Is the Seventh Day Adventist Church orthodox

[tall73]

If a lost person totally not connected to the church is "not allowed in church" in some remote country it does not cause people in my local congregation to be lost.

Bob, the proposal was not to remove a person from a church.

a. The word church was not mentioned.

b. The field is the world. They would be removed from the world--destroyed--dead--no more.

c. It was ALL of the tares that were proposed to be removed, in one action, by those outside the field--outside the world.

Same is true for many of the lost people even in my own city - if they have no relationship with a church member that church member is not in danger of being lost simply because that lost person died of the flu etc.

Do they have a chance of questioning God's goodness if He destroys the wicked immediately?

The action of the servants is an action of one who has oversight and so the servants have to be humans in the church that have some sort of authority to make a decision or to recognize a lost person

No. Because people in the church don't recognize every lost person. Nor could they possibly remove all of them. The servant is OUTSIDE the world. Discussing the world and its inhabitants. Discussing whether to uproot everything evil.

And of course if you think it is the church, that doesn't make sense either. We are to judge in the church. Matthew 18 includes it. I Corinthians 5 includes it.

 

[BobRyan]

Do they have a chance of questioning God's goodness if He destroys the wicked immediately?

Is the parable about immediately incinerating the lost world rather than engaging in evangelism in your POV?

 

[tall73]

Is the parable about immediately incinerating the lost world rather than engaging in evangelism in your POV?

The parable is about whether all the evil people in the world should be immediately destroyed after it was found they were planted by the evil one.

The answer was no. It is about the problem of evil.

 

[BobRyan]

c. It was ALL of the tares that were proposed to be removed, in one action, by those outside the field--outside the world.

What group in heaven or on Earth would be the servants who expected no lost people would be in the world at the time Christ was speaking to the disciples in Matt 13 in your POV (given that Christ just gave a parable in Matt 13 of a lot of lost people in the church not just in the world in the case of the sower and the kinds of ground).

 

[tall73]

What group in heaven or on Earth would be the servants who expected no lost people would be in the world at the time Christ was speaking to the disciples in Matt 13 in you POV (given that Christ just gave a parable in Matt 13 of a lot of lost people in the church not just in the world in the case of the sower and the kinds of ground).

Bob, it is amazing you are suddenly having amnesia about a theme Ellen White wrote about extensively. You don't know of angels or other intelligences that God made being part of the Great Controversy and the question of sin? Or asking questions? Or having an interest in God's dealing with the conflict with the evil one? You don't remember angels looking into the plan of salvation?

You don't remember Satan appearing in God's counsel in Job? You don't remember that Revelation 12 indicated His being cast down after the cross by the blood of the lamb, and that now the earth had to watch out? You don't remember those who left their estate and are now being held in chains for the judgment? You don't remember Satan's angels warring against the angels of God?

Also, there is a difference between the timing of the giving of the parable, and the timing of the events in the parable.

After the seeds were planted the problem was noted. Immediately the proposal is to remove every tare. The answer is no. Let them grow until the harvest.

When do you think the problem of the evil one planting happened?

Jesus taught a lot of things about God's plan. And here He discussed evil in the world. It was not God's doing. It was the evil one's doing. He discusses the plan to deal with sin, the harvest. Don't you think the disciples needed to know that?

And you still have not shown a single point in this parable where He mentions the church. He clearly defines the field as the world.

The question then is are all of the children of the evil one to be removed from the field by people outside the field, after they were discovered to be there.

In other words, are God's servants outside of the world going to remove the sons of the evil one from the world right now, before the harvest. God says no, wait until the harvest.

 

[BobRyan]

Is the parable about immediately incinerating the lost world rather than engaging in evangelism in your POV?

The parable is about whether all the evil people in the world should be immediately destroyed after it was found they were planted by the evil one.

The answer was no. It is about the problem of evil.

In your view then it appears that the Matt 13 discussion is about whether God should immediately stop all evangelism, incinerate all the wicked and take the righteous immediately to heaven - (even though this is before the cross and even though Matt 24 says evangelizing all the world is the mission of the church).

I think you are still challenged to find where anyone in heaven or on earth would be expected (as in the parable) to be surprised that there was even one tare in the world.

In any case it is hard to find Bible commentators viewing this as a discussion about whether the world should be immediately incinerated and the righteous taken to heaven in Matt 13.

Matthew Henry -
Verses 24-30
(also Matthew 13:36-43) . This parable represents the present and future state of the gospel church; Christ's care of it, the devil's enmity against it, the mixture there is in it of good and bad in this world, and the separation between them in the other world. So prone is fallen man to sin, that if the enemy sow the tares, he may go his way, they will spring up, and do hurt; whereas, when good seed is sown, it must be tended, watered, and fenced. The servants complained to their master; Sir, didst thou not sow good seed in thy field? No doubt he did; whatever is amiss in the church, we are sure it is not from Christ. Though gross transgressors, and such as openly oppose the gospel, ought to be separated from the society of the faithful, yet no human skill can make an exact separation. Those who oppose must not be cut off, but instructed, and that with meekness.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob, it is amazing you are suddenly having amnesia about a theme Ellen White wrote about extensively.

