Noachian Flood discussion - Bible skeptics vs Lion IRC and friends :)

[Job 33:6]

Okay ... let's see:Let's say all life on earth suddenly dies within a moment of time.

Wouldn't you find fish at the bottom first? elephants on top of them? and then birds on top of the elephants?

Come on AV, you and I both know that this doesn't jive. The fossil succession is found in plants too. Did flowering plants outrun seeded plants to high ground? Did vascular plants flap their leaves to fly to higher ground than non vascular plants?

And of course these layers cannot be said to have been deposited "in a moment" when we have things like fossil feeding traces and tracks of aimlessly wandering animals, such as birds right through them. Complex burrow networks and nests with eggs. Birds fly when they're fleeing chaos, they don't aimlessly walk around feeding.

Then we have issues of figuring out how angular unconformities form "in a moment" of time right in the middle of the Paleozoic, all the while hosting animals trackways and fault gouge right through the middle them. The only way this could happen is if physical matter time travelled to cram a million events into such a short period of time.

But please do entertain me

I think the last time we all really had a discussion on this flood, it turned into some discussion of a quasi alternate dimension where animal eggs (because grown animals wouldn't fit) were rolling across the planet months in advance of the flood (in order to reach the ark before the flood began) to an ark that had an entrance much like a tardis booth that led to another dimension where the inside of the ark was bigger than the outside in order to fit all the animals. Then at the end of the flood there were koalas pulling a Michael Phelps, doing the breast stroke across the Indian ocean (despite paleogeographic distributions of marsupials clearly demonstrating that they simply and casually walked from south america and across Antarctica to reach Australia).

 

[inquiring mind]

It is an important part of our cultural heritage--just like the Garden of Eden.

Yes, so important that the man who found the Titanic and Bismark is looking for evidence of it. He'll have to look farther than the Black Sea area though. Noah's Flood happened on a much larger scale than that.

 

[inquiring mind]

Come on AV, you and I both know that this doesn't jive. The fossil succession is found in plants too. Did flowering plants outrun seeded plants to high ground? Did vascular plants flap their leaves to fly to higher ground than non vascular plants?

And of course these layers cannot be said to have been deposited "in a moment" when we have things like fossil feeding traces and tracks of aimlessly wandering animals, such as birds right through them. Complex burrow networks and nests with eggs. Birds fly when they're fleeing chaos, they don't aimlessly walk around feeding.

Then we have issues of figuring out how angular unconformities form "in a moment" of time right in the middle of the Paleozoic, all the while hosting animals trackways and fault gouge right through the middle them. The only way this could happen is if physical matter time travelled to cram a million events into such a short period of time.

But please do entertain me

I think the last time we all really had a discussion on this flood, it turned into some discussion of a quasi alternate dimension where animal eggs (because grown animals wouldn't fit) were rolling across the planet months in advance of the flood (in order to reach the ark before the flood began) to an ark that had an entrance much like a tardis booth that led to another dimension where the inside of the ark was bigger than the outside in order to fit all the animals. Then at the end of the flood there were koalas pulling a Michael Phelps, doing the breast stroke across the Indian ocean (despite paleogeographic distributions of marsupials clearly demonstrating that they simply and casually walked from south america and across Antarctica to reach Australia).

For brevity and to be scientific, let's just say Quantum Mechanics. If atoms and electrons can be in two places at once, would God have a problem with animals?

 

[SelfSim]

For brevity and to be scientific, let's just say Quantum Mechanics. If atoms and electrons can be in two places at once, would God have a problem with animals?

Yes because animals aren't quantum mechanical objects.

 

[inquiring mind]

Yes because animals aren't quantum mechanical objects.

What about quantum physics?

 

[Bradskii]

For brevity and to be scientific, let's just say Quantum Mechanics. If atoms and electrons can be in two places at once, would God have a problem with animals?

Can't you see that you're simply falling back on 'Well, God can do anything' when it's pointed out the the evidence doesn't support tbe story?
Where did the water come from? Well, God just did that.
Where did it all go? Well, God just did that.
Where are all the fossils? Well, God just did that.
How did you get all the animals there? Well, God just did that.
How did they get back? Well, God just did that.

I can imagine Noah thinking: 'Hell's teeth, it's going to be hard work building this ark. If God is going to do all this other stuff, why can't he simply give me a bloody wooden boat as well?'

Apart from it being a nonsensical story from an evidentiary point of view, it makes no sense whatsoever when you include an onmipotent deity.

 

[AV1611VET]

H: There's dry land over there.
N: Darn it, I knew we should have added some sails and a rudder.

And we need some way of getting 'roos back down under. If God simply moved them from A to B (or A to C actually) then that's effectively a transporter. You didn't expect them to hop all the way, did you?

Brad, let me speak plainly here.

As the animals got off the Ark, they were teleported to their respective niches in much the say way as Philip was teleported to Azotus in Acts 8.

 

[AV1611VET]

I think the last time we all really had a discussion on this flood, it turned into some discussion of a quasi alternate dimension where animal eggs (because grown animals wouldn't fit) were rolling across the planet months in advance of the flood (in order to reach the ark before the flood began) to an ark that had an entrance much like a tardis booth that led to another dimension where the inside of the ark was bigger than the outside in order to fit all the animals. Then at the end of the flood there were koalas pulling a Michael Phelps, doing the breast stroke across the Indian ocean (despite paleogeographic distributions of marsupials clearly demonstrating that they simply and casually walked from south america and across Antarctica to reach Australia).

Wow! I guess we have discussed this before, haven't we!?

 

[Bradskii]

Brad, let me speak plainly here.

