Removing the laws of God- what does it really mean?

[Leaf473]

I guess you can read all the quotes, but for me all I have to do is read God’s commandments that He said are eternal and either choose to believe what He said is the final Word or believe what man claims, that they have authority to change anything they want and go away from “God’s manual- the Holy Bible” and see where that path leads. From what Jesus teaches about keeping God’s commandments I am not sure how anyone could believe the Holy Spirit would lead the church or anyone to break any of God’s laws. Jesus said Mathew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ John 14:15-18

Hopefully @LoveGodsWord has some additional comments on this subject as well.

At any rate, I hope you have a blessed Sabbath! I am off for now. God bless.

May you have a blessed day as well

When you come back, and if you are interested, please talk more about who "they" are.

Do you mean just the Catholic Church, but not, say, the Eastern Orthodox or the Anglican?

Or when we talk about there being a consensus regarding the scriptures, do we mean just the early church, maybe the second or third centuries?

If you're like me, I grew up with only a vague idea of how the church moved through history and what issues it dealt with.

I assumed that once the book of Revelation was done, everyone knew what the Bible was. And since they had the truth, they could choose to follow it or not. Most people chose not to follow it, and so Christianity became mostly a cultural thing, people doing it just for show.

Nowadays I don't think that's a very accurate view

 

[SabbathBlessings]

May you have a blessed day as well

When you come back, and if you are interested, please talk more about who "they" are.

Do you mean just the Catholic Church, but not, say, the Eastern Orthodox or the Anglican?

Or when we talk about there being a consensus regarding the scriptures, do we mean just the early church, maybe the second or third centuries?

If you're like me, I grew up with only a vague idea of how the church moved through history and what issues it dealt with.

I assumed that once the book of Revelation was done, everyone knew what the Bible was. And since they had the truth, they could choose to follow it or not. Most people chose not to follow it, and so Christianity became mostly a cultural thing, people doing it just for show.

Nowadays I don't think that's a very accurate view

Hi

"They" are the Roman Catholic Church. They take full credit (or blame) for changing the corporate day of worship from the Biblical Sabbath to the first day of the week, which the majority of people now go to church on. After the RCC changed the corporate day of worship a lot of the other churches followed suit, which was one of the major factor at the Council of Trent- tradition of man or God's commandment.

I am not able tell it better than how it is explained here:

How The Sabbath Was Changed | Sabbath Truth

There is a lot of great information on the Sabbath history on this website and below are some interesting reads...

The Council of Trent | Sabbath Truth

1st Century | Sabbath Through the Centuries | Sabbath Truth

If you look up top you can see the different statement on the Sabbath throughout each century.

I agree with you, most people choose not to follow the Bible. They take parts they agree with and sort of "tune out" everything else. When you really submit yourself to God and are willing to give up your will and replace it with His will, that's when real changes can be made. I think a lot of people are really afraid to give up their lifestyle and think fully committing to God does that and it's true. For me, I was in a situation I put myself in by doing my will which caused me to break God's 4th commandment. Despite the success I had, I was miserable because the Holy Spirit was convicting my heart of my sin. I knew I made a mistake and decided to give my life over to God and I can't tell you how many miracles He worked so I could completely obey Him. It did change my whole life, but only for the better. God wants to bless us, He is a God of love and wants His children to be happy. We have to trust in Him that He knows what is best for us because He does, but what He asks for in return (our love, faith and obedience) is so small in comparison. God bless

 

[Nathan@work]

Yes, that sounds right about the continual sinful lifestyle.

It seems like it would follow, to me, that we could look at sincere Christians to see what kinds of lifestyle practices in general they avoid.

The reason I bring that up is because it looks to me like only a small percentage of those Christians are concerned about avoiding work on the Sabbath.

Seems like it would follow, imo, that the kinds of Sabbath practices we've been talking about on this thread aren't something God is leading most Christians to do.

Some may say that those Christians just haven't been taught, or they are in a bad habit. My thinking is that if the laws of God are written on their hearts, they wouldn't need to be taught.

