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Do Creationists Believe in Talking Snakes?

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I'm a christian scientist and I derive my view from my personal studies of geology and paleontology. Not even necessarily from a textbook but rather I understand it through personal observations.

Sorry, you would need a time machine in order to confirm the millions of years. The only way to truly know if the earth is young is to first believe the account of the Bible on the matter. Then from there, one will be able to accept the evidences that back up a young earth. Right now, any evidence for a young earth will be immediately be rejected by you. Our foundation first starts with the Bible and then we are able to go from there. I believe most who believe in an Old Earth and Evolution do so not because they derived these ideas from the Bible, but they got these ideas from men who reject God. The observable evidence for an old Earth or Evolution is not obvious to the average observer. People make assumptions about the age of rocks, and they make clever stories about what bones say. But they were never really there to observe these things for sure. They are merely guessing about things in the past.
 
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Anybody have a link to something that can debunk the posts about reptile bones/our ears or the posts about amphibians etc?

These concepts cannot be debunked beyond mere conjecture.

The fundamentals are quite simple.

Imagine you are in a room with a chair. And you go to sit down. You sit in the chair and all is well.

But imagine you go to sit in a chair, and the chair is not present. You fall to the ground.

Now consider the earth's layers. Much like a cake, and much like a chair, the lower layers must be present in time prior to the upper layers, just as a chair must be present in time, before you sit on it. Else you would fall to the ground.

This is what we call the scientific law of superposition.

It really is somewhat of an axiom. It is utterly true, and it logically conforms with everything we know about physical reality.



Once we understand the temporal order of layers, oldest on the bottom and youngest on the top, we can observe the order of fossils in these rocks. Fossils in deeper rocks pre-existed fossils in shallower rocks.

Paleozoic rock consists or primitive species. Ediacaran biota, trilobites, sponges, corals, early cephalopods, gastropods, arthropods etc. Fish appear early on after annelids. Tetrapodomorps after fish, amphibians, frogamander, turtles with half shells. Eventually reptiles appear by the carboniferous. By the mesozoic you get dinosaurs, reptile/mammal hybrids and reptile/bird hybrids. And by the cenozoic you get diversification of mega fauna and cetaceans.

The key point of all of this however is the summation of phylogenetic trees amongst independent fields of study. Which is to say that phylogenetic trees of paleontology construction by observation of this order, is an identical match to phylogenetic trees construction with use of cladistics in other fields of study, such as in protein studies or genome related studies.

Which is to say that, literally, based on the genetic relatedness of modern day species, and protein studies, studies of cytochrome C or studies of anatomy of modern day living species, we can predict not only where, but when and how deep bones will be in the earth.

Indeed, in studies by Sarich and Wilson on proteins in primates, biologists actually predicted where fossils would be found with a higher precision than even paleontologists themselves, such is the case with the discovery of sahelanthropus.


Deniers of evolution will never have a response to this. Denial is their only option. But unfortunately for them, the truth is grounded so fundamentally and intimately with the real world, that they may as well be denying the fact that a chair must be present before they can sit.

To help explain in very simple terms, a fish is more genetically similar to an amphibian than it is to reptiles, and fish fossils are found closer to amphibians than to reptiles in the rock record and deep in the earth.

Mammals are genetically more similar to reptiles than to amphibians and are more genetically similar to amphibians than to fish.

And mammal fossils are closer to reptiles than amphibians and closer to amphibians than fish deep in the earth in the rock record.

And this is a broad explanation, but it actually is true, even at exceptionally high precision. For example, a cetacean like pakicetus is found closer in the rock record to whales than it is to fish, and ungulates of today are more genetically similar to whales than to fish. And yet whales clearly look more like fish than they do to elephants. Evolution easily explains this.

Think that this all ends with animals? Think again. Flowering plants are genetically more similar to seeding plants than they are to non vascular plants. Can you guess what plant fossils are closer to eachother in the rock record? That's right, seeded and flowering plants are closer to one another than either is to non vascular plants.

All of the above more specifically has to do with initial appearance of fossils. Which is very important to understand.

Anyway,

Our genetics are a 1 to 1 match with the depths of fossils deep in the earth.

And the only possible conclusion for this, is evolution. Well, or denial.
 
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Job 33:6

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Do you attend church? If so, what’s their stance on evolution?

For many years.

Speaking of which, Good Friday is my favorite of days. It is the day I found Christ :).

