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Is the Seventh Day Adventist Church orthodox

tall73

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No. I added scripture showing that the wheat and tares grow together side by side and are not grown separately from the wheat.

Which I have agreed with over and over. They are both in the field, side by side, in the world.

The parable is a description of that which pertains to the kingdom of God, His work of salvation of men;

The kingdom of God is..........a kingdom. He is the King. It is not just the salvation of men. It is the kingdom of the King which we may enter into.

And you just now added Ellen White's words to your explanation.

and this work is accomplished through the church.

Added to the text again.

True, the Holy Spirit has gone out into all the world; everywhere it is moving upon the hearts of men;

Added Ellen White again.


but it is in the church that we are to grow and ripen for the harvest of God.

Added to the text again from Ellen White. I thought you didn't like that?

Tell me how can gathering the tares result in uprooting the wheat (God's people) if there is no application to the church here and the parables connection to the Church in the world in Matthew 7:21-23; 2 Peter 2:1-3; Acts of the Apostles 20:29-30 ?

Because they are in the same field. Jesus said the field is the world.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Tell me how can gathering the tares result in uprooting the wheat (God's people) if there is no application to the church here and the parables connection to the Church in the world in Matthew 7:21-23; 2 Peter 2:1-3; Acts of the Apostles 20:29-30 ?
Your response...
Because they are in the same field. Jesus said the field is the world.
How would that be? This does not answer my question to you if the parable does not have application to the children of the kingdom (God's Church) who are a part of God's kingdom in the world.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Added to the text again.
I respectfully disagree. As shown already the scripture application of Matthew 13:24-30; 37-43 is to the good seed which represents the "children of the kingdom" (the Church) who the enemy sows the tares into. They are growing side by side with the tares (children of the devil) until the end of the world (second coming).

.................

I am not one for commentaries for rarely do the commentators agree among themselves, but for what it's worth there are others that agree with the scripture view presented here that the application from Matthew 13:24-30; 37-43 is to the church that is in the world.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
The Son of man shall send forth his angels,.... Meaning himself, whose ministers the angels are; who wait upon him, and are at his beck and command; even the thousand thousands that minister unto him; these will be sent forth by his orders, into the several parts of the world, where he has any churches, or an interest, and they shall gather out of his kingdom: the Gospel church, over which Christ is king, where he rules and governs in the hearts of his people; and who are cheerfully and willingly obedient to his laws, under the influence of his Spirit and grace: but all who are in the visible Gospel church state, are not such; some are wicked and rebellious, and though they are suffered to continue, yet not always; for if not removed by censures and excommunications, they will be at last by angels; who will separate them from the saints: even all things that offend; who are scandals to Christ, his church, and Gospel, by their wicked principles, or infamous practices; and who give offense, not only to God, and his righteous law, but lay stumbling blocks in the way of the children of God, and are the authors of divisions and offenses among them: and them that do iniquity; that do nothing else but iniquity; and who, though they profess to be religious persons, are secretly, or openly, workers of iniquity; and are even doing iniquity, in and whilst they are professing religion.

..............

I believe what is written in the bible and is supported by COL, that the parable is a description of that which pertains to the kingdom of God in the world, His work of salvation for men; and this work is accomplished through the church. It is true, the Holy Spirit has gone out into all the world; everywhere it is moving upon the hearts of men; but it is in the church that we are to grow and ripen for the harvest of God.

SOME QUESTIONS FOR CONSIDERATION

Q1
. Tell me how can gathering the tares result in uprooting the wheat (God's people) if there is no application to the church that is in the world here and the parables connection to the Church that is in the world as shown in Matthew 7:21-23; 2 Peter 2:1-3; Acts of the Apostles 20:29-30 ?

Q2 Perhaps you can tell us from the scriptures why you believe that Matthew 13:24-30; 37-43 cannot have application to the Church that is in the world and only has application to those who are outside of the Church that is in the world?

These questions may help the discussion.
 
