Is the Seventh Day Adventist Church orthodox

[tall73]

No, your trying to argue that that the children of the kingdom are not God's Church in the world before the harvest when they are according to the scriptures. This is where your mistake is.

Matthew 13:36 [38], The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one.

Why is it you say the "children of the kingdom" are "God's Church in the world"

And then the Scripture you posts says nothing at all like "God's Church in the world"?

You know what does say that? Ellen White. I thought you didn't like to quote Ellen White?

I thought you like to respond to everything with Scripture?

The good seed at the beginning grows into the wheat. The wheat is brought into the barn at the end. It is the same wheat the whole time.

The tares at the beginning are planted and are still tares at the end. They are burned. It is the same tares.

The field is the world.

The good seed/wheat/sons of the kingdom/righteous in the kingdom of their father

are contrasted with the

tares/sons of the evil one/those who commit lawlessness.

They are side by side in the world until the harvest. Then the righteous are in the kingdom of their Father, and the wicked are removed from the kingdom.

 

[tall73]

The good seed are the children of the kingdom in the world (the Church) before the harvest (the end of the world and the second coming) at which time the separation of the wheat and the tares begin Matthew 13:24-30; 37-43; Matthew 7:21-23
Hope this is helpful

Please stop quoting Ellen White instead of Scripture when are trying to tell me what Scripture says. The phrase "the church of God" does not appear in the parable.

Now,

24 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field; 25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way. 26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.” ’ ”


The wheat are the wheat before the harvest, and they are wheat in the barn after the harevest. It is the same wheat. It is the same throughout.

The tares are tares from start, and at the end they are burned.

The field is the world.

The tares and wheat are side by side in the world.

At the end the wheat are in the barn and the tares are burned.

Nothing about the church is mentioned.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Why is it you say the "children of the kingdom" are "God's Church in the world"

And then the Scripture you posts says nothing at all like "God's Church in the world"?

You know what does say that? Ellen White. I thought you didn't like to quote Ellen White?

I thought you like to respond to everything with Scripture?

The good seed at the beginning grows into the wheat. The wheat is brought into the barn at the end. It is the same wheat the whole time.

The tares at the beginning are planted and are still tares at the end. They are burned. It is the same tares.

The field is the world.

The good seed/wheat/sons of the kingdom/righteous in the kingdom of their father

are contrasted with the

tares/sons of the evil one/those who commit lawlessness.

They are side by side in the world until the harvest. Then the righteous are in the kingdom of their Father, and the wicked are removed from the kingdom.

No. I have only quoted scripture which you keep leaving out. Please read the rest of the post you are leaving out here. The children of the kingdom are God's Church according to scripture (Mark 16:18; Matthew 18:17; Acts of the Apostles 2:47; 5:11; 8:1; 11:2; 12:5; 1 Corinthians 12:28 etc) . Are you seriously trying to argue that the children of the kingdom are not God's Church?

Your trying to argue that that the children of the kingdom are not God's Church in the world before the harvest when they are according to the scriptures. This is where your mistake is.

Matthew 13:38 [38], The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one.

Mathew 13:26-30, [26] But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.[27], So the servants of the householder came and said to him, Sir, did not you sow good seed in your field? from where then has it tares? [28], He said to them, An enemy has done this. The servants said to him, Will you then that we go and gather them up? [29], But he said, No; lest while you gather up the tares, you root up also the wheat with them. [30], Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather you together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

The good seed are the children of the kingdom in the world (the Church) before the harvest (the end of the world and the second coming) at which time the separation of the wheat and the tares begin Matthew 13:24-30; 37-43; Matthew 7:21-23.
Hope this is helpful

 

[tall73]

No. I have only quoted scripture which you keep leaving out. Please read the rest of the post you are leaving out here. The children of the kingdom are God's Church according to scripture. Are you seriously trying to argue that the children of the kingdom are not God's Church?

I am saying, the sons of the kingdom are all believers throughout time. That means people inside the visible church, people outside the visible church. the faithful in the OT, all the righteous.

Here are the terms used in the parable for this group:

good seed/wheat/sons of the kingdom/righteous in the kingdom of the Father.