My Church focuses more on contentions with atheism and naturalism. It's not so much science that is the issue, but rather, it's the idea that some believe that science replaces God, rather than it being a product of God.

Many founding fathers of science and scientists worldwide are believers. But some people who don't believe in God, tend to want to claim science for their own agenda of disproving God. Rather than viewing science as a God given gift in investigation of creation.

Because that's ultimately what is being discussed. We are discussing God's creation.

At its core, science is not about who's secular or who's not secular. It's not about who's an atheist or who's a Christian or a buddhist or jew etc. It's simply about what is.


If I take a rock and I throw it at a window, the rock moves at certain kinematic projections toward the window. Its force breaks the window and it falls based on the gravitational potential energy applied to it. It doesn't matter if a jew throws the rock or a buddhist throws the rock or a muslim or atheist throws the rock etc.

No matter who experiences creation, we all experience it the same way. It simply is as it is. It is as God made it.

And when it comes to the theory of evolution, young earthers don't want to hear it, but it simply is.

Just as the chair in the room simply is.
 
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Job 33:6

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These concepts cannot be debunked beyond mere conjecture.

The fundamentals are quite simple.

Imagine you are in a room with a chair. And you go to sit down. You sit in the chair and all is well.

But imagine you go to sit in a chair, and the chair is not present. You fall to the ground.

Now consider the earth's layers. Much like a cake, and much like a chair, the lower layers must be present in time prior to the upper layers, just as a chair must be present in time, before you sit on it. Else you would fall to the ground.

This is what we call the scientific law of superposition.

It really is somewhat of an axiom. It is utterly true, and it logically conforms with everything we know about physical reality.



Once we understand the temporal order of layers, oldest on the bottom and youngest on the top, we can observe the order of fossils in these rocks. Fossils in deeper rocks pre-existed fossils in shallower rocks.

Paleozoic rock consists or primitive species. Ediacaran biota, trilobites, sponges, corals, early cephalopods, gastropods, arthropods etc. Fish appear early on after annelids. Tetrapodomorps after fish, amphibians, frogamander, turtles with half shells. Eventually reptiles appear by the carboniferous. By the mesozoic you get dinosaurs, reptile/mammal hybrids and reptile/bird hybrids. And layer by the cenozoic you get diversification of mega fauna and cetaceans.

The key point of all of this however is the summation of phylogenetic trees amongst independent fields of study. Which is to say that phylogenetic trees of paleontology construction by observation of this order, is an identical match to phylogenetic trees construction with use of cladistics in other fields of study, such as in protein studies or genome related studies.

Which is to say that, literally, based on the genetic relatedness of modern day species, and protein studies, studies of cytochrome C or studies of anatomy of modern day living species, we can predict not only where, but when and how deep bones will be in the earth.

Indeed, in studies by Sarich and Wilson on proteins in primates, biologists actually predicted where fossils would be found with a higher precision than even paleontologists themselves, such is the case with the discovery of sahelanthropus.


Deniers of evolution will never have a response to this. Denial is their only option. But unfortunately for them, the truth is grounded so fundamentally and intimately with the real world, that they may as well be denying the fact that a chair must be present before they can sit.

An additional figure to help explain:
Screenshot_20210403-000830.png
 
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Anybody have a link to something that can debunk the posts about reptile bones/our ears or the posts about amphibians being evolved from fish etc?

There is no need to debunk it because it is merely a theory or conjecture not based on any facts that we can observe to see happen before our eyes. Remember, it takes millions of years for evolution to happen. So unless you can live for millions of years to observe such a thing, then by all means go ahead and believe in what Darwin taught. Anyone who is honest with themselves (with no outside of agenda in trying to add something into the Bible) is going to read Evolution into Genesis chapter 1. It does not simply exist in the text whatsoever. What Genesis 1 says and what Darwinism teaches are entirely two different things. Read Genesis 1 and ask God to show you what it is plainly saying. Do not try to cram something into Genesis 1 where something does not belong. Just read it and believe it. If you read Genesis 1 literally and just believe it wholly, you cannot in good conscience also believe in Evolution. You have to let go of man's way of thinking. Trust God and His Word by faith, and you will see.
 
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An additional figure to help explain:
View attachment 297223

It takes faith to believe in pretty pictures. That is all that is. A picture. It is not proof of any actual observance. You did not live millions of years to observe this happening. So you have faith in what Darwin believed. Darwin did not believe in God when he came up with Evolution. So this is a theory invented to replace God and it was not so much a theory that is based on any actual observance of Science. Just guessing. That is all that is going on here.
 
