regarding Jesus. Jesus after the resurrection appeared to his followers, but not to them who were against him.

They were Jesus followers.....right?
This large crowd were following Jesus believing He was going to free them from oppression (as the OT prophecies promise) it's just that they didn't expect a humble King riding on a donkey and especially for their King to die on a Roman Cross (that was typically for the worst criminals - which are the polar opposite of a King).

BTW.....if a person begins the time of Jesus as Messiah at His triumphal entry (only four days before the Cross).....what about all His miracles? Are they insignificant? What about the raising of Lazarus recorded in John 11? Beginning the 70th week in 30AD not only messes up the chronology.....it completely disregards almost all of the ministry of Jesus......including this:

John 11 BSB

 

[mkgal1]

Daniel did not understand in Daniel 8 the explanation how the vision fitted into the time of the end.

Maybe because it wasn't time. The details didn't matter until "the time was right ". Remember the instruction to "seal the prophecy until the time of the end" and how "the end" was far off (in time)? I'm going by memory now.....I'll look for that specific reference.

Daniel 12:4
But you, Daniel, shut up these words and seal the book until the time of the end.​

If I have my timeline correct.... Daniel was about 600 years before John and Jesus. But Gabriel did come back......and spoke with John the baptizer's father (and with Mary - the mother of Jesus). My belief (along with the Nicene Church) is that's because of the prophetic timeline. It was....."the time of the end"....and John would be paving the way.....preparing the crowds....for their anticipated Messiah.

 

[Douggg]

If I have my timeline correct.... Daniel was about 600 years before John and Jesus. But Gabriel did come back......and spoke with John the baptizer's father (and with Mary - the mother of Jesus). My belief (along with the Nicene Church) is that's because of the prophetic timeline. It was....."the time of the end"....and John would be paving the way.....preparing the crowds....for their anticipated Messiah.

time of the end, latter days, latter years is Ezekiel 38-39.

Them who hold the Daniel 9 interpretation coming from the reformers - are in denial that Israel over there is same Israel of bible prophecy.

The question to me is how long is the denial going to continue? Until the EU is formed into ten leader form of government? Until the little horn person is over the ten leaders? Until Gog/Magog takes place? Until the temple is built and sacrifices started again?
Until the Antichrist makes the big speech from the temple mount, and having the law read to the nation?

The explain away syndrome of them who refuse to acknowledge that the vision in v21-23 is about the little horn time of the end prophecy and vision - is amazing to me.

 

[mkgal1]

time of the end, latter days, latter years is Ezekiel 38-39.

.....and Daniel 12:4

But you, Daniel, shut up these words and seal the book until the time of the end.


Luke 1
Gabriel Foretells John’s Birth

5In the time of Herod king of Judea there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly division of Abijah, and whose wife Elizabeth was a daughter of Aaron. 6Both of them were righteous in the sight of God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and decrees of the Lord. 7But they had no children, because Elizabeth was barren, and they were both well along in years.8One day while Zechariah’s division was on duty and he was serving as priest before God, 9he was chosen by lot, according to the custom of the priesthood, to enter the temple of the Lord and burn incense. 10And at the hour of the incense offering, the whole congregation was praying outside.11Just then an angel of the Lord appeared to Zechariah, standing at the right side of the altar of incense. 12When Zechariah saw him, he was startled and gripped with fear.13But the angel said to him, “Do not be afraid, Zechariah, because your prayer has been heard. Your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you are to give him the name John. 14He will be a joy and delight to you, and many will rejoice at his birth, 15for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He shall never take wine or strong drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from his mother’s womb. 16Many of the sons of Israel he will turn back to the Lord their God. 17And he will go on before the Lord in the spirit and power of Elijah, to turn the hearts of the fathers to their childrena and the disobedient to the wisdom of the righteous—to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.”18“How can I be sure of this?” Zechariah asked the angel. “I am an old man, and my wife is well along in years.”19“I am Gabriel,” replied the angel. “I stand in the presence of God, and I have been sent to speak to you and to bring you this good news.
*********
26/27 AD ------> 34 AD = 70th week (7 years) = "time of the end" of the 490 years beginning with the edict given in 457 BC​

 

[Timtofly]

Maybe because it wasn't time. The details didn't matter until "the time was right ". Remember the instruction to "seal the prophecy until the time of the end" and how "the end" was far off (in time)? I'm going by memory now.....I'll look for that specific reference.

Daniel 12:4
But you, Daniel, shut up these words and seal the book until the time of the end.​

If I have my timeline correct.... Daniel was about 600 years before John and Jesus. But Gabriel did come back......and spoke with John the baptizer's father (and with Mary - the mother of Jesus). My belief (along with the Nicene Church) is that's because of the prophetic timeline. It was....."the time of the end"....and John would be paving the way.....preparing the crowds....for their anticipated Messiah.