If you think of the above as "the church", great.

But the field is the world. That is where the righteous live next to the wicked.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

I am saying, the sons of the kingdom are all believers throughout time. That means people inside the visible church, people outside the visible church. the faithful in the OT, all the righteous.

Here are the terms used in the parable for this group:

good seed/wheat/sons of the kingdom/righteous in the kingdom of the Father.

If you think of the above as "the church", great.

But the field is the world. That is where the righteous live next to the wicked.

If the children of the kingdom are God's Church as shown through the scriptures in the post above yours then the SOP in COL agrees with scripture and your claims here are simply not true and unfounded.

 

[tall73]

If the children of the kingdom are God's Church as shown through the scriptures in the post above yours then the SOP in COL agrees with scripture and your claims here are not true.

If you are going to use terms not found in the parable then we need to define terms.

When you say the children of the kingdom are God's church, please idenfity which definition of "church" you are using. Bob proposed defining terms to help with the discussion. I am using definitions that do not use the kingdom, tares, wheat etc. because you have already chosen a particular term from the parable that you believe is the same as the church.

So which of these definitions do you mean by the church? Or if you have some other definition, please provide it.

The Visible Church of Christ: In local congregations, the people who gather in churches or take the name of Jesus, professed believers in God.

The invisible church of Christ: True believers who are not associated with with any visible church. They are believers and righteous, but not known to be so to others.

The Universal Church:
All righteous believers, whether in a local church or not. This does not include any unbelievers.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

If you are going to use terms not found in the parable then we need to define terms.

When you say the children of the kingdom are God's church, please idenfity which definition of "church" you are using. Bob proposed defining terms to help with the discussion. I am using definitions that do not use the kingdom, tares, wheat etc. because you have already chosen a particular term from the parable that you believe is the same as the church.

So which of these definitions do you mean by the church? Or if you have some other definition, please provide it.

The Visible Church of Christ: In local congregations, the people who gather in churches or take the name of Jesus, professed believers in God.

The invisible church of Christ: True believers who are not associated with with any visible church. They are believers and righteous, but not known to be so to others.

The Universal Church:
All righteous believers, whether in a local church or not. This does not include any unbelievers.

Yes I have only used the terms found in scripture. Are you still trying to argue that "the children of the Kingdom" are not God's Church in the world prior to the harvest (second coming)? - Matthew 13:38; Matthew 7:21-23

 

[tall73]

Yes I have only used the terms found in scripture. Are you still trying to argue that "the children of the Kingdom" are not God's Church in the world prior to the harvest (second coming)? - Matthew 7:21-23

How could I agree to the two being the same when you have not said what one of them means in your thinking?

You have a choice to make. Either pick a definition of church so I can see what you are claiming. Or there is nothing more to talk about because I do not know what you mean, so I cannot say if they are the same.

You say the term church is the children of the kingdom. What do you mean by church?

The Visible Church of Christ: In local congregations, the people who gather in churches or take the name of Jesus, professed believers in God.

The invisible church of Christ: True believers who are not associated with with any visible church. They are believers and righteous, but not known to be so to others.

The Universal Church:
All righteous believers, whether in a local church or not. This does not include any unbelievers.

Spell out other definition:

 

[LoveGodsWord]

How could I agree to the two being the same when you have not said what one of them means in your thinking?

You have a choice to make. Either pick a definition of church so I can see what you are claiming. Or there is nothing more to talk about because I do not know what you mean, so I cannot say if they are the same.

You say the term church is the children of the kingdom. What do you mean by church?

The Visible Church of Christ: In local congregations, the people who gather in churches or take the name of Jesus, professed believers in God.

The invisible church of Christ: True believers who are not associated with with any visible church. They are believers and righteous, but not known to be so to others.

The Universal Church:
All righteous believers, whether in a local church or not. This does not include any unbelievers.

Spell out other definition:

You have been provided scripture, they are God's Words not mine. What is it you are having problems with? As posted earlier the good seed are the children of the kingdom in the world (the Church) before the harvest (the end of the world and the second coming) at which time the separation of the wheat and the tares begin Matthew 13:24-30; 37-43; Matthew 7:21-23.