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These concepts cannot be debunked beyond mere conjecture.

The fundamentals are quite simple.

Imagine you are in a room with a chair. And you go to sit down. You sit in the chair and all is well.

But imagine you go to sit in a chair, and the chair is not present. You fall to the ground.

Now consider the earth's layers. Much like a cake, and much like a chair, the lower layers must be present in time prior to the upper layers, just as a chair must be present in time, before you sit on it. Else you would fall to the ground.

This is what we call the scientific law of superposition.

It really is somewhat of an axiom. It is utterly true, and it logically conforms with everything we know about physical reality.



Once we understand the temporal order of layers, oldest on the bottom and youngest on the top, we can observe the order of fossils in these rocks. Fossils in deeper rocks pre-existed fossils in shallower rocks.

Paleozoic rock consists or primitive species. Ediacaran biota, trilobites, sponges, corals, early cephalopods, gastropods, arthropods etc. Fish appear early on after annelids. Tetrapodomorps after fish, amphibians, frogamander, turtles with half shells. Eventually reptiles appear by the carboniferous. By the mesozoic you get dinosaurs, reptile/mammal hybrids and reptile/bird hybrids. And by the cenozoic you get diversification of mega fauna and cetaceans.

The key point of all of this however is the summation of phylogenetic trees amongst independent fields of study. Which is to say that phylogenetic trees of paleontology construction by observation of this order, is an identical match to phylogenetic trees construction with use of cladistics in other fields of study, such as in protein studies or genome related studies.

Which is to say that, literally, based on the genetic relatedness of modern day species, and protein studies, studies of cytochrome C or studies of anatomy of modern day living species, we can predict not only where, but when and how deep bones will be in the earth.

Indeed, in studies by Sarich and Wilson on proteins in primates, biologists actually predicted where fossils would be found with a higher precision than even paleontologists themselves, such is the case with the discovery of sahelanthropus.


Deniers of evolution will never have a response to this. Denial is their only option. But unfortunately for them, the truth is grounded so fundamentally and intimately with the real world, that they may as well be denying the fact that a chair must be present before they can sit.

To help explain in very simple terms, a fish is more genetically similar to an amphibian than it is to reptiles, and fish fossils are found closer to amphibians than to reptiles in the rock record and deep in the earth.

Mammals are genetically more similar to reptiles than to amphibians and are more genetically similar to amphibians than to fish.

And mammal fossils are closer to reptiles than amphibians and closer to amphibians than fish deep in the earth in the rock record.

And this is a broad explanation, but it actually is true, even at exceptionally high precision. For example, a cetacean like pakicetus is found closer in the rock record to whales than it is to fish, and ungulates of today are more genetically similar to whales than to fish. And yet whales clearly look more like fish than they do to elephants. Evolution easily explains this.

Think that this all ends with animals? Think again. Flowering plants are genetically more similar to seeding plants than they are to non vascular plants. Can you guess what plant fossils are closer to eachother in the rock record? That's right, seeded and flowering plants are closer to one another than either is to non vascular plants.

All of the above more specifically has to do with initial appearance of fossils. Which is very important to understand.

Anyway,

Our genetics are a 1 to 1 match with the depths of fossils deep in the earth.

And the only possible conclusion for this, is evolution. Well, or denial.

Look, my friend. You cannot prove Macro-Evolution because we do not see fish evolving into reptiles and then into birds because Macro-Evolution requires you to have faith in the magic bullet of millions of years that you cannot prove unless you had a time machine. Similarities in God's creation does not prove Macro-Evolution. You need hard core facts that one animal species can actuall transform over time into another animal kind. The Bible actually speaks of animal kinds. This would not make any sense if God intended for all creatures to evolve. Just read Genesis 1 and it does not sound like an evolution of animals taking place. Birds and fish were created on the same day.

I mean, have you actually prayed and asked God what He truly meant when He had written the following words in Scripture?

“And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth. And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.” (Genesis 1:20-23).​

I don't get any impresson of Evolution out of this passage. I just see God creating the marine life and the birds on the same day together. It does not say that God created the birds out of the fish.

Also, on day 6 we read about how God created the cattle, and then the creeping things (insects), etc.

