Is the Seventh Day Adventist Church orthodox

[LoveGodsWord]

Sure. Or at least what I think it might be saying.

If both can be true then the parable can have lessons regarding

a. all the righteous and all the sinners living side by side in the world until the harvest.

b. since this is the case this is also true in the church.

I would be fine with that, if that is what you are indicating. The problem I would have is if someone would limit it to only talking about the church, when the scope is larger than that.

I think there has been enough scripture already posted to show application to the church. For me it has greater application to the church that is in the world because believers (children of the kingdom) and unbelievers (tares) are growing side by side and cannot be rooted out of the Church unless the wheat are uprooted in the process according to the scriptures in the parable.

I do not think anyone has stated that the parable of the wheat and the tares only has application to the church and cannot mean outside of the church from my understanding. The context of COL is not disregarding application outside of the church but is only pointing out application inside the church...

“The field,” Christ said, “is the world.” But we must understand this as signifying the church of Christ in the world. The parable is a description of that which pertains to the kingdom of God, His work of salvation of men; and this work is accomplished through the church. True, the Holy Spirit has gone out into all the world; everywhere it is moving upon the hearts of men; but it is in the church that we are to grow and ripen for the garner of God. (COL)

Looks a little different with the SOP quote from COL has context added back in doesn't it.

Hope this is helpful.

 

[tall73]

I think there has been enough scripture already posted to show application to the church. For me it has greater application to the church that is in the world because believers (children of the kingdom) and unbelievers (tares) are growing side by side and cannot be rooted out of the Church unless the wheat are uprooted in the process according to the scriptures in the parable..

Ok, we can get to the rest in a moment, but you see the servants who ask about the tares as angels?

What is their role?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Ok, we can get to the rest in a moment, but you see the servants who ask about the tares as angels?
What is their role?

Well I was going to pull out of this conversation. Perhaps we should start with the questions I asked you first if you would like me to answer your questions as I did ask you some question sometime ago that you did not answer back in post #644 linked.

How about you answer these questions before we continue (supporting scripture please)?

Q1. Tell me how can gathering the tares result in uprooting the wheat (God's people) if there is no application to the church that is in the world here and the parables connection to the Church that is in the world as shown in Matthew 7:21-23; 2 Peter 2:1-3; Acts of the Apostles 20:29-30 ?

Q2 Perhaps you can tell us from the scriptures why you believe that Matthew 13:24-30; 37-43 cannot have application to the Church that is in the world and only has application to those who are outside of the Church that is in the world with both the wheat and the tares also being in the church?

These questions may help the discussion.

 

[tall73]

Well I was going to pull out of this conversation. Perhaps we should start with the questions I asked you first if you would like me to answer your questions as I did ask you some question sometime ago that you did not answer back in post #644 linked.

How about you answer these questions before we continue (supporting scripture please)?

Q1. Tell me how can gathering the tares result in uprooting the wheat (God's people) if there is no application to the church that is in the world here and the parables connection to the Church that is in the world as shown in Matthew 7:21-23; 2 Peter 2:1-3; Acts of the Apostles 20:29-30 ?

To quote from earlier:

There is a very tight connection between saints and sinners in this life and simply uprooting the lost from the saved would risk losing the saved. So in many cases the saints and the sinners are fish in the same pond and one cannot simply "delete the sinners" without causing harm to the saints. So for example if your sister is a saint but one of your brothers is the known-to-God-sinner - God would do damage to your family by simply deleting that brother.

Q2 Perhaps you can tell us from the scriptures why you believe that Matthew 13:24-30; 37-43 cannot have application to the Church that is in the world and only has application to those who are outside of the Church that is in the world with both the wheat and the tares also being in the church?

These questions may help the discussion.

To quote from earlier:

Tares are those who reject the influence/prompting of the Holy Spirit - no matter where they are and the wheat represents those who accept His work no matter where they are or what sort of group they are in.

To elaborate, Jesus indicated the world. All the saved and all the lost are indicated. The ones suggesting the removal are the servants, outside of the field, not part of the wheat or tares, which appear to be angels or some other intelligent servants of God. Therefore the primary application is that God did not immediately remove sinners from the world at one time. Instead He will wait until the harvest.