The Sabbath trips up a lot of people. It did me. I had never thought about hanging the Decalogue on my wall, or putting it in the front yard as a reminder, until someone almost convinced me to join in with the SDA.

Up until that point, I did by nature(my new nature in Christ) those things that were pleasing to God. I did not need someone to constantly tell me to not lie, steal, murder, etc. I didn’t do those things because I loved God and others.

Then along comes Mr. X, and says ‘oh, you have been doing really good, except you know Saturday is the Sabbath, and you should do this and not do that’.

Made sense to me after a bit of thinking. I mean, all the other ones I ‘did’. Why didn’t I ‘do’ the Sabbath also.

Well that was the start of a rather painful time in my life. It took a bit for God to turn me back to Him.

It all makes sense to me now when I hear the harsh words Paul used against those who were trying to call away the Galatians into law keeping.

The commandment is to remember the Sabbath, and that we do in Christ. In fact, you cannot keep it unless you are in Christ.

 

[Clare73]

Doesn't it say somewhere that the one who is born of God does not sin? I think that would fit well with what you're saying.

You do realize that refers to a lifestyle of sin, not to all sin, or you have Scripture in contradiction of itself.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The Sabbath trips up a lot of people. It did me. I had never thought about hanging the Decalogue on my wall, or putting it in the front yard as a reminder, until someone almost convinced me to join in with the SDA.

Up until that point, I did by nature(my new nature in Christ) those things that were pleasing to God. I did not need someone to constantly tell me to not lie, steal, murder, etc. I didn’t do those things because I loved God and others.

Then along comes Mr. X, and says ‘oh, you have been doing really good, except you know Saturday is the Sabbath, and you should do this and not do that’.

Made sense to me after a bit of thinking. I mean, all the other ones I ‘did’. Why didn’t I ‘do’ the Sabbath also.

Well that was the start of a rather painful time in my life. It took a bit for God to turn me back to Him.

It all makes sense to me now when I hear the harsh words Paul used against those who were trying to call away the Galatians into law keeping.

The commandment is to remember the Sabbath, and that we do in Christ. In fact, you cannot keep it unless you are in Christ.

Seems like you forgot the key part of the Sabbath commandment, not sure if that was intentional or just accidently left out- it does not say to just "Remember Sabbath" Here is the whole scripture Exodus 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.

I am not sure if you if you are referring to the SDA church about the someone who is constantly telling you not commit sin but there are over 20 million members of the SDA church. I have been in the church for a large part of my life and it's not just about "what you can't do" the church focus on all the Biblical scripture, which doesn't always agree with everyone's lifestyle. My pastor focuses on strengthening our relationship with God and any pastor who tells you that you no longer need to obey, or that God's 4th commandment is not required or whatever fancy terms pastors use these days to justify breaking God's laws is doing their members a disservice. There is only one truth. God's commandments are His eternal covenant including the Sabbath commandment and we will continue worshipping God on His chosen Holy day each and every week on the New Earth Isaiah 66:23 for those who are saved, obeying His laws are not a burden, its an expression of our love to Him.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

You do realize that refers to a lifestyle of sin, not to all sin, or you have Scripture in contradiction of itself.

There are some who still keep and can keep God's commandments according to scripture, but it is a remnant.
Revelations 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

 

[pescador]

The sabbath is supposed to be a day of rest, at least it was for God. However, Jesus "broke" the sabbath. He pointed out that there were some actions that took priority over resting, such as rescuing people and animals, healing people, eating grain off the stalk if you're very hungry, etc.

So if you're thinking that "keeping the Sabbath" is an inviolable command of God, never to be "broken", then you're under the Law, i.e., not under grace and not a Christian.

Mark 2:27-28 (and elsewhere), "Then he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for people, not people for the Sabbath. For this reason the Son of Man is lord even of the Sabbath.”

 

[LoveGodsWord]

That's an interesting charge.

What did the church actually say?

As I understand it, the only official teachings of the church come from ecumenical councils or, possibly, papal decrees.

I think that's where we would want to look to see what they officially said.

