Noachian Flood discussion - Bible skeptics vs Lion IRC and friends :)

[AV1611VET]

The "boat" at the ark encounter is about as seaworthy as the one at Raymond James Stadium.

That's because you can't replicate a miracle with science.

 

[Job 33:6]

When I speculate, I try to remain as close to the Scriptures as I can get.

If I can see how God handled a similar situation in the Scriptures, then I'll apply that to the situation in question.

In the case of how koalas, for example, got to [what is now] Australia, they obviously didn't walk there.

So how did they get there?

Acts 8 gives me a clue as to how God may have done it, so that's the explanation I give.

So in one hand, we have the Holy Spirit Teleportation hypothesis, in which the Holy Spirit seized eggs of animals from around the world and they were teleported to the ark.

And let me just say, I would absolutely love to hear a sermon on this hypothesis^

Alternatively, we have a biogeographic succession of marsupials and a succession of fossils across the southern hemisphere from south america to Antarctica and then to australia, suggesting that marsupials simply walked to Australia (of course at a time in which continents were together sometime in the mesozoic). Why would we have a fossil succession and biogeographical distributions with the oldest marsupials in south America, younger marsupials in Antarctica and the youngest marsupials in Australia if they hadn't simply walked there?

 

[Hans Blaster]

Second, he makes this comment in a different regard, "The water from the melting glaciers began to rush toward the world's oceans, Ballard said, causing floods all around the world." Then he says, "The questions is, was there a mother of all floods," Ballard said.
He sure seems to be hinting at the possibility of Noah's Flood to me.

"Floods all around the world" and "floods over all the world" are *not* the same thing.

The melt of the ice sheets caused many large, local floods from melt water trapped between land features and ice sheets where either the ice, or the land forms failed releasing locally catastrophic floods over hundreds of km.

Here's an article summarizing such floods and listing many examples. Note that none of them happen far from the glaciers.

Glacial lake outburst flood - Wikipedia

One particularly spectacular example is the Missoula floods in the Pacific NW of the US.

An Introduction to the Ice Age Floods – Ice Age Floods Institute

The "Black Sea Flood" (I have the book here somewhere...) is caused by

1. the sea level *dropping* during the ice age as the water was redistributed into ice sheets

2. The Mediterranean Sea dropped below the level of the straight of Gibralter isolating it from the oceans, causing it to drop even further.

3. The Black Sea was cut off from the Med.

4. The Oceans and Med started to rise, and overtopped the land separating Med and Black seas. This rush of water caused the Black Sea to rise fairly rapidly, but in a fashion that would cause to shore to expand at roughly a walking pace.

5. The people abandoning their villages on the dry bottom of the Black Sea carried out stories of a mass flood that forced them out of their villages.

Black Sea deluge hypothesis - Wikipedia


There are problems with this being the origin of the Noah flood myth. There is no rain, and no need for boats to save anyone or animals. It fits much better with a massive flood in an enclosed river basin.

 

[Job 33:6]

So in one hand, we have the Holy Spirit Teleportation hypothesis, in which the Holy Spirit seized eggs of animals from around the world and they were teleported to the ark.

And let me just say, I would absolutely love to hear a sermon on this hypothesis^

Alternatively, we have a biogeographic succession of marsupial fossils across the southern hemisphere, suggesting that marsupials simply walked to Australia (of course at a time in which continents were together sometime in the mesozoic).

View attachment 298182

 

[Hans Blaster]

Okay ... let's see:Let's say all life on earth suddenly dies within a moment of time.

Wouldn't you find fish at the bottom first? elephants on top of them? and then birds on top of the elephants?

No.

Fish live in lakes, rivers, and oceans. Elephants do not. (They do cross rivers and wade into shallow waters.

In general "sudden global death" would find land animals and water animals in different locations, not different strata.

 

[Hans Blaster]

For brevity and to be scientific, let's just say Quantum Mechanics. If atoms and electrons can be in two places at once, would God have a problem with animals?

This is not how quantum mechanics works, and if you'd ever taken a course in it you wouldn't make this statement.

 

[AV1611VET]

So in one hand, we have the Holy Spirit Teleportation hypothesis, in which the Holy Spirit seized eggs of animals from around the world and they were teleported to the ark.