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BobRyan

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Now, you say I am to understand it as they can't tell them apart, but give no evidence.

In the parable the angels separate tares from wheat with 100% accuracy and without the loss of any of the wheat. But the servants (for a reason not mentioned in the parable) can't do that without losing wheat as the parable states. It does not tell us why - but we do know that church leaders do not have 100% accuracy in attempting to distinguish between them and that close ties do exist between wheat and tares in the church. We can choose to apply that or suppose something else as the cause.

You say I am supposed to accept the servants as church leaders. but the church leaders would already be part of the good crops.

I have updated the post on definition of terms to add all the ones that I think we are dealing with so far.

...
2. As with a lot of discussions - 90% depends on agreeing on a set of terms and what they mean at the outset. I did not think to do that earlier so am taking a stab at it here.

The World: All the tares, all the wheat no matter if they are in or outside of a visible church.

The Field: - as the World has the church of Christ in it because it has all the tares and all the wheat.

His (Christ's) Kingdom: has tares in it not just wheat - - according to vs 41 of Matt 13 - so it is the visible form of Christ's Church since that is the only option that has tares in it.

Matt 13:41 The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,​

The Kingdom of Heaven: and "His" Christ's Kingdom are the same thing in my POV - but this may be where we differ.

The sons of the kingdom: In the parable they are "in the world" and they are just the good seed that God sowed - not the tares.

The Visible Church of Christ: What you are calling a local congregation. Having both wheat and tares

The invisible church of Christ: That part of the Church of Christ that has no connection with any visible church. (hence - invisible) Having only wheat.

The Universal Church: Two ways to define it.
A. Both the Visible church of Christ and the Invisible Church of Christ - So then it has both wheat and tares due to the Visible church of Christ - and has the wheat of the invisible church of Christ
B. Only the wheat in the visible church of Christ and in the world.

Servants of the owner:
are those leaders in the church that have the ability to observe wheat and tares (even if not a 100% accurate view of wheat and tares) and could try to remove tares if they so choose.

By contrast - "Angels" at the end of the world - remove tares with 100% accuracy and no loss of wheat.

Given the definitions above.

It is not too difficult to see that the Visible church of Christ is in the world - because by definition the world includes ALL the wheat and ALL the tares. The visible church of Christ is by definition a subset of it.




Church leaders are not all wheat - but even if they were - our experience is not that they have infallible insight as to what is wheat and what is tares in the church and our experience is even if they did know that with 100% accuracy the tares are entangled with the wheat in a church setting.

How many things am I to "understand" with no warrant other than COL statement?

I only quote Matt 13 in my set of definitions and so you are free to provide and alternate definition of a term as you see fit. I suspect it is that point where our differences would show most clearly.


I did not deny the visible church of Christ is in the world. But it is not mentioned in the parable.

I agree that the term is not mentioned - but it does use "Christ's Kingdom" which has both wheat and tares in it - so in my definition list I make that note between the parables "Christ's Kingdom" and the "visible church of Christ".
 
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BobRyan

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I have a question about the term "universal Church" in your response -- I gave two options

The Universal Church: Two ways to define it.
A. Both the Visible church of Christ and the Invisible Church of Christ - So then it has both wheat and tares due to the Visible church of Christ - and has the wheat of the invisible church of Christ
B. Only the wheat in the visible church of Christ and in the world.

And you choose option B

I prefer B, all the wheat, which is what is left. They then inherit the kingdom.
.

As you noted in other responses - this is another term not mentioned in the chapter but helps clarify where we may differ on at least one point.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

In terms of practical application that means that I can visit a Baptist church or Bible study and have fellowship because that denomination is part of the Church Universal - and I don't have to worry about needing 100% accuracy in detecting a tare vs wheat to attend or to assume fellowship as brothers and sisters in Christ.
 
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BobRyan

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Did you read post 598?