(@LoveGodsWord You're welcome to jump in here too. In the nice message you wrote me, were those quotes from ecumenical councils?)

Hi Leaf, and @imge , I think I provided a link in my last post that addresses some of this from another post in another thread. I will post it here for convenience if it might be helpful.

Here are some interesting historical references you might find interesting that clear up a few misconception people may have about Sunday worship entering the Roman empire and the early Church....

Historically, Constantine did not change the day of worship as many claim. According to the historical records, Constantine made a civil Sunday law that the Roman Catholic Church adopted in order to practice and promote Sunday worship over the Sabbath of God's 4th commandment...

First Sunday Law enacted by Emperor Constantine - March, 321 A.D.

“On the venerable Day of the Sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country, however, persons engaged in agriculture may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits; because it often happens that another day is not so suitable for grain-sowing or for vine-planting; lest by neglecting the proper moment for such operations the bounty of heaven should be lost. (Given the 7th day of March, Crispus and Constantine being consuls each of them for the second time [A.D. 321].)” Source: Codex Justinianus, lib. 3, tit. 12, 3; trans. in Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church, Vol.3 (5th ed.; New York: Scribner, 1902), p.380, note 1.

Now a professed Christian, Constantine nevertheless remained a devout sun worshipper. “The sun was universally celebrated as the invincible guide and protector of Constantine,” notes Edward Gibbon in his classic Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, ch. xx, par. 3.

Constantine even printed coins which “bore on the one side the letters of the name of Christ, on the other the figure of the sun god.” Arthur P. Stanley, History of the Eastern Church, lect. vi, par. 14.

Again, Constantine’s promotion of Sunday observance was part of his definite strategy to combine paganism with Christianity: “The retention of the old pagan name of dies Solis, or 'Sunday,' for the weekly Christian festival, is in great measure owing to the union of pagan and Christian sentiment with which the first day of the week was recommended by Constantine to his subjects, pagan and Christian alike, as the ‘venerable day of the Sun.’” – Stanley’s History of the Eastern Church, p. 184.

In spite of the rising popularity of Sunday sacredness, Church historian Socrates Scholasticus (5th century) wrote: “For although almost all churches throughout the world celebrate the sacred mysteries [of the Lord's Supper] on the Sabbath of every week, yet the Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, have ceased to do this.” – Socrates Scholasticus, Ecclesiastical History, Book 5, ch. 22.

Another historian also confirmed this by stating, “The people of Constantinople, and almost everywhere, assemble together on the Sabbath, as well as on the first day of the week, which custom is never observed at Rome or at Alexandria.” – Sozomen, Ecclesiastical History, Book 7, ch. 19. Thus even in the 5th century, Sabbath keeping was universally prevalent (except in Rome and Alexandria) along with Sunday keeping. Many Christians kept both days, but as the centuries wore on, Sunday keeping grew in prominence and especially within Roman Catholic territories.

In 330 A.D., Constantine moved his capital from Rome to Constantinople (modern Istanbul), thus preparing the way for the Roman Catholic Popes to reign in Rome as the successors of Constantine. As the Papal Church grew in power, it opposed Sabbath observance in favour of Sunday sacredness and made the day change official in the Council of Laodicea (A.D. 363-364). Constantine's law had now been fully integrated into the Papal Church and the final step of the Sabbath to Sunday change was complete.

So around the year A.D. 364, the Catholic Church outlawed Sabbath keeping in the Council of Laodicea when they decreed 59 Canon laws. The following is the relevant Canon law: Canon XXIX: “Christians must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honouring the Lord's Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ.” (Percival Translation).

Four hundred years after the death of Christ and one hundred years after Constantine's linking of Church and State by his Sunday law edict, Rome and Alexandria were the only places in the world where many of the Christians kept only Sunday and not the true Sabbath. Why was it that Rome and Alexandria were also the first locations that Sunday worship began? Because this is where the pagan practices of Babylon eventually landed after it was conquered. And what was the dominant pagan practice that the Babylonian priests brought with them? Sun worship which was done on Sun-day! See the history of Sunday worship for more detail.