 

[atpollard]

Is the Seventh Day Adventist Church orthodox?

No.

They do not adhere to the traditional beliefs that define “orthodoxy”. Their beliefs are most likely “heterodox”.

 

[tall73]

You have been provided scripture, they are God's Words not mine. What is it you are having problems with?

You know exactly what the problem is because I just told you. You are using the term "Church" but will not define how you are using it.

The Scriptures use the term church in multiple ways. Pick your definition or there is nothing to discuss.

 

[tall73]

Matthew 13:24-30; 37-43; Matthew 7:21-23.

Neither of these contain the word church. Pick a definition.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Neither of these contain the word church. Pick a definition.

Nonsense. "Children of the kingdom" - Matthew 13:38 are the church of God through all time prior to the second coming. These are God's Words not mine. As posted earlier the good seed are "the children of the kingdom in the world" (the Church) before the harvest (the end of the world and the second coming) at which time the separation of the wheat and the tares begin Matthew 13:24-30; 37-43; Matthew 7:21-23. It seems we are going around in circles. So I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

 

[tall73]

Nonsense. "Children of the kingdom" - Matthew 13:38 are the church of God through all time prior to the second coming.

The church of true believers and only believers?

The visible church?

Again, you are not saying.

These are God's Words not mine. As posted earlier the good seed are "the children of the kingdom in the world" (the Church) before the harvest (the end of the world and the second coming) at which time the separation of the wheat and the tares begin Matthew 13:24-30; 37-43; Matthew 7:21-23. It seems we are going around in circles. So I guess we will have to agree to disagree.

I gave you three definitions to select. I gave you the option of spelling out a different one. You wouldn't do it. We are going around in circles, because, as I said of our previous conversation, you are not actually responding to what I am saying.

I am asking you to help me understand your position. Yet instead of trying to help me understand it in a way I have said I could understand it, you keep saying my asking you to help me understand it is non-sense.

I need your help to understand what you mean. But since I am the one trying to understand, you are going to have to put it in a way I can understand. I am suggesting a way for you to help me understand.

Here are three options for the meaning of the church that I can understand. Pick one. Or write out your own in a similar format.

The Visible Church of Christ: In local congregations, the people who gather in churches or take the name of Jesus, professed believers in God.

The invisible church of Christ: True believers who are not associated with with any visible church. They are believers and righteous, but not known to be so to others.

The Universal Church:
All righteous believers, whether in a local church or not. This does not include any unbelievers.

 

[tall73]

Is the Seventh Day Adventist Church orthodox?

No.

They do not adhere to the traditional beliefs that define “orthodoxy”. Their beliefs are most likely “heterodox”.

It does seem to be the general consensus that they have some beliefs considered heterodox by most other churches. And I don't think they would disagree, but just state that their views are nonetheless biblical and correct.

 

[tall73]

Not sure I responded to all of this before, so doing so now.

Ok I have now read it - and this is my response to 598

In the definition list I point to the visible church of Christ having both wheat and tares - and this is what the parable focuses on until the very end where it is all the world divided into wheat and tares and tares removed with 100% accuracy.

This is part of what I do not understand. To me the wheat is wheat all the way through. it is wheat in the field, and it is wheat when it goes to the barn.

For that reason I see that as talking about the universal church, with the definition, all believers, in all time, the righteous.

The wheat are seen as wheat without changing. And the tares are seen as tares without changing. This is why I don't understand the imposition of the idea of the visible church.

You have the world, with righteous and wicked people living together side by side. At the end the righteous are in the kingdom, and the wicked destroyed.

The invisible church of Christ could only have wheat in it - if it is defined as not being the visible church and only includes the wheat in the otherwise lost world.

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

Yes, the invisible would be only wheat. And I consider it part of the overall picture of the wheat which is all true believers in all times.

I think you already agreed that the world has all the wheat and all the tares. This means that "Christ's Kingdom" is a subset of the term "world" by definition. So then "the World" could not be a subset of Christ's Kingdom on Earth.