If you want to make a secondary application that if God did not remove sinners immediately from the earth then the church should not try to use civil power to destroy them, etc. then that would be fine. But the ones proposing the removal were outside of the world, servants of God, not part of the wheat in the field of the earth.

Now earlier you indicated the servants were angels, which would fit with my primary view. Do you still agree with that?

 

[tall73]

Looks a little different with the SOP quote from COL has context added back in doesn't it.

Hope this is helpful.

Not at all. She still tried to change the meaning of what Christ said. The field is the world. We do not need to understand the field as the church of Christ in the world. Because that would limit the scope beyond what Jesus did.

 

[tall73]

I do not think anyone has stated that the parable of the wheat and the tares only has application to the church and cannot mean outside of the church from my understanding. The context of COL is not disregarding application outside of the church but is only pointing out application inside the church...

Of course it disregards it when you try to explain what Jesus said to mean something else:

“The field,” Christ said, “is the world.” But we must understand this as signifying the church of Christ in the world.

No, we most certainly don't. The field is the world. Any application to the church is secondary, and requires no change in understanding from what Jesus said.

The parable is a description of that which pertains to the kingdom of God, His work of salvation of men; and this work is accomplished through the church. True, the Holy Spirit has gone out into all the world; everywhere it is moving upon the hearts of men; but it is in the church that we are to grow and ripen for the garner of God. (COL)

You do realize that the underlined sentence is her conceding the obvious objection of the reader to her trying to change the meaning of the words of Christ, right?

If her only point was that there is a secondary meaning, and she is going to talk about that instead, that is a terrible way to phrase it.

 

[tall73]

I do not think anyone has stated that the parable of the wheat and the tares only has application to the church and cannot mean outside of the church from my understanding.

My stated goal in this exercise was to see how Adventists look at Scripture. And I think I finally get your view on this. So thank you, though it was frustrating at times, I think we found more agreement than I thought we might for a while.

Now, I can finish up with Bob on this, but if you like you can tell me your understanding of what parts of the law apply to gentiles. Bob and I are already started on that.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

You think both are true?
We may be closer to agreement than I thought. Now, you stated earlier in summarizing your view of the text (forgive the micro quote but it was a very long post) You indicate the servants are angels. Correct?

In finishing up. Answering your question. No, the sections in red are stating that the reapers are the Angels at the harvest as the scriptures state in Matthew 13:39. It is not clear who the servants are in the parable as they are not specifically defined but according to other scriptures may represent true believers in the Church.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

LoveGodsWord wrote: Q1. Tell me how can gathering the tares result in uprooting the wheat (God's people) if there is no application to the church that is in the world here and the parables connection to the Church that is in the world as shown in Matthew 7:21-23; 2 Peter 2:1-3; Acts of the Apostles 20:29-30 ?

Your response here...

To quote from earlier: There is a very tight connection between saints and sinners in this life and simply uprooting the lost from the saved would risk losing the saved. So in many cases the saints and the sinners are fish in the same pond and one cannot simply "delete the sinners" without causing harm to the saints. So for example if your sister is a saint but one of your brothers is the known-to-God-sinner - God would do damage to your family by simply deleting that brother.

For me your explanation here is not supported by the scriptures but let me explain why? If you believe the application of the wheat and the tares only has application to the tares that are only outside of the church and in the world (the scriptures do not indicate this anywhere) it disagrees with the scripture in the parable that the application is that the wheat (children of the kingdom) are growing side by side with the tares and you have already agreed with me that there is also application to the the wheat and tares (unbelievers and false teachers) being in the church that is in the world. Taking out the tares that are outside of the church does not make sense in application to the parable as there would be nothing to uproot the wheat (children of the kingdom) if the tares were uprooted outside of the church and no reason to uproot the tares outside of the church that is in the world.

LoveGodsWord said Q2 Perhaps you can tell us from the scriptures why you believe that Matthew 13:24-30; 37-43 cannot have application to the Church that is in the world and only has application to those who are outside of the Church that is in the world with both the wheat and the tares also being in the church?

Your response here...

