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Is the Seventh Day Adventist Church orthodox

tall73

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The church of Christ on Earth - is in the world
The end point for that parable is the world where we have both wheat and tares and the 2nd coming.

Bob, if I say to you that my house represents the world, and you say "the fishbowl is in the house, so it is the world", that wouldn't make sense. If the world is the field, that is the focus. If you want to make a part of the world the focus you have to demonstrate how.

The two groups are identified. They are in the world. It says nothing about the church. Lot's of things are in the world. But if He does not limit the scope, you cannot either.

The proposal was that every single child of the evil one be pulled out of of the field of the world.

The entire world is divided into wheat and tares at the end of that parable - at the 2nd coming

That should be a clue to you. Because the entire world is not in the visible church. And the wheat in the field are the wheat in the barn.

The tares in the field are the tares in the fire.
 
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BobRyan

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I agree that if we step back to the fall of Lucifer - the angels in heaven were surprised to find angels choosing rebellion and then war in heaven. That was a big shock to them.

They were surprised to see Adam and Eve fail.

They were not surprised that once Adam and Eve fell - their descendants had a sinful nature and were prone to rebellion. From that point right up until Matt 13 nobody but nobody was surprised to find that lost people are in the world.

Because it is His field! He made the world.

At the time of Matt 13 - it is easy to find a being/group who would be surprised to find that Christ's new church would have even one tare in it - and it is impossible to find even one being in heaven or on earth where the person would be shocked to find that the world had a tare/lost-person in it.

Someone who seriously thought all people were wheat put there by Christ Himself then then big-surprise there is a tare on Earth. That is a hard case to make in Matt 13 given all the examples of lost people Christ just gave in Matt 13 in the parable of the sower and different kinds of ground.
 
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tall73

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At the time of Matt 13 - it is easy to find a being/group who would be surprised to find that Christ's new church would have even one tare in it - and it is impossible to find even one being in heaven or on earth where the person would be shocked to find that the world had a tare/lost-person in it.

Bob the seeds didn't start being planted at the time of the disciples.

The world didn't start having wheat and tares at the time of the disciples--unless again you are changing the scope and think it is only in the NT--but then you haven't demonstrated that from the text either.

The first child of the evil one happened considerably before the disciples.
 
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BobRyan

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That should be a clue to you. Because the entire world is not in the visible church.

I agreed early on that the visible church of Christ in the world is only a part of the world and I also agree that at the second coming all the tares are dealt with (whether in the church or outside of it) and all the wheat are dealt with (whether inside the church or outside of it). Also my definitions-post makes that very clear.
 
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BobRyan

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The first child of the evil one happened considerably before the disciples.

And before Matt 13. The idea that even one being existed at the time Christ was telling that parable that would be surprised to find a tare in the world - is a hard sell to make.

It is much more natural to the text to say that the disciples at that time would not have expected the church of Christ to have even a single tare in it. In fact they weren't even expecting Judas to be a tare.
 
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BobRyan

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Bob, if I say to you that my house represents the world, and you say "the fishbowl is in the house, so it is the world", that wouldn't make sense.

That is a good point. But if you said that your house represents the world then started talking about a fish in the living room and whether it should be fed or not - I might get to that point.
 
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tall73

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I agree that if we step back to the fall of Lucifer - the angels in heaven were surprised to find angels choosing rebellion and then war in heaven. That was a big shock to them.

They were surprised to see Adam and Eve fail.

They were not surprised that once Adam and Eve fell - their descendants had a sinful nature and were prone to rebellion. From that point right up until Matt 13 nobody but nobody was surprised to find that lost people are in the world.

If you think the wheat and the tares in the end represent all the saved and lost of humankind then that includes all the way back to Adam.

And it is not at all clear that the angels knew what the whole plan was because they were still looking into it in Peter's day even after much was revealed.
 
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tall73

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That is a good point. But if you said that your house represents the world then started talking about a fish in the living room and whether it should be fed or not - I might get to that point.

Then show me where it says the church.

You already admitted at the end it is all lost and all saved.

Then that is what it is all the way through. The wheat at the beginning are the same at the end. All that happened was they reached the harvest, and they were put in the barn.
 
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tall73

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It is much more natural to the text to say that the disciples at that time would not have expected the church of Christ to have even a single tare in it.

And did Jesus tell them not to remove sinners from the church Bob? I think you know.

1 Corinthians 5, Matthew 18.

You even quoted, by their fruit you will know them in regards to false prophets. Do you think that meant they were supposed to listen to them anyway?
 
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BobRyan

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Then show me where it says the church.

It says that on Earth there are tares in Christ's "kingdom" which were not expected. And that can only be the visible church of Christ.

