Cannot Be A Christian If...

hedrick

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This assumes that Communism and Marxism are merely economic systems, instead of their economics being a part of their general philosophy. A general philosophy which tends towards the breakdown and dissolution of Christian Orthodoxy instead of establishing or supporting it.

Do you know of any orthodox Christians who call themselves Marxists or Communists?
To my knowledge some Catholic liberation theology is (was?) orthodox. They use a Marxist economic analysis, but it’s kind of melded with a Christianity. A lot of Marx’s judgement of human behavior would fit Calvinism, though a Calvinist would note that it describes the behavior of unredeemed people, and the recommended form of government is rather different.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Do you have an example of a theological orthodox (in a general sense) Christian Marxist?

Sure, an example of such would be a theologically orthodox Christian who is also a Marxist.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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To my knowledge some Catholic liberation theology is (was?) orthodox. They use a Marxist economic analysis, but it’s kind of melded with a Christianity. A lot of Marx’s judgement of human behavior would fit Calvinism, though a Calvinist would note that it describes the behavior of unredeemed people, and the recommended form of government is rather different.
Any specific figures in particular? Because I can't think of one orthodox Christian who was a committed Marxist.
 
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hedrick

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Ignatius the Kiwi

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Here’s my reference. Liberation theology - Wikipedia It mentions a few people.
Who in particular in those names of 'liberation theologians' would you recommend as a good Communist Christian?

Didn't the Vatican condemn Marxism/Communism at some point? So be careful who you say is a Marxist in the Catholic Church..
 
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hedrick

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Who in particular in those names of 'liberation theologians' would you recommend as a good Communist Christian?

Didn't the Vatican condemn Marxism/Communism at some point? So be careful who you say is a Marxist in the Catholic Church..
Soviet communism was condemned. But that wasn’t quite what Marx intended, and wasn’t what I’d call actual communism. The article gives more details on what was and wasn’t condemned. But as I noted, they don’t accept everything Marx said. Rather, they use Marxist analysis of the problems with the economic and probably government systems. From the little I know they may well have created communities with a form of communism, but that wouldn’t scale to a whole country.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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Soviet communism was condemned. But that wasn’t quite what Marx intended, and wasn’t what I’d call actual communism. The article gives more details on what was and wasn’t condemned. But as I noted, they don’t accept everything Marx said. Rather, they use Marxist analysis of the problems with the economic and probably government systems. From the little I know they may well have created communities with a form of communism, but that wouldn’t scale to a whole country.

Can you name one person from among this group who you would recommend as a good Christian Communist?
 
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Dave L

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I've never seen nor heard of any Communist system doing that, so there's the evidence. All you are doing is listening to Communist propaganda, their trying to use early Christianity to make the gullible think there is such a thing as "Christian Communism". Communal living is NOT the same thing as Communism. That is why you will find poverty and starvation in the Communist systems who don't convert to some form of Capitalism, like many of today's Communist nations of today have been forced to do, or die.
You are not understanding that treating others as your equal means what is yours is theirs. Christians in their purity were and are communistic, not by force as in the world. but by love. How many believers are you in debt to?
 
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Davy

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There are Christian Marxists. Sort of.

There's also those in the world that have claimed to be Jesus Christ Himself too, but someone claiming titles and labels doesn't determine what they follow. Remember what Lord Jesus taught about the type of fruit the tree produces. He revealed how to know His vs. His enemies by that, and He didn't even have to use labels.

But members of a movement don’t always agree with everything the founder said. I agree that Marx's analysis saw religion as wrong. But I think communism as an economic system isn’t inherently tied to atheism. In some sense the first Christians practiced communism. It’s also pretty clear that in its original form it will never work beyond a small, committed community. Current Marxists share a lot of methodology with Marx, but they don’t have quite the same proposed system.

As I've shown before, Karl Marx's Communist Manifesto contains principles that are antichrist, because they go against God's principles in The Bible. So people living in a community does not mean they are following Marx's Communist principles. It's not the same thing, even though Communists love to use that theory.
 
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Davy

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You are not understanding that treating others as your equal means what is yours is theirs. Christians in their purity were and are communistic, not by force as in the world. but by love. How many believers are you in debt to?

No, Communism per Karl Marx's Communist Manifesto, which I listed in the OP before the - mark, is NOT what the early Christians practiced. To say it was is to push Marxist propaganda. Communists that work against Christ exist within today's Christian Church also, even as KGB defectors have warned (Golitsyn for one who was a KGB colonel that defected to U.S. in the 1960s).

A record of an early Christian community exists for Jamestown, with Christians that settled there basically in the wilderness. They learned early on that keeping everything in common did not work, for many starved. From 1609 to 1610 many starved because there was no INCENTIVE to work to produce it.