To quote from earlier: Tares are those who reject the influence/prompting of the Holy Spirit - no matter where they are and the wheat represents those who accept His work no matter where they are or what sort of group they are in. To elaborate, Jesus indicated the world. All the saved and all the lost are indicated. The ones suggesting the removal are the servants, outside of the field, not part of the wheat or tares, which appear to be angels or some other intelligent servants of God. Therefore the primary application is that God did not immediately remove sinners from the world at one time. Instead He will wait until the harvest. If you want to make a secondary application that if God did not remove sinners immediately from the earth then the church should not try to use civil power to destroy them, etc. then that would be fine. But the ones proposing the removal were outside of the world, servants of God, not part of the wheat in the field of the earth.

Thanks for sharing your view though I do not think it is biblical. The reason I state this is because that as posted earlier the wheat and tares according to the scriptures are growing together side by side. All through the old testament scriptures we see that the wheat and tares have always been in God's Church that is in the world. There has always been true believers that believe and follow God's Word and professed believers that do not follow God's Word or false teachers claiming to be from God but lead others away from God and his Word. To state that there are no wheat and tares in the Church in my view is simply unbiblical as already shown in many scriptures here and more recently in a few scriptures in...

Matthew 8:11-12, [11] And I say to you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.[12], But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness (the tares or disobedient in the Church): there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 7:21-23 [21], Not every one that said to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that does the will of my Father which is in heaven. [22], Many will say to me in that day, (Harvest separation) Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in your name? and in your name have cast out devils? and in your name done many wonderful works? [23], And then will I profess to them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity.

I believe this is where your mistake is. If you believe that the wheat and tares are growing together in the world we must also believe that the wheat and the tares are growing together in the Church as the Church is in the world and as posted earlier the world is in the Church.

Hope this is helpful

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Not at all. She still tried to change the meaning of what Christ said. The field is the world. We do not need to understand the field as the church of Christ in the world. Because that would limit the scope beyond what Jesus did.

I am sorry but I respectfully disagree. I provided the full quote in context in post # 801 that you left out...

"True, the Holy Spirit has gone out into all the world; everywhere it is moving upon the hearts of men; but it is in the church that we are to grow and ripen for the garner of God." (COL)

Looks a little different with has context added back in doesn't it.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Of course it disregards it when you try to explain what Jesus said to mean something else: “The field,” Christ said, “is the world.” But we must understand this as signifying the church of Christ in the world.

Of course you are entitled to your view. However I do not believe for the reasons already posted from the scriptures and elsewhere that your view in disregarding the application to the wheat and tares in the Church that is in the world is biblical. You seem to be of the view that we are arguing application to those outside of the Church. This is an argument no one has ever made even the SOP from COL as already shown in the context of the statement you disregarded already. The statement does not say anywhere that Jesus means something else to what the scriptures teach that is something you have read into the statement and something that I never have when reading context and scripture together as shown already in this thread.

No, we most certainly don't. The field is the world. Any application to the church is secondary, and requires no change in understanding from what Jesus said.

What you mean here is that the wheat and the tares are not in the Church that is in the world. To me this statement is unsupported by scripture as the wheat and the tares as shown through many scriptures and other external resources already are in the Church that is in the world.

You do realize that the underlined sentence is her conceding the obvious objection of the reader to her trying to change the meaning of the words of Christ, right?

No. It is a statement of truth and it not undermining any objections as shown in the statement it is simply stating as I have done also with you that application to the wheat and the tares is to the Church that is in the world and outside of the Church that is in the world. Fact is though you cannot separate them like your seeking to do here in this thread as the Church is in the world and the world is also in the Church (Wheat and tares in the world).

If her only point was that there is a secondary meaning, and she is going to talk about that instead, that is a terrible way to phrase it.

It is not meant to be a secondary meaning. It is showing application to the wheat (believers) and the tares (unbelievers) in the Church that is in the world.

Hope this is helpful.

 

[tall73]

In finishing up. Answering your question. No, the sections in red are stating that the reapers are the Angels at the harvest as the scriptures state in Matthew 13:39. It is not clear who the servants are in the parable as they are not specifically defined.

I noted to Bob that it is not identified as well. So I agree in one sense we don't have a definite meaning.