The 483 years were up at least 20 years before Gabriel came to the parents of Jesus and John. All 490 if continuous, years were up. That is why you have to use the wrong decree to "fix" God's prophetic timeline for God. God never declares the timeline needs to be fixed. It is 7 weeks and 62 weeks, or 49 years and 434 years. That is all God declared. No one has to make it perfect.

 

[mkgal1]

The 483 years were up at least 20 years before Gabriel came to the parents of Jesus and John.

No........

457 BC + 49 years to build Temple = 408 BC

408 BC + 62 weeks (62x7 =434 years) - time between Micah and Luke, BTW - waiting "unto Messiah" period = 26/27 AD


..... John & Jesus didn't begin their ministries as infants.

It wasn't until they were grown men with authority that their ministries began. 30 years old was the ancient Jewish customary age to teach with authority.

Luke's gospel gives us amazing details. Luke wrote, "5In the time of Herod king of Judea there was a priest named Zechariah, who belonged to the priestly division of Abijah, and whose wife Elizabeth was a daughter of Aaron."

Which lines up beautifully with historical records.

quoting from link:
During the Second Temple period, the twenty-four priestly divisions served in the temple at Jerusalem in a rotation system. A list of priestly divisions can be found in 1 Chronicles 24:7-18, which is usually dated by scholars to the fifth century B.C.E.
~A Priest of the Division of Abijah | JerusalemPerspective.com Online

 

[mkgal1]

That is why you have to use the wrong decree to "fix" God's prophetic timeline for God. God never declares the timeline needs to be fixed. It is 7 weeks and 62 weeks, or 49 years and 434 years. That is all God declared. No one has to make it perfect

It seems that this conclusion begins with the strong belief others are "wrong" so the simple math (and revelations from Scripture) are rejected and dismissed.

Yes....God declared it (through His messenger Gabriel to Daniel, Zechariah, and Mary). So why reject the details that are given to us?

 

[mkgal1]

It is 7 weeks and 62 weeks, or 49 years and 434 years. That is all God declared. No one has to make it perfect.

No one (but you) has said anything about "fixing " it. But I'm curious why you're cutting off the last 7 years? The total time given was 7 x 70 = 490 years. You're actually cutting off the whole ministry of Jesus by not including the last seven years. 69 weeks only brings the timeline to 26/27 AD. Why stop there?

From Bible Hub:

THERE IS ROOM FOR ANOTHER KING BESIDES THE EARTHLY RULER. Herod was still reigning, and yet the Christ came to set up his kingdom. The sovereign at Jerusalem naturally suspected the new-born King to be a rival to his throne. Most of the Jews would have shared his opinion if they had believed in Jesus, though they would have regarded the situation with very different feelings. But Christ did not come to sit on the throne of Herod, and we cannot think of him simply as the rightful Heir who will expel the insolent usurper. His kingdom is not of this world. Earthly monarchs rise and fall, and still he reigns. His is the kingdom of heaven set up on earth. There is a reign of life which they that hold the sword of external government cannot hinder. They cannot restrain its glorious liberty, nor can they reform its evils. The world wants a King who can rule in the realm of ideas, who can sway hearts, who can conquer sin. Therefore the apostles were commissioned to make known "another King, one Jesus" (Acts 17:7).​

 

[mkgal1]

The 483 years were up at least 20 years before Gabriel came to the parents of Jesus and John.

This statement is denial that Jesus of Nazareth was ancient biblical Israel's Messiah.

Again.....are you certain that's the argument you want to stand on and attempt to defend?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The explain away syndrome of them who refuse to acknowledge that the vision in v21-23 is about the little horn time of the end prophecy and vision - is amazing to me.

It's amazing to me that you don't recognize that Daniel 9:24-27 is all about Jesus Christ (not some future Antichrist) and what He would accomplish for the people of Israel. He is the one who accomplished all of the six things listed in Daniel 9:24 and He is the one who confirmed the covenant that put an end to the animal sacrifices and sin offerings.

I recall that you became very uncomfortable when I asked you awhile back to explain your understanding of Daniel 9:24. Why should we think you are correct in your interpretation of the prophecy when you can't even explain how Daniel 9:24 was or will be fulfilled?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

The 483 years were up at least 20 years before Gabriel came to the parents of Jesus and John. All 490 if continuous, years were up. That is why you have to use the wrong decree to "fix" God's prophetic timeline for God. God never declares the timeline needs to be fixed. It is 7 weeks and 62 weeks, or 49 years and 434 years. That is all God declared. No one has to make it perfect.

But it says that the 483 years were going to lead to the appearing of the Messiah. So, how do you reconcile that with your view that the first 483 years (69 weeks) were over already at least 20 years before Jesus was even born?

How do you interpret this verse:

Daniel 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.