So one can understand why Rome and Alexandria did not bother to keep the true Sabbath as they had not done so for 200 years. Throughout the entire history of the changeover from Sabbath to Sunday, Rome and Alexandria had worked together. Alexandria provided the philosophical reasons for the changes and Rome provided the decrees and anathemas. Constantine's help was given only to the worldly Church leaders at Rome and those Christians that resisted the errors that were being introduced into the Church met with his opposition. “Unite with the bishop of Rome or be destroyed,” was Constantine's position.

“Great as were the favors which Constantine showed to the church, they were only for that strong, close-knit, hierarchically organized portion that called itself Catholic. The various [so-called] heretical sects could look for no bounty from his hands.” – Williston Walker, A History of the Christian Church, page 105.

The change of the Sabbath to Sunday was totally completed by the seventh century as the Popes consolidating their enormous power persecuted all who resisted their innovations. Did Satan use Constantine to play a key part in his plan to change the Sabbath to his day being Sunday? The answer is clear! From sun worship 2000 B.C., to Sunday worship in the Church. Satan infiltrated the Christian Church and most are oblivious to the fact that this has happened or understand the relevance. Sunday or “dies solis”, the day of the sun came from Satan worship and is his day. (more from here).

God bless

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The sabbath is supposed to be a day of rest, at least it was for God. However, Jesus "broke" the sabbath. He pointed out that there were some actions that took priority over resting, such as rescuing people and animals, healing people, eating grain off the stalk if you're very hungry, etc.

So if you're thinking that "keeping the Sabbath" is an inviolable command of God, never to be "broken", then you're under the Law, i.e., not under grace and not a Christian.

Here is the Sabbath commandment. It seems pretty easy to understand Exodus 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Our Savior did not break the Sabbath, He was accused of it by people who were more concerned with what other people were doing on Sabbath than their own relationship with God on Sabbath. Jesus kept all of God's commandments and He told us to as well. John 15:10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

God made man on the six day and the very next day was Sabbath, which is why Jesus said in Mark 2:27 The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. The Sabbath is a blessing for all. A day to keep holy and a day of communion with God. God bless.

 

[Leaf473]

Hi

"They" are the Roman Catholic Church. They take full credit (or blame) for changing the corporate day of worship from the Biblical Sabbath to the first day of the week, which the majority of people now go to church on. After the RCC changed the corporate day of worship a lot of the other churches followed suit, which was one of the major factor at the Council of Trent- tradition of man or God's commandment.

I am not able tell it better than how it is explained here:

How The Sabbath Was Changed | Sabbath Truth

There is a lot of great information on the Sabbath history on this website and below are some interesting reads...

The Council of Trent | Sabbath Truth

1st Century | Sabbath Through the Centuries | Sabbath Truth

If you look up top you can see the different statement on the Sabbath throughout each century.

I agree with you, most people choose not to follow the Bible. They take parts they agree with and sort of "tune out" everything else. When you really submit yourself to God and are willing to give up your will and replace it with His will, that's when real changes can be made. I think a lot of people are really afraid to give up their lifestyle and think fully committing to God does that and it's true. For me, I was in a situation I put myself in by doing my will which caused me to break God's 4th commandment. Despite the success I had, I was miserable because the Holy Spirit was convicting my heart of my sin. I knew I made a mistake and decided to give my life over to God and I can't tell you how many miracles He worked so I could completely obey Him. It did change my whole life, but only for the better. God wants to bless us, He is a God of love and wants His children to be happy. We have to trust in Him that He knows what is best for us because He does, but what He asks for in return (our love, faith and obedience) is so small in comparison. God bless

Thanks for the info.

Sometimes taking credit for something doesn't mean that the group is actually responsible. Sometimes there will be an explosion and three or four terrorist groups will claim responsibility.

Myself, I don't look to the Catholic Church to see for sure which documents are God's word, though I do think they have some valuable input.

If I accept the Catholic Bible, that includes books like Tobit as well. But maybe that's not what you were talking about.