“And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.” (Genesis 1:24-25).​

Yet, in Evolution the creeping thing (insects) came before cattle. So one has to choose what they want to believe. Do you want to believe what the Bible plainly says or do you want to believe Darwin. The choice is yours. I choose to believe the Bible because it is God's Holy Word and God cannot be wrong or make mistakes.
 
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Here is another silly thing that Macro-Evolutionists have to ignore.

Do you see many transitional living creatures today?

Do we see any Lucy's living today whereby we can check it's DNA and prove that it is half human and half monkey?

This is where Evolution is banrupt.

You got monkeys in zoos today. But where is the living Lucy's of our day? Think people. You are believing a lie on a cooked up story on bones. You need real hardcore observable evidence.

Don't give me a bones story. Give me a real proof of living transitional creatures alive today. We should expect to see many cases of this taking place before our eyes with many phases of the animal kingdom in transition, but we simply do not see that by observable eyes.

Where are the cavemen? The gorilla is still here. But where are the cavemen? You might see them on TV and or in pretty pictures, but thats about it.

I mean, there should at least be one transitional unbreakable chain of the phase of LIVING CREATURES between either the fishes and reptiles, or reptiles to birds today. It is very convenient that all the TRANSITIONAL LIVING EVIDENCE is not to be found in great numbers (Which is what we should expect to see). So a bones story is needed. Anyone can tell a story on bones or rocks. But the real proof is in seeing and observing the here and now.

We should see TONS of living transitional creatues and we should be able to prove Evolution by just looking at these transitional creatures. But they do not exist. Thus it is only a theory that lives in the minds of men to explain away God and or His Word.

It requires FAITH for you to believe in a bones and rocks story. But I would rather have FAITH in what God's Word plainly says.
 
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I would like for you both to read Genesis chapter 1 without any thinking of Evolution for a moment. Let Genesis 1 permeate you. Just read the text and ask God on what He is trying to say in Genesis 1 to you. Don't let any outside thoughts on what you believe to be Science to enter in. Really think about how God is creating things. Just let the text of God's Word talk to you alone. Don't let any outside ideas come in. He is giving commands and things are just happening. Things are being created by His Word. Read it, my friends and talk to God about it. Read it several times if you have to. Let this chapter really sink in inside of you and believe it. Put it in your heart.
 
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It takes faith to believe in pretty pictures. That is all that is. A picture. It is not proof of any actual observance. You did not live millions of years to observe this happening. So you have faith in what Darwin believed. Darwin did not believe in God when he came up with Evolution. So this is a theory invented to replace God and it was not so much a theory that is based on any actual observance of Science. Just guessing. That is all that is going on here.

It's a diagram. But I dig up fossils regularly in my personal life and the diagram is an accurate depiction of what I see.
 
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Job 33:6

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Look, my friend. You cannot Macro-Evolution because we do not see fish evolving into reptiles and then into birds because Macro-Evolution requires you to have faith in the magic bullet of millions of years that you cannot prove unless you had a time machine. Similarities in God's creation does not prove Macro-Evolution. You need hard core facts that one animal species can actuall transform over time into another animal kind. The Bible actually speaks of animal kinds. This would not make any sense if God intended for all creatures to evolve. Just read Genesis 1 and it does not sound like an evolution of animals taking place. Birds and fish were created on the same day.

I mean, have you actually prayed and asked God what He truly meant when He had written the following words in Scripture?

“And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth. And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.” (Genesis 1:20-23).​

I don't get any impresson of Evolution out of this passage. I just see God creating the marine life and the birds on the same day together. It does not say that God created the birds out of the fish.

Also, on day 6 we read about how God created the cattle, and then the creeping things (insects), etc.

“And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.” (Genesis 1:24-25).​

Yet, in Evolution the creeping thing (insects) came before cattle. So one has to choose what they want to believe. Do you want to believe what the Bible plainly says or do you want to believe Darwin. The choice is yours. I choose to believe the Bible because it is God's Holy Word and God cannot be wrong or make mistakes.

Deep time is understood through observations of structural features that logically could not form in any short period of time. Such as the 5+ million varves of the green river formation, or in things like double overturned angular unconformities. I'd be happy to give further detail if you're interested.

Young earth creationism simply can't logically account for what we see.
 