As the animals got off the Ark, they were teleported to their respective niches in much the say way as Philip was teleported to Azotus in Acts 8.

The bible say it, that settles.

Except it doesn't.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I understood the article; you don't understand. I don't think I said it was proof of the Flood; the article does. First, look at the title:

Evidence Noah's Biblical Flood Happened, Says Robert Ballard
Dr. Robert Ballard, an acclaimed underwater archaeologist, explains the evidence

Second, he makes this comment in a different regard, "The water from the melting glaciers began to rush toward the world's oceans, Ballard said, causing floods all around the world." Then he says, "The questions is, was there a mother of all floods," Ballard said.
He sure seems to be hinting at the possibility of Noah's Flood to me.

You are confused by click bait titles and hyperbole. The writer may have hinted at that but there were no such one single post ice age flood . I studied one of those personally a bit, not a lot. But I knew its extent. And I have read about the floods (plural, quite a few in fact) that formed the Channeled Scablands. Different floods at different times. Not one single flood. The ice took thousands of years to to melt. Geologic events can be dated by several means.

 

[inquiring mind]

Can't you see that you're simply falling back on 'Well, God can do anything' when it's pointed out the the evidence doesn't support tbe story?
Where did the water come from? Well, God just did that.
Where did it all go? Well, God just did that.
Where are all the fossils? Well, God just did that.
How did you get all the animals there? Well, God just did that.
How did they get back? Well, God just did that.

It seems that way I’m sure. Contrary to what you may think, I believe the pursuit of science is a wonderful attribute of man. But, this world is full of endless mysteries we’ll never know the answer to. So, when someone tells me it can’t be because it doesn’t fit what we know through our methods, or some parameters we understand, or our interpretation of evidence, well, I just immediately jump to we really know nothing (or very little in the scheme of things)… and someone does. You know who I think that someone is.

I can imagine Noah thinking: 'Hell's teeth, it's going to be hard work building this ark. If God is going to do all this other stuff, why can't he simply give me a bloody wooden boat as well?'
Apart from it being a nonsensical story from an evidentiary point of view, it makes no sense whatsoever when you include an onmipotent deity.

I guess my thinking is if God was going to do it all, why would He even bother to put us here?

 

[sjastro]

What about quantum physics?

What's the Compton wavelength of a koala?

 

[AV1611VET]

The bible say it, that settles.

Except it doesn't.

Then I'm free to speculate.

1. Bible says x, Science says x = go with x
2. Bible says x, Science says y = go with x
3. Bible says x, Science says ø = go with x
4. Bible says ø, Science says x = go with x
5. Bible says ø, Science says ø = free to speculate on your own

 

[inquiring mind]

What's the Compton wavelength of a koala?

Uncertain to us.

 

[AV1611VET]

Where did the water come from? Well, God just did that.
Where did it all go? Well, God just did that.
Where are all the fossils? Well, God just did that.
How did you get all the animals there? Well, God just did that.
How did they get back? Well, God just did that.

I think I'm a little more explanatory than this.

I not only give specific answers, but back them up with Scripture.

So I have to ask: Does it really matter if you get general answers over specific ones?

 

[dlamberth]

5. Bible says ø, Science says ø = free to speculate on your own

What I wonder is how the speculation part is really just plain adding what ever suits ones fancy, even if it sounds crazy as heck.

 

[Kylie]

Andrew Snelling, PH.D. (one of your countrymen)

Which one? Will the Real Dr Snelling Please Stand Up?

Also, Dr. Kurt wise

And he freely admits that he rejects science because he decided that the Bible was right and his solution to the conflict between his religious beliefs and science was to just ignore science.

Just a couple of scientists (found in less than 5 minutes searching, so you can find a lot of material to research if you want) that don’t conform exactly to conventional mainstream scientific thinking in regard to the world-wide flood. Of course, they have connections to Christian organizations, but where else would you expect them to align? You can call them quacks, you can say 90% of scientists disagree (I’m sure they’re used to being trashed), but my point was there are scientists, qualified, who do not hold your view regarding a world-wide flood.

And can you tell me what results they have got from applying YEC beliefs to their fields?

 

[Hans Blaster]

Anything that floats, as the old saying goes.

The "boat" at the ark encounter is about as seaworthy as the one at Raymond James Stadium.

 

[sjastro]

Uncertain to us.

Believe or not it was meant to be a serious question.

The Compton wavelength λ is defined as;
λ = h/mc
where h is Planck's constant, m is the mass of the object and c is the speed of light.

The physical interpretation of this equation is to consider the shrinking of a macro sized object of mass m and at what size does the object behave quantum mechanically when colliding photons results in it scattering.
For the electron mass of 9.1 x 10⁻³¹ kg, the Compton wavelength is 2.43 x 10⁻¹² m.
Given the 'classical' radius of an electron is around 2.82 x 10⁻¹⁵ m, one would expect electrons to behave quantum mechanically.
A koala on the other hand of mass 1 kg has a Compton wavelength of 2.21 x 10⁻⁴² m.
So clearly macro sized koalas cannot behave quantum mechanically.

 

[AV1611VET]

What I wonder is how the speculation part is really just plain adding what ever suits ones fancy, even if it sounds crazy as heck.

When I speculate, I try to remain as close to the Scriptures as I can get.

If I can see how God handled a similar situation in the Scriptures, then I'll apply that to the situation in question.

In the case of how koalas, for example, got to [what is now] Australia, they obviously didn't walk there.

So how did they get there?

Acts 8 gives me a clue as to how God may have done it, so that's the explanation I give.