Also, again for me, it just seems too strange to accept what a group says is scripture or not, but disregard what they say about other things like the Lord's Supper.

I know you've talked about things like the church is not above God. But I think we would both agree that the church is the body of Christ on earth. With Christ as the head, I don't think the church as a whole goes places that the Head doesn't want it to.

Which I think dovetails well with the idea of the holy Spirit convicting people about the Sabbath. To be honest, I'm not seeing a lot of evidence of the spirit convicting people about the Sabbath. Yes, it is true in a few. And yes, it's possible that's the faithful remnant.

But again to be honest, I think a better explanation is that the spirit leads some Christians to keep the Sabbath similar to the SDA way, but most not to.

Peace be with you!

 

[Leaf473]

The Sabbath trips up a lot of people. It did me. I had never thought about hanging the Decalogue on my wall, or putting it in the front yard as a reminder, until someone almost convinced me to join in with the SDA.

Up until that point, I did by nature(my new nature in Christ) those things that were pleasing to God. I did not need someone to constantly tell me to not lie, steal, murder, etc. I didn’t do those things because I loved God and others.

Then along comes Mr. X, and says ‘oh, you have been doing really good, except you know Saturday is the Sabbath, and you should do this and not do that’.

Made sense to me after a bit of thinking. I mean, all the other ones I ‘did’. Why didn’t I ‘do’ the Sabbath also.

Well that was the start of a rather painful time in my life. It took a bit for God to turn me back to Him.

It all makes sense to me now when I hear the harsh words Paul used against those who were trying to call away the Galatians into law keeping.

The commandment is to remember the Sabbath, and that we do in Christ. In fact, you cannot keep it unless you are in Christ.

Yes, as a new creation in Christ Jesus, you had a sense of how God wanted you to live, kind of like an instinct.

It wasn't until someone else told you about the Sabbath that you thought you needed to keep it, sounds like.

That looks to me like it wasn't something written on your heart the way the other things were.

Sad to hear about your painful experience.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Once we come to Jesus Christ by faith, the law has done its work. We can now live in a trusting and dependent relationship on the indwelling Holy Spirit instead of trusting and depending on laws designed to manage our flesh.

Is this what we see in how people in churches behave towards one another? Or is everyone merely trusting the Holy Spirit being freed from the laws of how to treat others regardless of how they actually do?

Secondly, why did Peter warn us about lawless people in 2 Peter 3:17?

 

[Nathan@work]

Seems like you forgot the key part of the Sabbath commandment, not sure if that was intentional or just accidently left out- it does not say to just "Remember Sabbath" Here is the whole scripture Exodus 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.

I am not sure if you if you are referring to the SDA church about the someone who is constantly telling you not commit sin but there are over 20 million members of the SDA church. I have been in the church for a large part of my life and it's not just about "what you can't do" the church focus on all the Biblical scripture, which doesn't always agree with everyone's lifestyle. My pastor focuses on strengthening our relationship with God and any pastor who tells you that you no longer need to obey, or that God's 4th commandment is not required or whatever fancy terms pastors use these days to justify breaking God's laws is doing their members a disservice. There is only one truth. God's commandments are His eternal covenant including the Sabbath commandment and we will continue worshipping God on His chosen Holy day each and every week on the New Earth Isaiah 66:23 for those who are saved, obeying His laws are not a burden, its an expression of our love to Him.

The command is to remember the Sabbath, to keep it holy is a result of it.

Christ is holy, He keeps us holy. In Christ, the Sabbath is holy.

What is unholy? To reject the rest God has given you - in favor of the rest you want to give yourself.

Only Christ could fulfill the commandments perfectly.

Does that mean we try to break them? Of course not. What it does mean is we, because of repentance, turn to Him for guidance on how He wants us to keep them.

Since He kept them perfectly, and no one else ever has, I figure He is the one to have lead me.

 

[Leaf473]

Hi Leaf, and @imge , I think I provided a link in my last post that addresses some of this from another post in another thread. I will post it here for convenience if it might be helpful.

