The Death and True Resurrection of Jesus.

[HARK!]

What level of Koine Greek have you completed studies in?

The credentials fallacy can be categorized as a genetic fallacy, since it focuses on the origin of the argument rather than on the argument itself. More specifically, it can be categorized as a type of ad hominem attack, since it personally targets the individual who is making the argument.

The Credentials Fallacy: What It Is and How to Respond to It – Effectiviology

 

[HARK!]

Agreed.
I have to wonder how anyone can make sense of the CLV rendering of the passage?

I have no difficulty making sense of the word for word translation.

It would seem to introduce even more difficulties.

Where are you finding difficulty?

 

[bbbbbbb]

You haven't prove nothing, absolutely nothing! All you have prove is that you want to pick and choose what to believe and what not to believe. That shorten your knowledge in the word of God tremendously. I already prove you can' get three days and three nights From Good Friday to Sunday Morning.

It really comes down to whether or not what Jesus said was to be understood literally. If He did not meant three days and three nights, then we open a Pandora's box of difficulties.

 

[Bro.T]

It really comes down to whether or not what Jesus said was to be understood literally. If He did not meant three days and three nights, then we open a Pandora's box of difficulties.

Jesus was always being inquired of by the Jews for a sign. He gave them one in reference to His death and resurrection. He told them that just like Jonas, He would be in the earth 3 days and 3 nights. In the Gospel of John Jesus again gave the Jews a sign by telling them if this temple was destroyed He would raise it up in 3 days. Jesus was referring to His body.

(Matthew 12:38) Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. 39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: 40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

So we are going to pretend Jonas wasn't in the belly of a whale. Now the Lord had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three night. (Jonas 1:17)

I guess you need to see if Jonas situation was literally as well to.

 

[Bro.T]

Well no that is what YOU are doing! Yes, scripture has proven your timeline wrong! The eyewitnesses on the road to Emmaus have proven it wrong, not I...and you completely ignore them.

Mary was first before the eyewitness on the road to Emmaus. You can't use that.

 

[Bro.T]

You keep quoting from the book of Daniel and claiming, that Daniel said that Jesus rose on Saturday. Here is the verse from Daniel that you keep referring to.

Daniel 9:27
And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering.

Where does Daniel state that Jesus was in the grave on Wednesday night. Wednesday night is actually Thursday in Hebrew time. Remember, Wednesday night is the reverse of our western time.

In Hebrew time, Wednesday night is the six hours after sunset on Tuesday. So your saying Jesus was buried on our Tuesday night?

Everyone is getting a sore head trying to convert back and forth, from Hebrew time to western time.

It is unclear in Daniel who stops the sacrifice. Which 'firm covenant' is being referred to here?

You cannot cite Daniel as proof of anything regarding the burial of Jesus.

When all is said and done, we know Jesus rose on the third day and not after the third day.

We also know that Jesus rose on the first day because the scripture states this is so.

Mark 16:9
Now after He had risen early on the first day of the week, He first appeared to Mary Magdalene, from whom He had cast out seven demons.

Luke 24:21
But we were hoping that it was He who was going to redeem Israel. Indeed, besides all this, it is the third day since these things happened. (The eyewitnesses, the two disciples on the road to Emmaus)

Three places shows Jesus rose before SUNDAY

In Mark 16: 1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him. 2 And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun. 3 And they said among themselves, Who shall roll us away the stone from the door of the sepulchre? 4 And when they looked, they saw that the stone was rolled away: for it was very great. 5 And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment; and they were affrighted. 6 And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him.

(Luke 24:1) Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them. (2) And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre. (3) And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus. (4) And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments: (5) And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among the dead? (6) He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee,

(John 20:1) The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre. (2) Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him.

Three places in the Bible saying the same thing, Jesus was gone or risen before Sunday Morning. You still can't get three days and three nights from Good Friday to Sunday Morning!

 

[Sheila Davis]

Well yes you are wrong. Have already proven it. The Sabbath ends just after sunset on Saturday when 3 stars are seen...anytime after that is considered as Sunday...they came early Sunday morning around dawn and He was gone. So He resurrected sometime during the night on Sunday. Do you know what "boker tov" means? How about "laylah tov" or "erev tov"?

you can find the definition of almost any language on Google what you can't find is the truth concerning people - may you be blessed - scripture tells us not to argue over scripture.