What "eggs of animals" are you referring to? you must have me mixed up with someone else.

 

[AV1611VET]

No.

Fish live in lakes, rivers, and oceans. Elephants do not. (They do cross rivers and wade into shallow waters.

In general "sudden global death" would find land animals and water animals in different locations, not different strata.

Then what's this all about?

An answer is that we can literally take a tape measure, we can put that tape measure at the bottom of a stratigraphic column and we can observe fish in the deeper layers, land animals in middle layers, and then birds in higher layers.

 

[AV1611VET]

* Distribution of Marsupials *

That's nice.

 

[Mr Laurier]

Oh, forgot this. Yes, my point was (and I can't believe I'm having to explain this) that when the poor (and you evidently) eat the few billionaires... all that will be left for them to eat is the working class (common man).

WRONG!.
With the billionaires out of the way, all the wealth they hoard will be available.
All the food they withhold, will be freed.
And you also seem to think that I'm not part of the poor.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Then what's this all about?

I don't know what it is since you didn't give a proper reference for it. Citations/links are necessary.

 

[Mr Laurier]

Yeah, but the fountains of the deep weren't bursting forth.

Thats nice.
The wells of the tall weren't blasting fifth either

 

[AV1611VET]

I don't know what it is since you didn't give a proper reference for it. Citations/links are necessary.

Post 467

 

[inquiring mind]

Which one? Will the Real Dr Snelling Please Stand Up?



And he freely admits that he rejects science because he decided that the Bible was right and his solution to the conflict between his religious beliefs and science was to just ignore science.



And can you tell me what results they have got from applying YEC beliefs to their fields?

Not really, I don't know anything much about either one of them. I just did a quick search and found two scientists that apparently have a different view from mainstream science regarding the Flood, which is basically what you asked for wasn't it?

 

[inquiring mind]

The "boat" at the ark encounter is about as seaworthy as the one at Raymond James Stadium.

Skeptics say that about the real one too, don't they?

 

[Hans Blaster]

Post 467

I think you mean post #383, not the post quoting it. I don't think that quote quite means what you think it does. From the context, it was arguing that you don't see all of the animals from all epoch jumbled together.

Fish are present in the layers deeper than the layers land animals are found in but that does not mean that there are no marine deposits made on top of land-animal-containing deposits.

 

[Hans Blaster]

Skeptics say that about the real one too, don't they?

The ark encounter is a *building* fastened to a foundation embedded in the ground with one side crafted to look like a wooden ship. The internal structure is wooden timbers, etc.

 

[Kylie]

The "boat" at the ark encounter is about as seaworthy as the one at Raymond James Stadium.

Even if it was as seaworthy as possible, wooden vessels of that size are incredibly dangerous on open water.

 

[Kylie]

Not really, I don't know anything much about either one of them. I just did a quick search and found two scientists that apparently have a different view from mainstream science regarding the Flood, which is basically what you asked for wasn't it?

So you only care about their opinions, and nothing else?

I'm sure you could find any number of people who have whatever viewpoint you want to support. That doesn't mean that their viewpoint is accurate. Take for instance the case of Dr Snelling, who has to lead two lives in order to actually get any proper work published. He can't even be a respected scientist without pretending he isn't a YEC.

 

[inquiring mind]

Believe or not it was meant to be a serious question.

The Compton wavelength λ is defined as;
λ = h/mc
where h is Planck's constant, m is the mass of the object and c is the speed of light.

The physical interpretation of this equation is to consider the shrinking of a macro sized object of mass m and at what size does the object behave quantum mechanically when colliding photons results in it scattering.
For the electron mass of 9.1 x 10⁻³¹ kg, the Compton wavelength is 2.43 x 10⁻¹² m.
Given the 'classical' radius of an electron is around 2.82 x 10⁻¹⁵ m, one would expect electrons to behave quantum mechanically.
A koala on the other hand of mass 1 kg has a Compton wavelength of 2.21 x 10⁻⁴² m.
So clearly macro sized koalas cannot behave quantum mechanically.

My answer was serious. You’re back to quantum mechanics… we determined it was quantum physics, a difference, no mathematical laws and most likely uncertain by either of us, certainly me.