Here are some interesting historical references you might find interesting that clear up a few misconception people may have about Sunday worship entering the Roman empire and the early Church....

Historically, Constantine did not change the day of worship as many claim. According to the historical records, Constantine made a civil Sunday law that the Roman Catholic Church adopted in order to practice and promote Sunday worship over the Sabbath of God's 4th commandment...

First Sunday Law enacted by Emperor Constantine - March, 321 A.D.

“On the venerable Day of the Sun let the magistrates and people residing in cities rest, and let all workshops be closed. In the country, however, persons engaged in agriculture may freely and lawfully continue their pursuits; because it often happens that another day is not so suitable for grain-sowing or for vine-planting; lest by neglecting the proper moment for such operations the bounty of heaven should be lost. (Given the 7th day of March, Crispus and Constantine being consuls each of them for the second time [A.D. 321].)” Source: Codex Justinianus, lib. 3, tit. 12, 3; trans. in Philip Schaff, History of the Christian Church, Vol.3 (5th ed.; New York: Scribner, 1902), p.380, note 1.

Now a professed Christian, Constantine nevertheless remained a devout sun worshipper. “The sun was universally celebrated as the invincible guide and protector of Constantine,” notes Edward Gibbon in his classic Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, ch. xx, par. 3.

Constantine even printed coins which “bore on the one side the letters of the name of Christ, on the other the figure of the sun god.” Arthur P. Stanley, History of the Eastern Church, lect. vi, par. 14.

Again, Constantine’s promotion of Sunday observance was part of his definite strategy to combine paganism with Christianity: “The retention of the old pagan name of dies Solis, or 'Sunday,' for the weekly Christian festival, is in great measure owing to the union of pagan and Christian sentiment with which the first day of the week was recommended by Constantine to his subjects, pagan and Christian alike, as the ‘venerable day of the Sun.’” – Stanley’s History of the Eastern Church, p. 184.

In spite of the rising popularity of Sunday sacredness, Church historian Socrates Scholasticus (5th century) wrote: “For although almost all churches throughout the world celebrate the sacred mysteries [of the Lord's Supper] on the Sabbath of every week, yet the Christians of Alexandria and at Rome, on account of some ancient tradition, have ceased to do this.” – Socrates Scholasticus, Ecclesiastical History, Book 5, ch. 22.

Another historian also confirmed this by stating, “The people of Constantinople, and almost everywhere, assemble together on the Sabbath, as well as on the first day of the week, which custom is never observed at Rome or at Alexandria.” – Sozomen, Ecclesiastical History, Book 7, ch. 19. Thus even in the 5th century, Sabbath keeping was universally prevalent (except in Rome and Alexandria) along with Sunday keeping. Many Christians kept both days, but as the centuries wore on, Sunday keeping grew in prominence and especially within Roman Catholic territories.

In 330 A.D., Constantine moved his capital from Rome to Constantinople (modern Istanbul), thus preparing the way for the Roman Catholic Popes to reign in Rome as the successors of Constantine. As the Papal Church grew in power, it opposed Sabbath observance in favour of Sunday sacredness and made the day change official in the Council of Laodicea (A.D. 363-364). Constantine's law had now been fully integrated into the Papal Church and the final step of the Sabbath to Sunday change was complete.

So around the year A.D. 364, the Catholic Church outlawed Sabbath keeping in the Council of Laodicea when they decreed 59 Canon laws. The following is the relevant Canon law: Canon XXIX: “Christians must not judaize by resting on the Sabbath, but must work on that day, rather honouring the Lord's Day; and, if they can, resting then as Christians. But if any shall be found to be judaizers, let them be anathema from Christ.” (Percival Translation).

Four hundred years after the death of Christ and one hundred years after Constantine's linking of Church and State by his Sunday law edict, Rome and Alexandria were the only places in the world where many of the Christians kept only Sunday and not the true Sabbath. Why was it that Rome and Alexandria were also the first locations that Sunday worship began? Because this is where the pagan practices of Babylon eventually landed after it was conquered. And what was the dominant pagan practice that the Babylonian priests brought with them? Sun worship which was done on Sun-day! See the history of Sunday worship for more detail.