Ok I have now read it - and this is my response to 598

Jesus told many parables that described aspects of the kingdom. And they seem to include elements which cannot be just the universal church (existence of tares). Nor can it really be describing just the local churches. It is not just from the local churches that the wicked are removed and the saved are gathered. Moreover, the gospel of the kingdom went to many hearts (soils), not just those in the churches. And it will go to all nations before the end:

In the definition list I point to the visible church of Christ having both wheat and tares - and this is what the parable focuses on until the very end where it is all the world divided into wheat and tares and tares removed with 100% accuracy.

The invisible church of Christ could only have wheat in it - if it is defined as not being the visible church and only includes the wheat in the otherwise lost world.

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

The field is the world, which is part of Christ's kingdom.

I think you already agreed that the world has all the wheat and all the tares. This means that "Christ's Kingdom" is a subset of the term "world" by definition. So then "the World" could not be a subset of Christ's Kingdom on Earth.

It is the kingdom of heaven. And heaven rules over all, even over those who don't recognize it, but will soon when every knee bows

In the parable the "Kingdom of heaven" is like a land owner that only sows wheat in the field but someone else sows tares in it. It is not clear that the term "Kingdom of heaven" is not encompassing that entire scenario because as you point out Heaven overrules over all of it not just part of it. The conditions and boundaries are set by the rules of the "Kingdom of heaven" and even the devil has to abide by the limits God sets. This is why Christ said to Peter that Satan desired to sift him as wheat - but Christ prayed that Peter's faith would not fail.

It is like saying "the kingdom of heaven has setup a chess tournament and created the boards, the pieces, and the rules", then describing how it plays out.

. So after the second coming at the harvest the sons of the kingdom enter the kingdom. They are not the kingdom, but they enter it. They inherit it. The wicked will not inherit it.

Agreed but that is like saying "at the end of the tournament only one will win and that will be this guy with the white hat". It is still all within the boundary/limits set by the Kingdom of Heaven.

But until that time sin contaminates the kingdom, and is destined for judgment.

Agreed and in order to do that - has to be in "in it". A contaminate that is isolated into its own sealed container does not contaminate anything.

That is why I mentioned the Lord's prayer--Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth, as it is in heaven. The kingdom is already here. But on earth some resist until the harvest, and the judgment.

The harvest, the judgment, the duration of the probationary time, the rules and limits - it is all set and managed by the Kingdom of Heaven and as you note it creates a future where God rules on Earth and there is no rebellion at all.

Therefore it is not the church that is the kingdom. Rather the saints ENTER the kingdom that was prepared for them:

We agree that the saints enter the kingdom of heaven (as in actually going literally to heaven) at the second coming - the question we are resolving is the various descriptions of "Christ's Kingdom" in Matt 13 before the second coming and if that is in fact "the church of Christ" or not.

His (Christ's) Kingdom: has tares in it not just wheat - - according to vs 41 of Matt 13

They are said in the chapter - to remove the bad element from Christ's kingdom.

41 The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,

That is the detail that shows Christ's kingdom (Christ's church) as having both wheat and tares until a specific time in the future where they take the tares out.

I think the larger issue is you equate the church in the world with the kingdom, and they are not the same in my view.

Matt 13:41 appears to show that: "Christ's Kingdom" in the world = "His Kingdom" that has stumbling blocks in it.

Which is the point as I think you are saying, where we appear to differ.
 
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tall73

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Ok I have now read it - and this is my response to 598



In the definition list I point to the visible church of Christ having both wheat and tares - and this is what the parable focuses on until the very end where it is all the world divided into wheat and tares and tares removed with 100% accuracy.

The invisible church of Christ could only have wheat in it - if it is defined as not being the visible church and only includes the wheat in the otherwise lost world.

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.



I think you already agreed that the world has all the wheat and all the tares. This means that "Christ's Kingdom" is a subset of the term "world" by definition. So then "the World" could not be a subset of Christ's Kingdom on Earth.