 

[Bro.T]

Totally incorrect. First and seventh ULB are called "holy convocations." They are never called a Sabbath anywhere in either testament. Neither day has a day of preparation since preparing and cooking food is specifically permitted on both days.

Exodus 12:15-16
15 Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread; even the first day ye shall put away leaven out of your houses: for whosoever eateth leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that soul shall be cut off from Israel.
16 And in the first day there shall be an holy convocation, and in the seventh day there shall be an holy convocation to you; no manner of work shall be done in them, save that which every man must eat, that only may be done of you.​

There was only one Sabbath in passion week, the weekly Sabbath and there was only one "Parasceue," which means "preparation," then and now in Greek, the Friday before the weekly Sabbath.
Is the Passover lamb ever called a sacrifice in the O.T.?

Well that's true it didn't actually say sabbath day, but we still call it a high holy sabbath day because the other feast days are call sabbaths.

Let's go to Leviticus 23: 1 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, Concerning the feasts of the Lord, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, even these are my feasts.

All of these are not feast, but you notice the Lord says even these are my feasts.

3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the Lord in all your dwellings. 4 These are the feasts of the Lord, even holy convocations, which ye shall proclaim in their seasons.

All so notice that these are the feast to Lord and not the Jews.


5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the Lord's passover.

Now the passover don't say have a holy convocation, but we all go to church and take the bread and wine.

6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast of unleavened bread unto the Lord: seven days ye must eat unleavened bread.
7 In the first day ye shall have an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein. 8 But ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord seven days: in the seventh day is an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein.

23 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, 24 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of trumpets, an holy convocation. 25 Ye shall do no servile work therein: but ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord.

26 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, 27 Also on the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of atonement: it shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall afflict your souls, and offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord. 28 And ye shall do no work in that same day: for it is a day of atonement, to make an atonement for you before the Lord your God.
29 For whatsoever soul it be that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people. 30 And whatsoever soul it be that doeth any work in that same day, the same soul will I destroy from among his people. 31 Ye shall do no manner of work: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings. 32 It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath.

Notice on this day you afflict your souls, meaning fast.

33 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, 34 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, The fifteenth day of this seventh month shall be the feast of tabernacles for seven days unto the Lord. 35 On the first day shall be an holy convocation: ye shall do no servile work therein. 36 Seven days ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord: on the eighth day shall be an holy convocation unto you; and ye shall offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord: it is a solemn assembly; and ye shall do no servile work therein.

37 These are the feasts of the Lord, which ye shall proclaim to be holy convocations, to offer an offering made by fire unto the Lord, a burnt offering, and a meat offering, a sacrifice, and drink offerings, every thing upon his day:
38 Beside the sabbaths of the Lord, and beside your gifts, and beside all your vows, and beside all your freewill offerings, which ye give unto the Lord.
39 Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when ye have gathered in the fruit of the land, ye shall keep a feast unto the Lord seven days: on the first day shall be a sabbath, and on the eighth day shall be a sabbath.


Notice this high sabbath day have a first day an a eight day. Unleavened bread have first day and seven day.

Is the Passover lamb ever called a sacrifice in the O.T.?

In the OT the Atonements was a high sabbath that represented the sacrifice lamb, which was Jesus, for the day of passover, which his death.

 

[Bro.T]

you can find the definition of almost any language on Google what you can't find is the truth concerning people - may you be blessed - scripture tells us not to argue over scripture.

I agree we shouldn't argue, but let's keep in mind what Paul says in 2 Timothy 4: 2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

 

[Der Alte]

Well that's true it didn't actually say sabbath day, but we still call it a high holy sabbath day because the other feast days are call sabbaths. * * *

Right! If the OT does not specifically call 1st and 7th ULB a Sabbath we have no authority to arbitrarily call them a Sabbath. And as I have shown, preparing and cooking food is specifically permitted on 1st and 7th ULB therefore neither had or required a day of preparation.
There was only one Sabbath in passion week, the weekly Sabbath and there was only one "Parasceue," which means "preparation," and that was the day before the weekly Sabbath.
If there were 2 Sabbaths there would have been 2 "parasceue"/preparation and to distinguish between them the author's would have had to identify which one they were talking about at any given time.