In fact I have not quoted Ellen White much at all in this discussion

B
You don't know of angels or other intelligences that God made being part of the Great Controversy and the question of sin?

Other than "Angels" mentioned in Matt 13 - I am just not seeing that dimension presented in the parable.

Is it your claim that Ellen White says that someone in the entire universe thinks no sinners are in the lost world outside of the church on Earth? Or are surprised that the wicked are here and are outside the church?

But nobody there listening to Christ in Matt 13 has given any indication that they would be surprised to find out that the world had lost people in it, wicked people in it - etc.

As Christ is launching the Christian Church it is easy to see how the disciples may have supposed that this new church - started by Christ would have only good guys in it. They themselves would be surprised at that very moment that Judas was a bad guy.

 

[tall73]

In your view then it appears that the Matt 13 discussion is about whether God should immediately stop all evangelism, incinerate all the wicked and take the righteous immediately to heaven - (even though this is before the cross and even though Matt 24 says evangelizing all the world is the mission of the church).

Of course. And I am not the only one saying it. In fact, you noted it yourself before we started looking at COL. And COL in the same chapter references it, but then also brings in a lot of other points unrelated.

The teaching of this parable is illustrated in God's own dealing with men and angels. Satan is a deceiver. When he sinned in heaven, even the loyal angels did not fully discern his character. This was why God did not at once destroy Satan. Had He done so, the holy angels would not have perceived the justice and love of God. A doubt of God's goodness would have been as evil seed that would yield the bitter fruit of sin and woe. Therefore the author of evil was spared, fully to develop his character. Through long ages God has borne the anguish of beholding the work of evil, He has given the infinite Gift of Calvary, rather than leave any to be deceived by the misrepresentations of the wicked one; for the tares could not be plucked up without danger of uprooting the precious grain.

I think you are still challenged to find where anyone in heaven or on earth would be expected (as in the parable) to be surprised that there was even one tare in the world.

I guess we will see if you still agree with that once it is from Ellen White.

In any case it is hard to find Bible commentators viewing this as a discussion about whether the world should be immediately incinerated and the righteous taken to heaven in Matt 13.

You ready to agree to every commentary I can find? I imagine non-Adventists would probably be fine with that.

Instead of finding commentators why don't you find where Jesus said the word church,

He said the world. The sons of the kingdom and the sons of the evil one are in the world together.

 

[tall73]

In fact I have not quoted Ellen White much at all in this discussion

You mean you haven't read her? I said you had amnesia about what she wrote. I didn't claim you quoted her. Few Adventists do here.

Other than "Angels" mentioned in Matt 13 - I am just not seeing that dimension presented in the parable.

You mean other than the ones who are also outside the field, work for the field owner, and also wind up doing what the others proposed right away, but only later?

These are all people outside the world discussing the world. The field is the world.

Is it your claim that Ellen White says that someone in the entire universe thinks no sinners are in the lost world outside of the church on Earth? Or are surprised that the wicked are here and are outside the church?

But nobody there listening to Christ in Matt 13 has given any indication that they would be surprised to find out that the world had lost people in it, wicked people in it - etc.

You have never met anyone who wonders why there is sin in the world? That is hard to believe. It was after the seed was planted they were surprised to find it. Then they were told to wait. They knew it was there then, but it was to be until the harvest.

As Christ is launching the Christian Church it is easy to see how the disciples may have supposed that this new church - started by Christ would have only good guys in it. They themselves would be surprised at that very moment that Judas was a bad guy.

Bob, you haven't shown where it is talking about the church.

It is talking about the field of the world.

 

[BobRyan]

I think you are still challenged to find where anyone in heaven or on earth would be expected (as in the parable) to be surprised that there was even one tare in the world.

I guess we will see if you still agree with that once it is from Ellen White.

I think you would also be challenge to find a single statement from Ellen White that she had identified even one person in heaven or on earth that thought there were not at least some wicked people on this world outside the Church.

You ready to agree to every commentary I can find? I imagine non-Adventists would probably be fine with that.

1. Well I am at least interested to know if you can find one going the direction you suggest. I note that Matthew Henry does not do it.
2. Also - once we have that sort of commentary it is very difficult to argue that only Ellen White would take the view that this has to do with people on Earth and includes the scope inside the church where church leaders should be careful not to disfellowship just because they suppose someone to be a tare.

 

[tall73]

I think you would also be challenge to find a single statement from Ellen White that she had identified even one person in heaven or on earth that thought there were not at least some wicked people on this world outside the Church.

I just posted how the angels did not fully understand what Satan did, from Ellen White. But as they saw the problem of wicked in the world, which God did not put there, God did not destroy Satan or his followers immediately.