I think i clarified this with the diagram. However, the world, the field is where the sons of the kingdom and the sons of the evil one are planted. There is no subset of the field, just wheat and tares together, side by side.

But the field is the world, and it is a subset of God's kingdom. The wheat which stayed wheat all the way through at the end is in God's barn, or the reality, in the kingdom of the Father.

The tares, which stayed tares, are destroyed and removed from the kingdom.

In the parable the "Kingdom of heaven" is like a land owner that only sows wheat in the field but someone else sows tares in it. It is not clear that the term "Kingdom of heaven" is not encompassing that entire scenario because as you point out Heaven overrules over all of it not just part of it. The conditions and boundaries are set by the rules of the "Kingdom of heaven" and even the devil has to abide by the limits God sets. This is why Christ said to Peter that Satan desired to sift him as wheat - but Christ prayed that Peter's faith would not fail.

It is like saying "the kingdom of heaven has setup a chess tournament and created the boards, the pieces, and the rules", then describing how it plays out.

Agreed but that is like saying "at the end of the tournament only one will win and that will be this guy with the white hat". It is still all within the boundary/limits set by the Kingdom of Heaven.

The kingdom of heaven seems to be the kingdom with a King and throne in heaven. And it is using the analogy associated with kingdoms. The children of the kingdom are the heirs. In the end they reign with the King.

Though I agree, since God is sovereign over all things this means that even the great controversy theme plays out within the bounds He sets. He gives limits to Satan in the case of Job, for instance, and you already pointed out Peter.

But that is the point, this is looking at that controversy from a high level picture. There are righteous and unrighteous side by side in the world. God does not destroy evil and remove it immediately but waits until the harvest when they are separated.

Agreed and in order to do that - has to be in "in it". A contaminate that is isolated into its own sealed container does not contaminate anything.

Sure, but the kingdom of God is everything. He is the King over everything that was ever made, including the world. And the tares are in the world. They are the field where the sons of the kingdom live next to the sons of the evil one.

The harvest, the judgment, the duration of the probationary time, the rules and limits - it is all set and managed by the Kingdom of Heaven and as you note it creates a future where God rules on Earth and there is no rebellion at all.

Yes, that is the teaching here. It is theodicy. He is painting for His disciples the broad strokes of the plan of salvation, and the end of sin.

We agree that the saints enter the kingdom of heaven (as in actually going literally to heaven) at the second coming - the question we are resolving is the various descriptions of "Christ's Kingdom" in Matt 13 before the second coming and if that is in fact "the church of Christ" or not.

The kingdom of heaven is all encompassing. The universal church of all true believers throughout time is to me pictured by the wheat which starts wheat and ends wheat. But it is not called the church in the parable.

The sons of the kingdom are called that before the harvest. And the same is true at the end. They are now the righteous actually in the kingdom.

His (Christ's) Kingdom: has tares in it not just wheat - - according to vs 41 of Matt 13

They are said in the chapter - to remove the bad element from Christ's kingdom.

41 The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,

That is the detail that shows Christ's kingdom (Christ's church) as having both wheat and tares until a specific time in the future where they take the tares out.

I think again the issue is you equate Christ's kingdom to the church. But the kingdom is more than just the church. Christ, the Son of Man, rules at the right hand of God in the heavenly places above all principality, power, might and dominion, and every name. That is why at His return every knee bows.

Ephesians 1:19 and what is the exceeding greatness of His power toward us who believe, according to the working of His mighty power 20 which He worked in Christ when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come.

Matt 13:41 appears to show that: "Christ's Kingdom" in the world = "His Kingdom" that has stumbling blocks in it.

Which is the point as I think you are saying, where we appear to differ.

Well we don't differ that the kingdom has tares before the harvest. We differ as to what the definition of the kingdom is, and you are using the term "church" but it is not in the text.

My view is that the kingdom is all of the realms of the King. And that fits with a lot of texts. It certainly includes heaven or it could hardly be the kingdom of Heaven. And it includes the earth, because in this story that is the field of the King.

And that is the point. In the earth...the field.....there are both righteous and wicked.

And they stay righteous and wicked in this story, because it is dealing with the overall problem of sin in the world, and in His kingdom.

