Noachian Flood discussion - Bible skeptics vs Lion IRC and friends :)

[Bradskii]

Support your claims with sources outside of science.

That's not the most ridiculous thing you have said in this thread, but...

Edit: Sorry, I just checked. It is actually the most ridiculous thing you've said in this thread.

 

[Bradskii]

Can I get caught up to speed?

Has anyone presented any independent, corroborating evidence for the Noachian flood story at this point? That wasn't a Bible verse or a presupposition.

Even for an unusually large/destructive flood localised to the Tigris-Euphrates floodplain? Or the Eastern Mediterranean basin?

Seems like this would be the most basic first step.

Yeah. But you have to do it without using that pesky 'science' stuff.

 

[Kylie]

From the theological perspective:
There is a conflict between order and chaos. God is binding the chaos and keeping the order so that we can live in the world, but chaos/snake/satan/waters/Leviathan is still waiting "outside" to destroy it. Therefore, we, humans, must take care of the creation and with the help of God protect it and make it bloom.

From the human viewpoint:
I am standing on a dry land, around it are seas/waters (sometimes used as a symbol of chaos), over my head are lights in the sky, moving in their ways. Water falls down from the sky. When people die, they transform to dust (so they are just dust) etc.

The stuff from the theological perspective is unverifiable, so I don't see why we should accept it.

The stuff from the Human viewpoint is obvious without the Bible.

In both cases, there is no verifiable and unique information that the Bible provides, so the Bible seems to be unnecessary.

 

[Kylie]

Survived WHAT?

Survived floating free on open water.

Show your work.
Beam sizes, structural load bearing capacity, cellulose wood fibre tensile strength, buoyancy calculations...empirical data.
Come on! That's what 'rational' thinkers ought to be able to do.
You are the one making the unsubstantiated claim. Can you back it up?
I say the Ark floats. Thats my definition of "survive".
You say that's impossible. WHY?

Why? Because a wooden vessel of that size is unable to support it's own weight on even the slightest swell. The Wyoming, a wooden vessel, broke apart, and even in calm conditions she leaked due to the constant flexing of her hull and required constant pumping to keep the water out. And that was a ship built with the most advanced techniques AND steel reinforcing beams. And yet you would have us believe that a completely wooden ship that was larger than the Wyoming, with no steel reinforcing that was built by an amateur using primitive techniques was able to survive?

Noah’s Ark or the Wyoming?.

That boat don

Which chapter/verse ????
Have you read the text? Which part doesn't 'work' ?

Just as I said, you are trying to ignore reality. Events in the real world show us that wooden vessels of that size are incapable of surviving. The only way you can claim this doesn't invalidate your ark claim is to admit that the ark story doesn't take place in reality.

Nope. The rules are that if you expect to falsify any specific bible verse you should provide specific evidence. Youre just making a vague brute fact claim - unsupported.

Take your pick of any Bible verse that says the ark could survive being on open water. I've already provided two sources that say it was impossible.

...says the person who wont/can't discuss their alleged evidence against the biblical account of the flood.

...says the person who thinks they can start from the position of assuming the flood story is correct and doesn't think they need to support their claims.

 

[inquiring mind]

Why? Because a wooden vessel of that size is unable to support it's own weight on even the slightest swell. The Wyoming, a wooden vessel, broke apart, and even in calm conditions she leaked due to the constant flexing of her hull and required constant pumping to keep the water out. And that was a ship built with the most advanced techniques AND steel reinforcing beams. And yet you would have us believe that a completely wooden ship that was larger than the Wyoming, with no steel reinforcing that was built by an amateur using primitive techniques was able to survive?

Just to stay between the ditches here, it wasn't like the Wyoming foundered the first time it encountered a wave. It had transported tons of coal for fourteen years prior. The Ark only had to float a few months. According to Wikipedia Wyoming was built of yellow pine with 6" planking, and yes it did have metal bracing.

 

[HitchSlap]

What flood?

 

[Kylie]

Just to stay between the ditches here, it wasn't like the Wyoming foundered the first time it encountered a wave. It had transported tons of coal for fourteen years prior. The Ark only had to float a few months. According to Wikipedia Wyoming was built of yellow pine with 6" planking, and yes it did have metal bracing.

However, it leaked like a sieve in even the calmest conditions because of how much it flexed and required pumps to be operating constantly. Given that that the ark would have been even more flexible (since it was larger and less rigid), then surely it needed to be pumped as well. How are 8 people going to manage that? Also, the Wyoming stayed close to shore so that it had much more sheltered conditions than open water, and also so that it could always make a dash for the safety of land if needed. The ark had no such luxury.