In the parable the "Kingdom of heaven" is like a land owner that only sows wheat in the field but someone else sows tares in it. It is not clear that the term "Kingdom of heaven" is not encompassing that entire scenario because as you point out Heaven overrules over all of it not just part of it. The conditions and boundaries are set by the rules of the "Kingdom of heaven" and even the devil has to abide by the limits God sets. This is why Christ said to Peter that Satan desired to sift him as wheat - but Christ prayed that Peter's faith would not fail.

It is like saying "the kingdom of heaven has setup a chess tournament and created the boards, the pieces, and the rules", then describing how it plays out.



Agreed but that is like saying "at the end of the tournament only one will win and that will be this guy with the white hat". It is still all within the boundary/limits wet by the Kingdom of Heaven.



Agreed and in order to do that - has to be in "in it". A contaminate that is isolated into its own sealed container does not contaminate anything.



The harvest, the judgment, the duration of the probationary time, the rules and limits - it is all set and managed by the Kingdom of Heaven and as you note it creates a future where God rules on Earth and there is no rebellion at all.



We agree that the saints enter the kingdom of heaven (as in actually going literally to heaven) at the second coming - the question we are resolving is the various descriptions of "Christ's Kingdom" in Matt 13 before the second coming and if that is in fact "the church of Christ" or not.

His (Christ's) Kingdom: has tares in it not just wheat - - according to vs 41 of Matt 13

They are said in the chapter - to remove the bad element from Christ's kingdom.

41 The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,

That is the detail that shows Christ's kingdom (Christ's church) as having both wheat and tares until a specific time in the future where they take the tares out.



Matt 13:41 appears to show that: "Christ's Kingdom" in the world = "His Kingdom" that has stumbling blocks in it.

Which is the point as I think you are saying, where we appear to differ.

Thank you Bob. I will try to get to it soon, but cannot at the moment. I think these clarifications are good and give us some further things to discuss.
 
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Freth

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NOTE: I'm posting this here for reference only, not to engage in further debate.

A Critical Lexicon and Concordance to the English and Greek New Testament, E. W. Bullinger (1908), page 433

[There are three variations in Greek in the New Testament for the word kingdom:]

a. the kingdom of God
the kingdom of God, the sphere of God's rule, as being then present among the Jews in the person of Christ (Luke 11:20, Luke 17:21).

Then
, the sphere of Christ's workings
Now, the sphere of the Holy Ghost's workings (Romans 14:17, 1 Corinthians 4:20).​
b. the kingdom of the heavens
the kingdom of the heavens, as in being the development of God's purpose. The kingdom to be introduced by the Messiah. The time when God's will shall be "done on earth as it is in heaven." Then, it was at hand; now it is in abeyance (Luke 19:12-15).​
c. the kingdom of the Father
the kingdom of the Father. This seems to be for the heavenly people, while "the kingdom of the Son of Man" is for the earthly (Daniel 7:13-14, Matthew 15:31-46, Luke 21:36), and the two together form the heavenly and earthly aspect of the "world kingdom of the Lord and of His Christ," (Revelation 11:15). The one the sphere of hte Father's glory, the other of the Son's rule. Will both cease to change when He "delivers up the kingdom to God, even the Father"? (1 Corinthians 15:24)​

In Matthew 13, all verses except 43 are listed as having the meaning of (b). Verse 43 has the meaning of (c).

---

Strong's 932, my physical copy simply says, "kingdom".

The Blue Letter Bible Strong's says this:

The KJV translates Strong's G932 in the following manner: kingdom (of God) (71x), kingdom (of heaven) (32x), kingdom (general or evil) (20x), (Thy or Thine) kingdom (6x), His kingdom (6x), the kingdom (5x), (My) kingdom (4x), miscellaneous (18x).
  1. royal power, kingship, dominion, rule
    1. not to be confused with an actual kingdom but rather the right or authority to rule over a kingdom
    2. of the royal power of Jesus as the triumphant Messiah
    3. of the royal power and dignity conferred on Christians in the Messiah's kingdom
  2. a kingdom, the territory subject to the rule of a king
  3. used in the N.T. to refer to the reign of the Messiah
βασιλεία basileía, bas-il-i'-ah; from G935; properly, royalty, i.e. (abstractly) rule, or (concretely) a realm (literally or figuratively):—kingdom, + reign.