The tares are in the world before the harvest. They are contaminating the kingdom. They are not in the world after, but are destroyed.

The sons of the kingdom on the other hand are shining in the kingdom of their Father/ which includes all created things, His whole realm.

 

[tall73]

agreed - but in that case you are distinguishing non-human beings from humans

The World field - in my diagram would have all wheat and all tares inside that circle. There is no "harvest" of non-humans in the parable so they are not in scope. But in the harvest both wheat and tares are apparent.

For now this is the before-and after harvest diagrams for my understanding.

Is the "Post-harvest" diagram the same for yours?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

The church of true believers and only believers?

The visible church?

Again, you are not saying.




I gave you three definitions to select. I gave you the option of spelling out a different one. You wouldn't do it. We are going around in circles, because, as I said of our previous conversation, you are not actually responding to what I am saying.

I am asking you to help me understand your position. Yet instead of trying to help me understand it in a way I have said I could understand it, you keep saying my asking you to help me understand it is non-sense.

I need your help to understand what you mean. But since I am the one trying to understand, you are going to have to put it in a way I can understand. I am suggesting a way for you to help me understand.

Here are three options for the meaning of the church that I can understand. Pick one. Or write out your own in a similar format.

The Visible Church of Christ: In local congregations, the people who gather in churches or take the name of Jesus, professed believers in God.

The invisible church of Christ: True believers who are not associated with with any visible church. They are believers and righteous, but not known to be so to others.

The Universal Church:
All righteous believers, whether in a local church or not. This does not include any unbelievers.

Thank you but I do not need your definitions. I believe I have provided what the scripture says. I really cannot post any clearer to you than what has been posted in the scriptures already. Your trying to make the argument about something is not there.

Fact is though the scriptures (not me) say that "the good seed are the children of the kingdom" which are God's Church according to scripture (Mark 16:18; Matthew 18:17; Acts of the Apostles 2:47; 5:11; 8:1; 11:2; 12:5; 1 Corinthians 12:28 etc). "The children of the kingdom" - Matthew 13:38 are the church of God in the world through all time prior to the second coming.

Why are you still trying to argue that the children of the kingdom are not God's Church in the world?

Matthew 13:38 [38], The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one.

The tares are planted in among "the children of the kingdom" (the Church) and they are left together to grow until the harvest (2nd coming)...

Mathew 13:26-30, [26] But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.[27], So the servants of the householder came and said to him, Sir, did not you sow good seed in your field? from where then has it tares? [28], He said to them, An enemy has done this. The servants said to him, Will you then that we go and gather them up? [29], But he said, No; lest while you gather up the tares, you root up also the wheat with them. [30], Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather you together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

The good seed are the children of the kingdom in the world (the Church in the world) before the harvest (the end of the world and the second coming) at which time the separation of the wheat and the tares begin Matthew 13:24-30; 37-43; Matthew 7:21-23.

If "the children of the kingdom" are God's Church as shown through the scriptures here which are Gods' Words not mine, than the SOP in COL agrees with scripture and your claims here are simply not true and unfounded.

I think for me this is where I might bow out until the topic changes as most of this is repetition and it does not seem you can see your mistake here so we should agree to disagree.

Thank you for the discussion.

 

[tall73]

Thank you but I do not need your definitions.

I believe I have provided what the scripture says. I really cannot post any clearer to you than what has been posted in the scriptures already.

Fact is though the scriptures (not me) say that "the good seed are the children of the kingdom" which are God's Church according to scripture (Mark 16:18; Matthew 18:17; Acts of the Apostles 2:47; 5:11; 8:1; 11:2; 12:5; 1 Corinthians 12:28 etc).

So based on these Scriptures (and others you do not mention) you equate the "sons of the kingdom" with "God's Church." Let's see what they say.

Mark 16:18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.”

It doesn't mention the kingdom at all. It does not mention the word church at all. It describes ones who will do things in Christ's name per the context.

Matthew 18:17 And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.

It does not mention the kingdom at all. It does mention a particular one who refuses to hear the local church body.