1. Well I am at least interested to know if you can find one going the direction you suggest. I note that Matthew Henry does not do it.
2. Also - once we have that sort of commentary it is very difficult to argue that only Ellen White would take the view that this has to do with people on Earth and includes the scope inside the church where church leaders should be careful not to disfellowship just because they suppose someone to be a tare.

I have no idea if others do. And I have not looked. I am interested to see how many non-adventist commentaries agree with the IJ.

But most of all, I am waiting for you to address what Jesus said. The field is the world.

 

[BobRyan]

Bob, you haven't shown where it is talking about the church.

It is talking about the field of the world.

1. It is a context where the servants expect only Christ has sown the seed.
2. It is the context where the servants expect no tares - yet there are both wheat and tares
3. It is in the context where "there are tares in the kingdom of Christ" on Earth.

In this world there is only one place where all of that can be true

 

[BobRyan]

I have no idea if others do. And I have not looked. I am interested to see how many non-adventist commentaries agree with the IJ..

If you had a thread on the IJ where you said only Ellen White knows about it etc or that it cannot be found in the Bible then I suppose we can have that discussion. I love discussions on the Rev 14:6-7 judgment.

 

[BobRyan]

But most of all, I am waiting for you to address what Jesus said. The field is the world.

The church of Christ on Earth - is in the world
The end point for that parable is the world where we have both wheat and tares and the 2nd coming.

The visible church of Christ - is in the world
The invisible church of Christ - is in the world.
The entire world is divided into wheat and tares at the end of that parable - at the 2nd coming

 

[tall73]

1. Well I am at least interested to know if you can find one going the direction you suggest. I note that Matthew Henry does not do it.

The first one I checked did:

Robertson's Word Pictures.

The field is the world (ho de agros estin ho kosmos). The article with both “field” and “world” in Greek means that subject and predicate are coextensive and so interchangeable. It is extremely important to understand that both the good seed and the darnel (tares) are sown in the world, not in the Kingdom, not in the church. The separation comes at the consummation of the age

Out of his kingdom (ek tēs basileias autou). Out from the midst of the kingdom, because in every city the good and the bad are scattered and mixed together. Cf. ek mesou tōn dikaiōn in Mat_13:49 “from the midst of the righteous.” What this means is that, just as the wheat and the darnel are mixed together in the field till the separation at harvest, so the evil are mixed with the good in the world (the field).

 

[BobRyan]

I just posted how the angels did not fully understand what Satan did, from Ellen White.

I agree that if we step back to the fall of Lucifer - the angels in heaven were surprised to find angels choosing rebellion and then war in heaven. That was a big shock to them.

They were surprised to see Adam and Eve fail.

They were not surprised that once Adam and Eve fell - their descendants had a sinful nature and were prone to rebellion. From that point right up until Matt 13 nobody but nobody was surprised to find that lost people are in the world.

 

[tall73]

1. It is a context where the servants expect only Christ has sown the seed.

Because it is His field! He made the world.

2. It is the context where the servants expect no tares - yet there are both wheat and tares

Because all that the Lord made was good. But an enemy did this.

3. It is in the context where "there are tares in the kingdom of Christ" on Earth.

In this world there is only one place where all of that can be true

Yes, you said it...on earth. In the world. Incidentally that is exactly what it says--the field is the world.

 

[tall73]

If you had a thread on the IJ where you said only Ellen White knows about it etc or that it cannot be found in the Bible then I suppose we can have that discussion. I love discussions on the Rev 14:6-7 judgment.

We may. LGW would be happy to participate as well. And I have had many such discussions on here. But I think the point is clear. You don't go just by commentaries.

But you should go by what Christ said. He said the field is the world.

 

[BobRyan]

The first one I checked did:

Robertson's Word Pictures.

The field is the world (ho de agros estin ho kosmos). The article with both “field” and “world” in Greek means that subject and predicate are coextensive and so interchangeable. It is extremely important to understand that both the good seed and the darnel (tares) are sown in the world, not in the Kingdom, not in the church. The separation comes at the consummation of the age

Out of his kingdom (ek tēs basileias autou). Out from the midst of the kingdom, because in every city the good and the bad are scattered and mixed together. Cf. ek mesou tōn dikaiōn in Mat_13:49 “from the midst of the righteous.” What this means is that, just as the wheat and the darnel are mixed together in the field till the separation at harvest, so the evil are mixed with the good in the world (the field).

Good find. Robertson does not mention incinerating the world - but he does leave it as just "wheat and tares in the world". He provides no statement at all on the servants or what group in heaven or on earth would be surprised to find a tare in the world.

 

[BobRyan]

We may. LGW would be happy to participate as well. And I have had many such discussions on here. But I think the point is clear. You don't go just by commentaries. .

I have quoted from just two sources
1. The Bible
2. Matthew Henry's Commentary on Matt 13

I think that much is apparent.