STRONGS NT 932: βασιλεία
βασιλεία, -ας, ἡ, (from βασιλεύω; to be distinguished from βασίλεια a queen; cf. ἱερεία priesthood from ἱερεύω, and ἱέρεια a priestess from ἱερεύς), [from Herodotus down];
1. royal power, kingship, dominion, rule: Luke 1:33; Luke 19:12, 15; Luke 22:29; John 18:36; Acts 1:6; Hebrews 1:8; 1 Corinthians 15:24; Revelation 17:12; of the royal power of Jesus as the triumphant Messiah, in the phrase ἔρχεσθαι ἐν τῇ βασαὐτοῦ, i. e. to come in his kingship, clothed with this power: Matthew 16:28; Luke 23:42 [εἰς τὴν β. L marginal reading Tr marginal reading WH text]; of the royal power and dignity conferred on Christians in the Messiah's kingdom: Revelation 1:6
 
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tall73

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In the parable the angels separate tares from wheat with 100% accuracy and without the loss of any of the wheat. But the servants (for a reason not mentioned in the parable) can't do that without losing wheat as the parable states. It does not tell us why - but we do know that church leaders do not have 100% accuracy in attempting to distinguish between them and that close ties do exist between wheat and tares in the church. We can choose to apply that or suppose something else as the cause.

There are many reasons not to apply that.

a. The church leaders are already in the wheat or tare camp. The servants are separate. And we see no tares and wheat talking in the parable, but we do see the servants.

b. As noted previously, the servants give no indication they cannot tell the tares from the wheat. In fact, they see the problem of the tares in the first place:

26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’

c. The reason not to uproot them is stated.

28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them.

They could uproot the wheat when trying to uproot the tares. The reason they can do it later is that it is now the time of the harvest, and both of them are uprooted because it is the harvest.


30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”

d. The terminology of servants and children of the kingdom is speaking of the roles in a household or, in this case, a kingdom. The sons of the kingdom are heirs of the kingdom, whereas the servants are labeled as servants.


Church leaders are not all wheat - but even if they were - our experience is not that they have infallible insight as to what is wheat and what is tares in the church and our experience is even if they did know that with 100% accuracy the tares are entangled with the wheat in a church setting.

The tares and wheat are entangled in the world setting which is what Christ identifies as the field. But moreover, there is not stated problem recognizing one from the other. So even though some church leaders may not be saved, yet the job being discussed is not discerning, but removing. Also, the tares and wheat are identified, and are in the ground not pulling up anything. They are heirs in the kingdom, rather than servants.

I only quote Matt 13 in my set of definitions and so you are free to provide and alternate definition of a term as you see fit. I suspect it is that point where our differences would show most clearly.

Thank you for spelling out the terminology. I will just put them in green for simplicity.

The World: All the tares, all the wheat no matter if they are in or outside of a visible church.


Yes, the world is the world. In the parable Christ identifies the field as the world.

The Field: - as the World has the church of Christ in it because it has all the tares and all the wheat.

The field is identified as the world. The church is not mentioned in the parable at all, so I am not sure how that is from the text of the parable or the explanation in Matthew 13.


Now we agree, the church is in the world. However, referencing a foreign concept isn't going to help you identify what it is saying.

His (Christ's) Kingdom: has tares in it not just wheat - - according to vs 41 of Matt 13 - so it is the visible form of Christ's Church since that is the only option that has tares in it.

This starts with a false premise. The church is not mentioned so you didn't get this from the text of the parable.


But moreover, you have actually posited an entirely new definition, without labeling it as such. You are equating the kingdom with the church. But that is not only not stated, but misses the point of a kingdom. The kingdom has a King, has a throne (in heaven), is the kingdom of heaven, the kingdom of the Father and of His Christ. A kingdom has territory, which in this case is heaven, earth and all created things, as God is over them all.