On the other hand, the servants are servants of the man with the field, so they are servants of God.

They appear to be outside the world, discussing what to do with the the tares in the world.

So I agree we don't know for certain what they are, but we know something about them.

 

[tall73]

Your response here...

For me your explanation here is not supported by the scriptures but let me explain why? If you believe the application of the wheat and the tares only has application to the tares that are only outside of the church and in the world (the scriptures do not indicate this anywhere)

No, that is not it. I think that the tares are non-believers whether in the church or outside of the visible church. All unbelievers.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

No, that is not it. I think that the tares are non-believers whether in the church or outside of the visible church. All unbelievers.

Then you have just conceded that the application to the parable of the wheat and the tares also has application to the church that is in the world agreeing with the SOP in COL.

 

[tall73]

I am sorry but I respectfully disagree. I provided the full quote in context in post # 801 that you left out...

"True, the Holy Spirit has gone out into all the world; everywhere it is moving upon the hearts of men; but it is in the church that we are to grow and ripen for the garner of God." (COL)

Looks a little different with has context added back in doesn't it.

No, it doesn't look any different. She concedes the Spirit goes into the whole world, which would be the natural objection to her earlier statement redefining the world to the church. Then she still doubles down on redefining the field of the world to the church, reducing its scope. She does this because she says that it is in the church we grow for the harvest.

But not all believers are in the visible church. She reduced the scope without warrant.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

No, it doesn't look any different. She concedes the Spirit goes into the whole world, which would be the natural objection to her earlier statement redefining the world to the church. Then she still doubles down on redefining the field of the world to the church, reducing its scope. She does this because she says that it is in the church we grow for the harvest.

But not all believers are in the visible church. She reduced the scope without warrant.

Sorry we disagree. I do not read it that way at all and the context added agrees with me.

 

[tall73]

Then you have just conceded that the application to the parable in of the wheat and the tares also has application to the church that is in the world agreeing with the SOP in COL.

I already stated to you if you consider both then I don't completely disagree.

Jesus said the field is the world. That is the definition. There are both true believers and true non-believers in the world.

If you want to extend the logic (not stated in the parable) that there are also true believers and non-believers in the church, then we agree.

Now Ellen White gainsaying the meaning of Jesus identification of the field as the world, no I don't agree with that.

 

[tall73]

Sorry we disagree. I do not read it that way at all.

That is fine. I stated my goal was to see how Adventists interpret. My goal was not to have us agree or disagree on Ellen White.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I already stated to you if you consider both then I don't completely disagree.

Jesus said the field is the world. That is the definition. There are both true believers and true non-believers in the world.

If you want to extend the logic (not stated in the parable) that there are also true believers and non-believers in the church, then we agree.

Now Ellen White gainsaying the meaning of Jesus identification of the field as the world, no I don't agree with that.

Well I am unsure what your disagreement is as I thought you said to me earlier that the wheat and tares are also in the church of the world. For me what your trying to argue here that the wheat and the tares are not in the church. If you agree that the wheat and the tares are in the church your agreeing with what has been shared with you here and conceding from what I can see in your posts and agreeing with the SOP in COL even if your not directly saying as such. Do you agree that the wheat and the tares are also in the Church that is in the world?

 

[tall73]

Well I am unsure what your disagreement is as I thought you said to me earlier that the wheat and tares are also in the church of the world. For me what your trying to argue here that the wheat and the tares are not in the church. If you agree that the wheat and the tares are in the church your agreeing with what has been shared with you here and conceding from what I can see in your posts and agreeing with the SOP in COL even if your not directly saying as such. I am not sure why you cannot see this to be honest. Do you agree that the wheat and the tares are also in the Church that is in the world?

Let's try again....

The field is the world.

In the world are believers and unbelievers, side by side.

Now not stated in the parable, but it is also true, in the church there are believers and unbelievers side by side.

I think Ellen White would agree with those statements.

However, what she wrote was something different. She tried to tell us what Jesus meant when He said the world is something else--the church of God in the world.

He said the world. He meant the world.

If you want to talk about the implications for the church, fine. But the world is still the field. And true believers and true non-believers are side by side in the field (and in the church, but it is not stated in the parable).