 

[inquiring mind]

However, it leaked like a sieve in even the calmest conditions because of how much it flexed and required pumps to be operating constantly. Given that that the ark would have been even more flexible (since it was larger and less rigid), then surely it needed to be pumped as well. How are 8 people going to manage that? Also, the Wyoming stayed close to shore so that it had much more sheltered conditions than open water, and also so that it could always make a dash for the safety of land if needed. The ark had no such luxury.

I was just making the point that the schooner had been sea-worthy for fourteen years, hauling thousands of tons of coal. Yes, a lot of questions, but thousands of years from now people will probably be saying, I can’t believe they made it to the moon in the Apollo 11.

 

[Kylie]

I was just making the point that the schooner had been sea-worthy for fourteen years, hauling thousands of tons of coal. Yes, a lot of questions, but thousands of years from now people will probably be saying, I can’t believe they made it to the moon in the Apollo 11.

Barely seaworthy, and only because of technology that Noah did not have access to.

 

[inquiring mind]

Barely seaworthy, and only because of technology that Noah did not have access to.

I've read there were ancient Greek warships about the size of the Wyoming.

 

[Mr Laurier]

Support your claims with sources outside of science.

The Noah story is refuted by history as well as science.

 

[Mr Laurier]

Hebrews didn't write that.

And?

And if you think they just hung around the Mesopotamian region for 1658 years, when God said to replenish the earth, you don't know much about population expansion, do you?

And like every "if" that you offer up, this one too rests on a nonsense presupposition. NOBODY thinks this.

For scale, the United States went from Boston to Los Angeles, some 3000 miles, in under 200 years.

We know.

 

[Mr Laurier]

I've read there were ancient Greek warships about the size of the Wyoming.

I've read that King Arthur has a pet dragon

 

[Speedwell]

What a funny conversation--arguing about the seaworthiness of an imaginary boat.

 

[Mr Laurier]

Modern engineering also built the Apollo I capsule, the Titanic, the Hindenburg, Thalidomide, Vioxx, the Deepwater Horizon, Chernobyl Nuclear Power Plant, Three Mile Island Power Plant, the Scorpion, the Challenger, the Columbia, and the Banqiao Reservoir Dam.

Need I go on?

And for the record, what did Noah use a hammer for?

Modern engineering was not involved in the development or distribution of Thalidomide. That was all on the investors. Greedy stockholders who wanted fast profit in their investment, and were not afraid the threaten/blackmail the German scientists who were telling them that they had doubts about the safety of the new drug.
The Titanic was a combination of accountants deciding that lifeboats were an unnecessary expense. And stockholders overruling the engineers who flat out warned them that there was a fire in one of the coal bunkers.
The Hindenburg disaster was caused by politicians overruling engineers.

 

[Mr Laurier]

Wow! I wonder what the Battle of Jericho will be like!?

Stallone will be riding a flying chariot, drawn by pegasi.
Will Smith in a bit role, opposite Beyonce

 

[Kylie]

I've read there were ancient Greek warships about the size of the Wyoming.

Perhaps. However, a quick search on Google indicates that we don't actually have any examples of these ships, just a description of one, and that just mentions the size. There's nothing in the source I found to suggest it actually saw use. The same source said that these ships were far too large to have any practical use. These ships also tended to be built from lightweight, soft fir trees.

There were some barges that were recovered, so we have accurate sizes on those vessels, but they were much smaller, about 70 meters, and they were barges on a lake, so they would not have needed to face the stress of being on the open sea. Giant Hellenistic warships

 

[SelfSim]

Barely seaworthy, and only because of technology that Noah did not have access to.

Sir Russell's movie, (which I posted about before .. Y'know .. as evidence for what I believe must've happened ), had huge storms, which whipped up humungous waves .. and the animals were asleep (so no poo or food to worry about!) .. and the rock monsters (who, serving time because of past transgressions) are the ones who actually built it .. Noah was just some kind of project manager or something(?)

Ahh believe! .. Ahm a believer! Isn't it just wonderful?

 

[AV1611VET]

NOBODY thinks this.

Nobody thinks Noah lived in Mesopotamia?

Then call me Genghis Khan.

I don't think he did, but I don't know of anyone else who agrees with me.

Where do you think he lived?

 

[AV1611VET]

What a funny conversation--arguing about the seaworthiness of an imaginary boat.

The unsinkable Titanic?

As we're fond of saying:

Amateurs built the Ark; professionals built the Titanic.