Matt 13:41 The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,

Yes, His kingdom includes the field, which is the earth. That is where the totality of tares and totality of wheat live side by side. The tares, all sinners, the sons of the evil one are removed from the kingdom.


The Kingdom of Heaven: and "His" Christ's Kingdom are the same thing in my POV - but this may be where we differ.

They are the same thing. But neither of them is limited to earth, as should be apparent from the terms. The kingdom of heaven shows it is not contained to merely the earth. It is centered in heaven where God's throne is located, in the heavenly sanctuary, in heaven itself (Hebrews). It is the kingdom of heaven, of the Father and of the Son who reign over all things.


The sons of the kingdom: In the parable they are "in the world" and they are just the good seed that God sowed - not the tares.


Agreed! The sons of the kingdom are the ones who are welcomed to their inheritance and reign with God, shining in the kingdom of their father. And they are seen as all the believers in the field--world, throughout.

The Visible Church of Christ: What you are calling a local congregation. Having both wheat and tares

Yes, not mentioned.


The invisible church of Christ: That part of the Church of Christ that has no connection with any visible church. (hence - invisible) Having only wheat.

Yes, not mentioned


The Universal Church: Two ways to define it.
A. Both the Visible church of Christ and the Invisible Church of Christ - So then it has both wheat and tares due to the Visible church of Christ - and has the wheat of the invisible church of Christ
B. Only the wheat in the visible church of Christ and in the world.


B. All believers in all time, which in this case are identified as the sons of the kindom of their Father, which kingdom is not limited to earth, but includes it.

Servants of the owner: are those leaders in the church that have the ability to observe wheat and tares (even if not a 100% accurate view of wheat and tares) and could try to remove tares if they so choose.

Not at all stated like that in the parable. The sons of the kingdom/wheat are identified and do not speak of themselves in the third person in the parable.
The sons of the evil one/tares are identified in the parable explanation and do not speak, etc. The servants of a kingdom are just that--servants in a kingdom. The heirs in the kingdom, the sons, are not the servants. They inherit the kingdom with their Father, as it is their Father's kingdom.

There is no indication in the parable of difficulty identifying the wheat or the tares, and the servants are the first to notice.


By contrast - "Angels" at the end of the world - remove tares with 100% accuracy and no loss of wheat.

Yes, because at the harvest there is no longer a danger as all are uprooted--it is a harvest.

Given the definitions above.

It is not too difficult to see that the Visible church of Christ is in the world - because by definition the world includes ALL the wheat and ALL the tares. The visible church of Christ is by definition a subset of it.

Given what is actually mentioned in the parable it is not difficult to see the "visible church of Christ", or the "church" is not mentioned in the first place.

The world is the field, and is certainly mentioned. And the sons of the kingdom of the Father are in the world, next to the sons of the evil one, until the sons of the evil one are removed. Then the sons of the kingdom are shining in the kingdom of their Father, which is certainly not limited to earth, but does include it.


I agree that the term is not mentioned - but it does use "Christ's Kingdom" which has both wheat and tares in it - so in my definition list I make that note between the parables "Christ's Kingdom" and the "visible church of Christ".

Christ's kingdom is not limited to the visible church of Christ. The kingdom of the Father and the Son is all created things.

And the sons of the kingdom inherit the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world. It is described as entering the kingdom, inheriting the kingdom, receiving the kingdom, being preserved for the kingdom, being found worthy of the kingdom, etc.


Matthew 25:31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’

I Thessalonians 2:12 that you would walk worthy of God who calls you into His own kingdom and glory.

Hebrews 12: Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us have grace, by which we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear.

Listen, my beloved brethren: Has God not chosen the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?

2 Peter 1:11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Matthew 26:29 But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father’s kingdom.”

Mark 9:47: And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, rather than having two eyes, to be cast into hell fire

Mark 10:15 Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it.”