So one can understand why Rome and Alexandria did not bother to keep the true Sabbath as they had not done so for 200 years. Throughout the entire history of the changeover from Sabbath to Sunday, Rome and Alexandria had worked together. Alexandria provided the philosophical reasons for the changes and Rome provided the decrees and anathemas. Constantine's help was given only to the worldly Church leaders at Rome and those Christians that resisted the errors that were being introduced into the Church met with his opposition. “Unite with the bishop of Rome or be destroyed,” was Constantine's position.

“Great as were the favors which Constantine showed to the church, they were only for that strong, close-knit, hierarchically organized portion that called itself Catholic. The various [so-called] heretical sects could look for no bounty from his hands.” – Williston Walker, A History of the Christian Church, page 105.

The change of the Sabbath to Sunday was totally completed by the seventh century as the Popes consolidating their enormous power persecuted all who resisted their innovations. Did Satan use Constantine to play a key part in his plan to change the Sabbath to his day being Sunday? The answer is clear! From sun worship 2000 B.C., to Sunday worship in the Church. Satan infiltrated the Christian Church and most are oblivious to the fact that this has happened or understand the relevance. Sunday or “dies solis”, the day of the sun came from Satan worship and is his day. (more from here).

God bless

I was asking about ecumenical councils, the one thing in your post that looked like it might have been one was the council at Laodicea.

But looking at this Wikipedia article, it turns out it was a local one.
Council of Laodicea - Wikipedia

Some interesting things I didn't know from that Wikipedia article, that council did outlaw Sabbath keeping for that region. It also produced a list of Bible books, but it's different from the one we use today.

The big issue as it relates to the thread title, as I see it, is whether the church
(or group of christians, however you want to say it)
that picked out the scriptures
also had the authority to interpret those scriptures.

 

[GraceBro]

Is this what we see in how people in churches behave towards one another? Or is everyone merely trusting the Holy Spirit being freed from the laws of how to treat others regardless of how they actually do?

Secondly, why did Peter warn us about lawless people in 2 Peter 3:17?

I don't know what others see, but what I have experienced with people in the church is that they are attempting to live lives of obedience and repentance to some form of law and failing. The idea of trusting in the Holy Spirit is foreign to them. To them, it is either law or licentiousness. They have no idea of the role of the Holy Spirit in their lives.

And this leads to your second question. The people I am talking about are lawless. They are the ones trying to live under the law and thus, they are lawless because they are disobedient to its demands. The law demands perfection, not our best effort. The "error of the lawless" Peter warns against are the legalists, the ones focused on modifying their flesh through keeping the law. The "secure position" we are warned against falling from is going from a life of living by grace through faith to one of law through works. It is why we see Christians judging and condemning each other for their perceived "disobedience."

The law was God's contribution to man's best effort to be like Him and is of no use without having somebody to compare ourselves to. All Christians focus on is each other's behavior (are you giving, going to church, overcoming sin, etc) and whether or not they will be blessed or cursed by God. It is as if the New Covenant doesn't exist. They measure their relationship with God by how well they are doing under the commands put on them by their church and other Christians, not from God. Grace and Peace.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I don't know what others see, but what I have experienced with people in the church is that they are attempting to live lives of obedience and repentance to some form of law and failing. The idea of trusting in the Holy Spirit is foreign to them. To them, it is either law or licentiousness. They have no idea of the role of the Holy Spirit in their lives.

I guess that is not my experience so I cannot say much to that.

And this leads to your second question. The people I am talking about are lawless. They are the ones trying to live under the law and thus, they are lawless because they are disobedient to its demands. The law demands perfection, not our best effort. The "error of the lawless" Peter warns against are the legalists, the ones focused on modifying their flesh through keeping the law. The "secure position" we are warned against falling from is going from a life of living by grace through faith to one of law through works. It is why we see Christians judging and condemning each other for their perceived "disobedience."