1. That is the only way we can have even on being taking the view of surprise that even one tare is in it.
2. That is the kingdom "of Christ" with tares in it on Earth.
3. That is the only way the parable works with the church still having the mission to evangelize the world - rather than simply incinerating the world as God's plan.
 
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tall73

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It is much more natural to the text to say that the disciples at that time would not have expected the church of Christ to have even a single tare in it. In fact they weren't even expecting Judas to be a tare.

Then the parable wouldn't fit them. The master was asked about the tares. And He answered. Here they are told by Jesus before it happens, and wouldn't need to ask Him. Because He is relating something that happened when the problem was first discovered.

If you are correct about the wheat being all the righteous, and the tares being all the wicked, that fact was discovered long before.
 
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BobRyan

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And did Jesus tell them not to remove sinners from the church Bob? I think you know.

1 Corinthians 5, Matthew 18.

1 Cor 5 - they are told to remove sinners from the church - not sure why you are bringing that one in. It shows that the servants wanting to remove the tares is a very reasonable response given that in certain extreme cases they must do it.

Matt 18 they are supposed to forgive. And only in extreme cases to remove sinners.

Matthew Henry points this out as well - that in extreme cases discipline is needed and disfellowship but in most cases church leadership needs to work things out rather than expelling people.
 
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BobRyan

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Then the parable wouldn't fit them. The master was asked about the tares. And He answered. Here they are told by Jesus before it happens, and wouldn't need to ask Him. Because He is relating something that happened when the problem was first discovered.

If you are correct about the wheat being all the righteous, and the tares being all the wicked, that fact was discovered long before.

It is the disciples that would be shocked to find that in Christ's newly started church - there would be tares... just as at that very moment they would be surprised to find that Judas was a tare.

Christ is not instructing them in how to run the universe - He is instructing them as the future leaders of the newly started Christian church.

Adam Clarke starts off with the view of the church and sinners in the church but near the end of this he does get to your larger view of the entire problem with sin in the universe.

Adam Clarke's commentary on Matt 13
Verse 25
But while men slept - When the professors were lukewarm, and the pastors indolent, his enemy came and sowed tares, ζιζανια degenerate, or bastard wheat. The righteous and the wicked are often mingled in the visible Church. Every Christian society, how pure soever its principles may be, has its bastard wheat - those who bear a resemblance to the good, but whose hearts are not right with God. He who sows this bastard wheat among God's people is here styled God's enemy; and he may be considered also as a sower of them who permits them to be sown and to spring up through his negligence. Wo to the indolent pastors, who permit the souls under their care to be corrupted by error and sin! This word does not, I believe, occur in any of the Greek classics, nor in Dioscorides; but it may be seen in the Geoponica, or Greek writers De Re Rustica: see the edition by Niclas, vol. i. lib. ii. c. 43, where το ζιζανιον is said to be the same which the Greeks call αιρα ; and Florentinus, the author, says, Το ζιζανιον, το λεγομενον Αιρα, φθειρει νον σιτον, αρτοις δε μιγνυμενη, σκοτοι τους εσθιοντας . "Zizanion, which is called αιρα, darnel, injures the wheat; and, mixed in the bread, causes dimness of the eyes to those who eat of it." And the author might have added vertigo also. But this does not seem to be the grain to which our Lord alludes.

The word ζιζανια, zizania, which is here translated tares, and which should rather be translated bastard or degenerate wheat, is a Chaldee word; and its meaning must be sought in the rabbinical writers. In a treatise in the Mishna called Kelayim, which treats expressly on different kinds of seeds, the word זונים zunim, or זונין zunin, is used for bastard or degenerated wheat; that which was wholly a right seed in the beginning, but afterwards became degenerate - the ear not being so large, nor the grains in such quantity, as formerly, nor the corn so good in quality. In Psalm 144:13, the words זן אל מזן mizzan al zen, are translated all manner of store; but they properly signify, from species to species: might not the Chaldee word זונין zunin, and the Greek word ζιζανια, zizania, come from the psalmist's זנזן zanzan, which might have signified a mixture of grain of any kind, and be here used to point out the mixing bastard or degenerate wheat among good seed wheat? The Persic translator renders it telkh daneh, bitter grain; but it seems to signify merely degenerate wheat. This interpretation throws much light on the scope and design of the whole passage. Christ seems to refer, first, to the origin of evil. God sowed good seed in his field; made man in his own image and likeness: but the enemy, the devil, ( Matthew 13:39;), corrupted this good seed, and caused it to degenerate. Secondly, he seems to refer to the state of the Jewish people: God had sowed them, at first, wholly a right seed, but now they were become utterly degenerate, and about to be plucked up and destroyed by the Roman armies, which were the angels or messengers of God's justice, whom he had commissioned to sweep these rebellious people from the face of the land. Thirdly, he seems to refer also to the state in which the world shall be found, when he comes to judge it. The righteous and the wicked shall be permitted to grow together, till God comes to make a full and final separation.
 