Justin [A.D. 110-165.] The First Apology. Chap. LXVII.
… And on the day called Sunday,76 all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability,77 and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given,78 and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. ***
But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.​

 

[Der Alte]

On seventeen separate occasions, Jesus or His friends spoke of the timetable involving His death and resurrection.
Ten times it was specified that the resurrection would take place on the "third day" (Mat.16:21; 17:23; 20:19; Mark 9:31; 10:34, Luke 9:22; 13:32; 18:33; 24:7,46).

• On five occasions they said, "in three days" (Matthew 26:61; 27:40, Mark 15:29, John 2:19-20).
• Twice they used the phrase, "after three days" (Matthew 27:63, Mark 8:31).
• And one time only Jesus spoke of His death as "three days and three nights" (Matthew 12:40).

Without question, all of these various expressions are used to describe the very same event. There seems to be no controversy regarding this point. "The third day," "in three days," "after three days," and "three days and three nights" are equivalent terms used in the scripture in reference to the resurrection of Jesus.
Expressions Cannot Be Literal
Now we ask the question: Can all of these expressions be taken in a strictly literal sense and still harmonize with each other? Absolutely not! For example, "after three days" would certainly have to be interpreted as longer than seventy-two hours. "In three days" could mean anytime less than seventy-two hours, and "three days and three nights" could only mean exactly seventy-two hours to the second. And "the third day" presents even greater problems as we shall notice in a moment.
Does this sound terribly confusing? If so, it is only because men have placed their own interpretation upon the meaning of God's Word. We must let the scripture explain itself, and especially, we must let Christ provide definitions for the words which He spoke. It would be a mammoth mistake to seize upon any one of the expressions used and force its strict compliance with our interpretation without reference to the other sixteen texts on the subject.
Inclusive Reckoning
The only way we can harmonize all of these apparently contradictory statements of Jesus is to understand them in the light of inclusive reckoning of time. This was the method used throughout the scripture in computing time, and we must apply the same method now, unless we want mass confusion. The unreasonable insistence upon the use of twentieth century English idioms of speech to interpret first century Greek or Hebrew has led to some extreme views indeed. Jesus and His friends spoke and wrote in harmony with the common literacy usage of the day, and that usage recognized inclusive reckoning of time. In simple language, this means that any part of a day was counted as a whole day.
Before we turn to the scripture for confirmation of this principle, let us read the authoritative statement of the Jewish Encyclopedia on the matter.
"A short time in the morning of the seventh day is counted as the seventh day; circumcision takes place on the eighth day, even though, of the first day only a few minutes after the birth of the child, these being counted as one day." Jewish Encyclopedia, Volume 4, page 475.

How clearly this defines the Hebrew method of computing time. Any small part of a day was reckoned as the entire twenty-four hour period. It is the Hebrew form of speech and language. Scores of contradictions would appear in both Old and New Testament if this principle were ignored. We must compare Scripture with Scripture and use the idiom of the language in which the scripture was written. Inclusive reckoning was taken for granted by all writers of the Scripture.
Three Days and Three Nights

 

[HARK!]

Right! If the OT does not specifically call 1st and 7th ULB a Sabbath we have no authority to arbitrarily call them a Sabbath. And as I have shown, preparing and cooking food is specifically permitted on 1st and 7th ULB therefore neither had or required a day of preparation.

Pesach is in fact a required preparation day for the first of Hag Matzot.

Yom Kippurim, Yom Teruah, the 1st and 8th days of Sukkot, are specifically mentioned as Shabbats

We are to cease from our work on these days.

(CLV) Lv 23:7
On the first day you shall come to have a holy meeting, when you shall do no occupational work at all.

(CLV) Lv 23:8
And you will bring near a fire offering to Yahweh seven days. On the seventh day is a holy meeting, when you shall do no occupational work at all.

We are we are to cease from our work on the 1st and seventh days of Hag Matzot

Shabbat means cease.

 

[HARK!]

On seventeen separate occasions, Jesus or His friends spoke of the timetable involving His death and resurrection.
Ten times it was specified that the resurrection would take place on the "third day" (Mat.16:21; 17:23; 20:19; Mark 9:31; 10:34, Luke 9:22; 13:32; 18:33; 24:7,46).

The word on appears nowhere in the Greek manuscripts for any of these verses.

On five occasions they said, "in three days" (Matthew 26:61; 27:40, Mark 15:29, John 2:19-20).

What in three days? These verses say that the temple will be rebuilt in three days. Just because the temple has been rebuilt; does not mean that it is active. In other words none of these verse say that he would be risen in three days.