That's an example of what happens when everyone knows they will receive the same, whether you work or not. Economically it does not work! That has been one of the biggest problems in Communist countries, they have to try and police those who don't work, which is really impossible to truly do in a large country. It means you wind up with a lot of atrocities just to try and get everyone to work.

Yet the Bible way, God's Way, like Apostle Paul said, if a man won't work neither should he eat (2 Thessalonians 3:10).

The settlers at Jamestown the next year applied that Bible principle. If you didn't work, you didn't eat. What you produced you got to keep and trade or sell any extra. That next year no one starved, and there was abundance. THAT... is the 'free market' or 'free enterprise' system! It works, because God created it.

So let's settle the matter about things in common per Apostle Paul...

Paul Teaching To Do Alms, Which is Not By Commandment:


2 Cor 8:7-15
7 Therefore, as ye abound in every thing, in faith, and utterance, and knowledge, and in all diligence, and in your love to us, see that ye abound in this grace also.

8 I speak not by commandment, but by occasion of the forwardness of others, and to prove the sincerity of your love.


9 For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though He was rich, yet for your sakes He became poor, that ye through His poverty might be rich.

10 And herein I give my advice: for this is expedient for you, who have begun before, not only to do, but also to be forward a year ago.

11 Now therefore perform the doing of it; that as there was a readiness to will, so there may be a performance also out of that which ye have.

12 For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.

13 For I mean not that other men be eased, and ye burdened:


14 But by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may be a supply for their want, that their abundance also may be a supply for your want: that there may be equality:


15 As it is written, 'He that had gathered much had nothing over; and he that had gathered little had no lack.'
KJV


2 Cor 9:7
7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
KJV




What Paul is describing is doing Alms for other brethren that are needy, and to do it not by command, but via the heart and compassion for them, and not to do it so much that it puts a burden on yourself. This all Churches in Christ and its members still do today.

So really, the bottom line that Apostle Paul taught about sharing, involved the principle of 'private property'. He didn't command for us to do Alms, nor to give our abundance to the State. He only asked us to provide for the needy out of our abundance. That means each giver determines what they will give.

But under the system of Communism, what happens? The State takes... your abundance and more so that you become one of the needy, because that is a principle that Communist systems use to keep control of the masses, i.e., keep them on the edge of starvation. But the Party, they have access to the abundance because they control it. Because of this, lack of incentive to work was the result, which made economic conditions even worse!

It makes sense that if the State is going to take the results of your labor away from you and just give you what 'they' think you need, that you won't have much incentive to really produce. Thus since Communism started, those economic systems have had to have economic help from the free enterprise systems in the Christian West. Only when Communist countries like Russia and China eased off some of their Marxist principles over the people, and freed up enterprise somewhat in their countries, has their economies gotten established. So all that was about was their finally recognizing that Communism does not work economically, but God's Way does, whether they want to recognize God's principles or not.
 
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Dave L

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No, Communism per Karl Marx's Communist Manifesto, which I listed in the OP before the - mark, is NOT what the early Christians practiced. To say it was is to push Marxist propaganda. Communists that work against Christ exist within today's Christian Church also, even as KGB defectors have warned (Golitsyn for one who was a KGB colonel that defected to U.S. in the 1960s).

A record of an early Christian community exists for Jamestown, with Christians that settled there basically in the wilderness. They learned early on that keeping everything in common did not work, for many starved. From 1609 to 1610 many starved because there was no INCENTIVE to work to produce it.

That's an example of what happens when everyone knows they will receive the same, whether you work or not. Economically it does not work! That has been one of the biggest problems in Communist countries, they have to try and police those who don't work, which is really impossible to truly do in a large country. It means you wind up with a lot of atrocities just to try and get everyone to work.

Yet the Bible way, God's Way, like Apostle Paul said, if a man won't work neither should he eat (2 Thessalonians 3:10).

The settlers at Jamestown the next year applied that Bible principle. If you didn't work, you didn't eat. What you produced you got to keep and trade or sell any extra. That next year no one starved, and there was abundance. THAT... is the 'free market' or 'free enterprise' system! It works, because God created it.

So let's settle the matter about things in common per Apostle Paul...

Paul Teaching To Do Alms, Which is Not By Commandment:


2 Cor 8:7-15
7 Therefore, as ye abound in every thing, in faith, and utterance, and knowledge, and in all diligence, and in your love to us, see that ye abound in this grace also.

8 I speak not by commandment, but by occasion of the forwardness of others, and to prove the sincerity of your love.


9 For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though He was rich, yet for your sakes He became poor, that ye through His poverty might be rich.

10 And herein I give my advice: for this is expedient for you, who have begun before, not only to do, but also to be forward a year ago.

11 Now therefore perform the doing of it; that as there was a readiness to will, so there may be a performance also out of that which ye have.