Acts 2:47 praising God and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved.

It does not mention the kingdom at all. It mentions people being saved who are added to the church, which in context was in Jerusalem.

Acts 5:11 So great fear came upon all the church and upon all who heard these things.

It does not mention the kingdom at all. It references the church, in context in Jerusalem.

Acts 8:1 At that time a great persecution arose against the church which was at Jerusalem; and they were all scattered throughout the regions of Judea and Samaria, except the apostles.

It does not mention the kingdom at all. The church referenced were those in Jerusalem who then were scattered to Judea and Samaria except the apostles.

Acts 11:2 And when Peter came up to Jerusalem, those of the circumcision contended with him,

It does not mention the kingdom at all. It does not mention the church. I think you may have meant 22?

22 Then news of these things came to the ears of the church in Jerusalem, and they sent out Barnabas to go as far as Antioch.

It does not mention the kingdom at all. It mentions the church in Jerusalem.

Acts 12:5 Peter was therefore kept in prison, but constant prayer was offered to God for him by the church.

It does not mention the kingdom at all. It mentions the church primarily in Jerusalem, but those in other areas may have been praying for him as well.

1 Corinthians 12:28 And God has appointed these in the church: first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, varieties of tongues.

It does not mention the kingdom at all. Whereas in other texts the church often referred to a local group, this appears to limit it to those in the body, who are given gifts and so would be true believers.

So to summarize, your texts provided to show that the "children of the kingdom" are equivalent to "God's Church" never mention the kingdom at all.

And they have a mix of references to local churches and things that describe true believers in the body of Christ.

That is really as clear as you can make it? That is not clear at all. You can't provide texts to show that two things are equivalent, and then not include one of the things at all in texts.

But let's run with your definitions anyway. So the church of Christ is

a. local churches, all professed believers.
+
b. True believers

So the church based on this would be

All true believers in Christ, plus those who profess to be Christians in the local church.

So then the "children of the kingdom" would be all true believers in Christ, plus those who profess to be Christians in the local church.

So then, who are the sons of the evil one then? The ones outside the visible church, who are not true believers, and have not professed Christ?


By the way, I am only aware of one other text that uses the phrase "sons of the kingdom", and I think there may be a reason you didn't quote it.

Matthew 8:5 Now when Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to Him, pleading with Him, 6 saying, “Lord, my servant is lying at home paralyzed, dreadfully tormented.”7 And Jesus said to him, “I will come and heal him.” 8 The centurion answered and said, “Lord, I am not worthy that You should come under my roof. But only speak a word, and my servant will be healed. 9 For I also am a man under authority, having soldiers under me. And I say to this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and to another, ‘Come,’ and he comes; and to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.” 10 When Jesus heard it, He marveled, and said to those who followed, “Assuredly, I say to you, I have not found such great faith, not even in Israel! 11 And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” 13 Then Jesus said to the centurion, “Go your way; and as you have believed, so let it be done for you.” And his servant was healed that same hour.

Here some who were sons of the kingdom rejected their King, and were cast into outer darkness.

There are a lot of texts that mention the kingdom, but you mentioned none of them when discussing how the "children of the kingdom" are the same as the "church of God."

In the parable of the tares in Matthew 13 the good seed, the sons of the kingdom, the wheat, the righteous shining in the kingdom of their Father are all the same. So in that parable it is referring only to those who actually do wind up in the kingdom.

In Jesus' statement of Matthew 8 it is speaking of those who should have been in the kingdom, but did not accept their king.

So just as the term "church" can be used in different ways, so can the phrase "the sons of the kingdom". But they relate to the kingdom. And the context tells us who they are.

In Matthew 13 They are the ones planted by Jesus. They are in the world, next to the tares, the sons of the evil one. And once the tares are removed from the world by burning the wheat are in the barn. They are the righteous, shining in the kingdom of their Father.

 

[tall73]

@BobRyan

When you get a chance, and if you are willing, I was also waiting on the earlier question to continue our law discussion. Can you please clarify how you understand this part?

15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

Do you take the "accusing or else excusing" them to mean that some who have the law written on their hearts will be lost (accusing), or something else?