Twice they used the phrase, "after three days" (Matthew 27:63, Mark 8:31).

Both of these verses say that he would rise after three days. This would occur after the temple was rebuilt in three days,

And one time only Jesus spoke of His death as "three days and three nights" (Matthew 12:40).

There is our sign. I take Yahshua at his word, all of the above.

I don't however try to diminish or dismiss what he actually said, or make him say something that he didn't actually say.

Here is a prime example of why we shouldn't trust in translators and commentary to reveal the truth of scripture.

Let us look to 1 Thessalonians 5:21.

 

[prodromos]

The credentials fallacy can be categorized as a genetic fallacy, since it focuses on the origin of the argument rather than on the argument itself. More specifically, it can be categorized as a type of ad hominem attack, since it personally targets the individual who is making the argument.

The Credentials Fallacy: What It Is and How to Respond to It – Effectiviology

If you were offering medical advice, it would be important to know what, if any, medical qualifications you had. It is no different if you are offering linguistic advice you are not qualified to give. No fallacy involved.

 

[HARK!]

If you were offering medical advice, it would be important to know what, if any, medical qualifications you had. It is no different if you are offering linguistic advice you are not qualified to give. No fallacy involved.

I'm not offering Medical advice.

What level of Logic have you completed studies in?

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

Mary was first before the eyewitness on the road to Emmaus. You can't use that.

Of course I can because it proves your timeline wrong. And that has nothing to do with my point...and is no proof of your timeline.

 

[Der Alte]

Pesach is in fact a required preparation day for the first of Hag Matzot.
Yom Kippurim, Yom Teruah, the 1st and 8th days of Sukkot, are specifically mentioned as Shabbats
We are to cease from our work on these days.
(CLV) Lv 23:7
On the first day you shall come to have a holy meeting, when you shall do no occupational work at all.
(CLV) Lv 23:8
And you will bring near a fire offering to Yahweh seven days. On the seventh day is a holy meeting, when you shall do no occupational work at all.
We are we are to cease from our work on the 1st and seventh days of Hag Matzot
Shabbat means cease.

1st and 7th ULB are never called a Sabbath in the OT. Preparing and cooking food is specifically permitted.

Exodus 12:15-16
15 Seven days shall ye eat unleavened bread; even the first day ye shall put away leaven out of your houses: for whosoever eateth leavened bread from the first day until the seventh day, that soul shall be cut off from Israel.
16 And in the first day there shall be an holy convocation, and in the seventh day there shall be an holy convocation to you; no manner of work shall be done in them, save that which every man must eat, that only may be done of you.​

 

[Yeshua HaDerekh]

you can find the definition of almost any language on Google what you can't find is the truth concerning people - may you be blessed - scripture tells us not to argue over scripture.

So go and look them up then...you may learn something

 

[HARK!]

1st and 7th ULB are never called a Sabbath in the OT.

However, a command for cessation from work is in fact a command for cessation. I pick up on these axioms intuitively.

 

[klutedavid]

Three places shows Jesus rose before SUNDAY

In Mark 16: 1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him. 2 And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun. 3 And they said among themselves, Who shall roll us away the stone from the door of the sepulchre? 4 And when they looked, they saw that the stone was rolled away: for it was very great. 5 And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment; and they were affrighted. 6 And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him.

(Luke 24:1) Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them. (2) And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre. (3) And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus. (4) And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments: (5) And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among the dead? (6) He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee,

(John 20:1) The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre. (2) Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him.

Three places in the Bible saying the same thing, Jesus was gone or risen before Sunday Morning. You still can't get three days and three nights from Good Friday to Sunday Morning!

I am not sure if you understand what those three verses, cited above are saying. Jesus rose before sunrise on Sunday morning. That is all these verses are saying. Jesus could have risen an hour or two earlier, what difference does that make? Those verses do not say Jesus rose on the Sabbath day. Nor do those verses state that Jesus rose before Sunday.

Remember, Sunday started twelve hours roughly, before Mary even arrived at the tomb.

Jesus was witnessed to have risen on the first day, on Sunday. That is all that matters in the end.

That is the tradition of the church, a Sunday resurrection. That is what the early church letters state. Even the scripture states he rose on the first day.

Mark 16:9
Now after He had risen early on the first day of the week...

If you want Jesus to have risen on the Sabbath day, then your fighting directly against the scripture and church history.