12 For if there be first a willing mind, it is accepted according to that a man hath, and not according to that he hath not.

13 For I mean not that other men be eased, and ye burdened:


14 But by an equality, that now at this time your abundance may be a supply for their want, that their abundance also may be a supply for your want: that there may be equality:


15 As it is written, 'He that had gathered much had nothing over; and he that had gathered little had no lack.'
KJV


2 Cor 9:7
7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.
KJV




What Paul is describing is doing Alms for other brethren that are needy, and to do it not by command, but via the heart and compassion for them, and not to do it so much that it puts a burden on yourself. This all Churches in Christ and its members still do today.

But under the system of Communism, what happens? The State takes... your abundance and more so that you become one of the needy, because that is a principle that Communist systems use to keep control of the masses, i.e., keep them on the edge of starvation. But the Party, they have access to the abundance because they control it. Because of this, lack of incentive to work was the result, which made economic conditions even worse!

It makes sense that if the State is going to take the results of your labor away from you and just give you what 'they' think you need, that you won't have much incentive to really produce. Thus since Communism started, those economic systems have had to have economic help from the free enterprise systems in the Christian West. Only when Communist countries like Russia and China eased off some of their Marxist principles over the people, and freed up enterprise somewhat in their countries, has their economies gotten established. So all that was about was their finally recognizing that Communism does not work economically, but God's Way does, whether they want to recognize God's principles or not.
So Luke was lying when he said the Church had all things common? They were true Commies in the biblical heavenly sense as we should be.
 
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Davy

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So Luke was lying when he said the Church had all things common? They were true Commies in the biblical heavenly sense as we should be.

No, Communist propaganda is what you are pushing. It is against Christ, and against God's Way. There is no evidence of a State run entity controlling what private property the early Christians had. So saying Apostle Luke pushed such an idea as Communism is a flat lie.
 
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Dave L

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No, Communist propaganda is what you are pushing. It is against Christ, and against God's Way. There is no evidence of a State run entity controlling what private property the early Christians had. So saying Apostle Luke pushed such an idea as Communism is a flat lie.
Early Christianity was pure Communism according to Scripture. Jesus taught it when he demanded we treat others as our equals. Today's church is overrun by pagan philosophies that exist only when people are unequal.

“And all that believed were together, and had all things common; And sold their possessions and goods, and parted them to all men, as every man had need. And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,” Acts 2:44–46 (KJV 1900)

“And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common. And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all. Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, And laid them down at the apostles’ feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.” Acts 4:32–35 (KJV 1900)
 
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All Glory To God

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The supporters of communism/socialism are focusing solely on the fiscal policies of this dreadful ideology. At the same time they are ignoring the social and cultural aspects of it.

I challenge anyone to harmonise the social and cultural polices of communism with biblical Christianity.
 
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Albion

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Early Christianity was pure Communism according to Scripture. Jesus taught it when he demanded we treat others as our equals.
THAT's your idea of Communism? No wonder these discussions develop so many different versions of the same topic.

Early Christianity was certainly not Communism, pure or otherwise, nor was Jesus into that. Nor does a voluntary agreement to share possessions constitute "Communism." Monks and nuns are not Communists, for instance. Communism means much more than that.

Jesus was not political, but to the extent that he taught anything along those lines, he said to be obedient to those in authority even as he did so himself.
 
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Dave L

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THAT's your idea of Communism? No wonder these discussions develop so many different versions of the same topic.

Early Christianity was certainly not Communism, pure or otherwise, nor was Jesus into that.

He was not political, but to the extent that he taught anything along those lines, he said to be obedient to those in authority even as he did so himself.
Treating others as your equal according to Jesus is PURE Communism. Luke says they had all things COMMON. Listen to scripture, not the politics of hate.
 
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Albion

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Treating others as your equal according to Jesus is PURE Communism. Luke says they had all things COMMON. Listen to scripture, not the politics of hate.
Read what I wrote about the early Christians and the voluntary sharing of possessions. It has nothing to do with Communism, a political system that preaches and practices total rule by force, owns all the means of production unlike the early Christians, and is a form of government in which the leaders live well while their subjects do not. There's really no comparison.
 
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Dave L

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Read what I wrote about the early Christians and the voluntary sharing of possessions. It has nothing to do with Communism, a political system that preaches and practices total rule by force, owns all the means of production unlike the early Christians, and is a form of government in which the leaders live well while their subjects do not. There's really no comparison.
You are defining "Christian Communism" with "worldly Communism". They are totally different in motive. Abraham Kuyper (do you know who this is?) says; In Acts the church practiced "Jerusalem Communism". Abraham Kuiper explains that Jerusalem "communism" says "what's mine is yours." Modern communism says "what's yours is mine."

If you love others as yourself (Christianity) what is yours is theirs.
 
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