I think you have really changed what Peter said here to something quite different than his intension. In a verse or so before he writes, "Therefore, beloved, as you anticipate these things, make every effort to be found at peace—spotless and blameless in His sight.f" He writes make every effort. He does not write "live a life of grace with no effort on your part." The lawless ones are those who do not do the commandments of Christ which Jesus himself says are a light burden and an easy load. But it is not NO burden and NO load. The law, by the way, does not demand perfection. It is a guide for those who need a guide. That is, the law says treat others as you would like to be treated. The secure position of one of being in Christ and saved but always in danger of falling away from that secure position. The Bible actually says the Law of the Lord is good, converting the soul. David loved God's law. It changes the heart.

The law was God's contribution to man's best effort to be like Him and is of no use without having somebody to compare ourselves to. All Christians focus on is each other's behavior (are you giving, going to church, overcoming sin, etc) and whether or not they will be blessed or cursed by God. It is as if the New Covenant doesn't exist. They measure their relationship with God by how well they are doing under the commands put on them by their church and other Christians, not from God. Grace and Peace.

Ah, now I see what you mean. If the church is full of people looking to see if they are going to church or giving or serving trying to measure up, then you are right. This is legalism. There is a law of grace that also puts standards of behaviour on a person but it comes from within, not of applying the expectations of others. It is different although might look the same in some cases.

I do agree that probably few live a life of following the leading of the Holy Spirit but try to live up to rules. We are not taught to hear his voice and obey it. We are taught what Christians should do and to an increasing degree, how to generate the feelings we ought to have. Both are acting.

 

[GraceBro]

I think you have really changed what Peter said here to something quite different than his intension. In a verse or so before he writes, "Therefore, beloved, as you anticipate these things, make every effort to be found at peace—spotless and blameless in His sight.f" He writes make every effort. He does not write "live a life of grace with no effort on your part." The lawless ones are those who do not do the commandments of Christ which Jesus himself says are a light burden and an easy load. But it is not NO burden and NO load. The law, by the way, does not demand perfection. It is a guide for those who need a guide. That is, the law says treat others as you would like to be treated. The secure position of one of being in Christ and saved but always in danger of falling away from that secure position. The Bible actually says the Law of the Lord is good, converting the soul. David loved God's law. It changes the heart.
.

I believe making every effort is not evidence that we are under the law. It is making every effort not to fall prey to those demanding you live a life under the law. If we engage in law-keeping, then we will not be found spotless and blameless if God were to judge us by that standard. We are already spotless and blameless because of our faith in Christ (Colossians 1:22). Yes, the law does demand perfection (Deuteronomy 28:1; Joshua 1:8; Matthew 5:48, Galatians 3:10; James 2:10). One under the law would think that salvation can be lost because if it depends on our obedience and repentance to law, then we are all doomed and Christ's work on our behalf was pointless. The Law is for the lost not for Christians (1 Timothy 1:8-10). The law is to lead us to Christ (Galatians 3:24) not to lead us as Christians. Anyway, if you want to live under the law and by your works, please be my guest. We just have different views of Christian life. Pray for me if you disagree and I will pray for you. Grace and Peace.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I don't think Jesus is exalted in legalism, as clever as that sounds.

 

[GraceBro]

I don't think Jesus is exalted in legalism, as clever as that sounds.

No, He taught the law to show us our sinfulness so we would recognize our need for the grace and mercy of God.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I was asking about ecumenical councils, the one thing in your post that looked like it might have been one was the council at Laodicea.

But looking at this Wikipedia article, it turns out it was a local one.
Council of Laodicea - Wikipedia

Some interesting things I didn't know from that Wikipedia article, that council did outlaw Sabbath keeping for that region. It also produced a list of Bible books, but it's different from the one we use today.

The big issue as it relates to the thread title, as I see it, is whether the church
(or group of christians, however you want to say it)
that picked out the scriptures
also had the authority to interpret those scriptures.

True it was a local synod in the Council of Laodecea that is a red-herring though as the Cannons are universal laws for the Church not regional that is why it is a Canon law in the Church.