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tall73

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It says that on Earth there are tares in Christ's "kingdom" which were not expected. And that can only be the visible church of Christ

The whole world is only one part of Christ's kingdom.

Now Bob, if the tares could only be in the visible church, then how can all the wicked be in view at the end of the parable? Because it is at the end of this parable that you claim all the wicked and all the righteous are removed. And it is there that they are removed from the kingdom. Because at the end the wicked cannot inherit the kingdom of God. But the kingdom contains, and is greater than the whole world.

All the wicked are removed--not just the ones in the visible church. All, which means all in the world. All the righteous are saved, all, not just the ones in the visible church.

Are you saying there are parts of the world--the field--that Christ does not reign in, that is not His kingdom?

Is He renting that part of the field?


3. That is the only way the parable works with the church still having the mission to evangelize the world - rather than simply incinerating the world as God's plan.

The church were not the ones outside of the world who proposed to remove the sons of the evil one at one time long before the harvest, after they were just planted.

And of course evangelism is not part of this parable either, though addressed in others. All are seen as one or the other, and they are treated as such.
 
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BobRyan

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The whole world is only one part of Christ's kingdom.

Now Bob, if the tares could only be in the visible church, then how can all the wicked be in view at the end of the parable?

Just as we saw with Matt 7 "Lord Lord did we not prophesy in your name" yet in the end it is all the wicked on the wide road and all the saints on the narrow road.

It is the same pattern.
 
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tall73

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1 Cor 5 - they are told to remove sinners from the church - not sure why you are bringing that one in. It shows that the servants wanting to remove the tares is a very reasonable response given that in certain extreme cases they must do it.

Bob, they hadn't been told to do it yet. Remember, your whole argument rests on them not knowing it was a problem. But more than that, they were not the ones to ask. He already told them in this parable if that is what He is saying. But it is not.

And how much sense would it make to say to not do it if they were to do it?

Matt 18 they are supposed to forgive. And only in extreme cases to remove sinners.
That is not waiting until the harvest Bob if they remove sinners. Those who don't forgive, those who are sexually immoral, those who are false prophets, those who are divisive after a warning (Titus). Paul turned two people over to Satan so they would not blaspheme. That is not waiting until the harvest.

Matthew Henry points this out as well - that in extreme cases discipline is needed and disfellowship but in most cases church leadership needs to work things out rather than expelling people.

That is hardly stated in the parable though, is it? And neither is the church.
 
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BobRyan

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Are you saying there are parts of the world--the field--that Christ does not reign in, that is not His kingdom? .

Yes.

John 18:36
36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would be fighting so that I would not be handed over to the Jews; but as it is, My kingdom is not of this realm.”

Luke 4
5 Then the devil, taking Him up on a high mountain, showed Him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time. 6 And the devil said to Him, “All this authority I will give You, and their glory; for this has been delivered to me, and I give it to whomever I wish. 7 Therefore, if You will worship before me, all will be Yours.”


Matt 4
8 Again, the devil *took Him along to a very high mountain and *showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory; 9 and he said to Him, “All these things I will give You, if You fall down and worship me.” 10 Then Jesus *said to him, “Go away, Satan! For it is written: ‘You shall worship the Lord your God, and serve Him only.’”

2 Cor 4:4 4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they will not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
 
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tall73

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Christ is not instructing them in how to run the universe - He is instructing them as the future leaders of the newly started Christian church.

He is instructing them that He is in charge of the universe, and already has a plan for sin at the harvest.

Now, what do you think He was telling them to do here in this related parable told almost immediately after, and on related themes?

47 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a dragnet that was cast into the sea and gathered some of every kind, 48 which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but threw the bad away. 49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just, 50 and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.”


51 Jesus said to them, “Have you understood all these things?”

They said to Him, “Yes, Lord.”


Notice that He did not instruct them on anything they had to do. It was about God's working, not theirs. He wanted them to understand His plan.
 
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tall73

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Just as we saw with Matt 7 "Lord Lord did we not prophesy in your name" yet in the end it is all the wicked on the wide road and all the saints on the narrow road.

It is the same pattern.

It is not the same pattern.

In the weeds they do not claim such. But more importantly the same tares that were there in the beginning were burned at the end.

Why did you not address that? The tares in the field at the beginning were the same in the end. But now it was the harvest.
 
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BobRyan

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Bob, they hadn't been told to do it yet. Remember, your whole argument rests on them not knowing it was a problem.

His parable informs them to expect the problem and as you pointed out - in Matt 18.. so also does Matt 18 tell them to expect that problem in the church
 
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