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renniks

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An additional figure to help explain:
View attachment 297223
That doesn't reflect reality.
So when these fossilized animals (and plants) are found in the earth’s rock sequences in a particular order of first appearance, such as animals without backbones (invertebrates) in lower layers followed progressively upward by fish, then amphibians, reptiles, birds, and finally mammals (e.g., in the Colorado Plateau region of the United States), it is concluded, and thus almost universally taught, that this must have been the order in which these animals evolved during those vast eons of time.

The vast eons of time are unproven and unproveable, being based on assumptions about how quickly sedimentary rock layers were deposited in the unobserved past. Instead, there is overwhelming evidence that most of the sedimentary rock layers were deposited rapidly.
Put a bone in a field and it degrades very quickly... You need rapid deposits to preserve fossils.
 
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Job 33:6

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That doesn't reflect reality.
So when these fossilized animals (and plants) are found in the earth’s rock sequences in a particular order of first appearance, such as animals without backbones (invertebrates) in lower layers followed progressively upward by fish, then amphibians, reptiles, birds, and finally mammals (e.g., in the Colorado Plateau region of the United States), it is concluded, and thus almost universally taught, that this must have been the order in which these animals evolved during those vast eons of time.

The vast eons of time are unproven and unproveable, being based on assumptions about how quickly sedimentary rock layers were deposited in the unobserved past. Instead, there is overwhelming evidence that most of the sedimentary rock layers were deposited rapidly.
Put a bone in a field and it degrades very quickly... You need rapid deposits to preserve fossils.

In my opinion, It does reflect reality. As a geologist, I can attest to it. I have seen nothing that contradicts it of the countless rocks and fossils I've examined, which are of a number far greater than the average person. Yes, you can find questionable websites with blurred unconfirmed cases of cave paintings of dinosaurs. Or maybe you can find a picture of a weird shaped human footprint inside a t-rex foot print (as if a rex was the only prehistoric animal that lived, quite the questionable coincidence). But overall, these instances appear to be similar in credibility to blurred images of bigfoot and the lochness monster, or ufos and ghost finder tv shows and things of that nature. I'm much more comfortable trusting in what I and my colleagues see for ourselves first hand.

I'm otherwise glad that you have correctly understood what I have been describing.

So, once we understand that this succession is present, there are really a couple ways we can move forward based on how this forum discussion is going.

We can go in a direction of discussing how we know the earth is old, which I am happy to talk about.

Or we can go toward a discussion of how we know that this succession is representative of common descent via evolution, as opposed to some other explanation for why a succession exists (bones sorted by density during a flood or some animals swimming better than others etc.).

These are two different topics. Do you have a preference of which way to go?
 
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renniks

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In my opinion, It does reflect reality. As a geologist, I can attest to it. I have seen nothing that contradicts it of the countless rocks and fossils I've examined, which are of a number far greater than the average person. Yes, you can find questionable websites with blurred unconfirmed cases of cave paintings of dinosaurs. Or maybe you can find a picture of a weird shaped human footprint inside a t-rex foot print (as if a rex was the only prehistoric animal that lived, quite the questionable coincidence). But overall, these instances appear to be similar in credibility to blurred images of bigfoot and the lochness monster, or ufos and ghost finder tv shows and things of that nature. I'm much more comfortable trusting in what I and my colleagues see for ourselves first hand.

I'm otherwise glad that you have correctly understood what I have been describing.

So, once we understand that this succession is present, there are really a couple ways we can move forward based on how this forum discussion is going.

We can go in a direction of discussing how we know the earth is old, which I am happy to talk about.

Or we can go toward a discussion of how we know that this succession is representative of common descent via evolution, as opposed to some other explanation for why a succession exists (bones sorted by density during a flood or some animals swimming better than others etc.).

These are two different topics. Do you have a preference of which way to go?
I don't really care if the Earth is old. Because that doesn't affect the subject. I think the big bang confirms a creator. But I believe life on earth is very young, relatively speaking.
 
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I would like for you both to read Genesis chapter 1 without any thinking of Evolution for a moment. Let Genesis 1 permeate you. Just read the text and ask God on what He is trying to say in Genesis 1 to you. Don't let any outside thoughts on what you believe to be Science to enter in. Really think about how God is creating things. Just let the text of God's Word talk to you alone. Don't let any outside ideas come in. He is giving commands and things are just happening. Things are being created by His Word. Read it, my friends and talk to God about it. Read it several times if you have to. Let this chapter really sink in inside of you and believe it. Put it in your heart.
I’ll do that either later today or tomorrow.
 
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