Luke 12:32 “Do not fear, little flock, for it is your Father’s good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

Luke 18:25 For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

Acts 14:22 strengthening the souls of the disciples, exhorting them to continue in the faith, and saying, “We must through many tribulations enter the kingdom of God.”

1 Corinthians 6:9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,

1 Corinthians 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.

Galatians 5:21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Ephesians 5:5 For this you know, that no fornicator, unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.

2 Thessalonians 1:5 which is manifest evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer

2 Timothy 4:18 And the Lord will deliver me from every evil work and preserve me for His heavenly kingdom. To Him be glory forever and ever. Amen!
 
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tall73

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NOTE: I'm posting this here for reference only, not to engage in further debate.

A Critical Lexicon and Concordance to the English and Greek New Testament, E. W. Bullinger (1908), page 433

[There are three variations in Greek in the New Testament for the word kingdom:]

a. the kingdom of God
the kingdom of God, the sphere of God's rule, as being then present among the Jews in the person of Christ (Luke 11:20, Luke 17:21).

Then
, the sphere of Christ's workings
Now, the sphere of the Holy Ghost's workings (Romans 14:17, 1 Corinthians 4:20).​
b. the kingdom of the heavens
the kingdom of the heavens, as in being the development of God's purpose. The kingdom to be introduced by the Messiah. The time when God's will shall be "done on earth as it is in heaven." Then, it was at hand; now it is in abeyance (Luke 19:12-15).​
c. the kingdom of the Father
the kingdom of the Father. This seems to be for the heavenly people, while "the kingdom of the Son of Man" is for the earthly (Daniel 7:13-14, Matthew 15:31-46, Luke 21:36), and the two together form the heavenly and earthly aspect of the "world kingdom of the Lord and of His Christ," (Revelation 11:15). The one the sphere of hte Father's glory, the other of the Son's rule. Will both cease to change when He "delivers up the kingdom to God, even the Father"? (1 Corinthians 15:24)​

In Matthew 13, all verses except 43 are listed as having the meaning of (b). Verse 43 has the meaning of (c).

The sons of the kingdom are the ones in the kingdom of their Father at the end.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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The sons of the kingdom are the ones in the kingdom of their father at the end.
Matthew 13:38 [38], The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one.

The good seed are the children of the kingdom in the world (the Church) before the harvest (the end of the world and the second coming) at which time the the separation of the wheat and the tares begin Matthew 13:24-30; 37-43; Matthew 7:21-23
 
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tall73

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I think you already agreed that the world has all the wheat and all the tares. This means that "Christ's Kingdom" is a subset of the term "world" by definition. So then "the World" could not be a subset of Christ's Kingdom on Earth.


Bob, the kingdom at the end is the Father's with of course the Son as well. That includes more than the earth.

But more than that, the sons of the kingdom are the ones in the kingdom of the father, which again is more than the earth.

The kingdom of heaven is a term used in many parables, which explain a number of aspects. However, I would say it might have something to do with heaven, and its King.

Now based on the definitions I think this represents our views, with mine in the yellow and yours in the purple:

upload_2021-3-23_18-41-36.png
 
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BobRyan

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BobRyan said:
In the parable the angels separate tares from wheat with 100% accuracy and without the loss of any of the wheat. (At the second coming)

But the servants (for a reason not mentioned in the parable) can't do that without losing wheat as the parable states.

It does not tell us why - but we do know that church leaders do not have 100% accuracy in attempting to distinguish between them and that close ties do exist between wheat and tares in the church. We can choose to apply that or suppose something else as the cause.


There are many reasons not to apply that.

a. The church leaders are already in the wheat or tare camp. The servants are separate.

Either way the servants (whoever they are) don't have the ability to separate out the tares without losing wheat.

So either this is information instructing human leaders of the church not to attempt it - because they will risk losing wheat - or it is instruction to non-human, non-angel servants not to do it... which I doubt.

b. As noted previously, the servants give no indication they cannot tell the tares from the wheat.

They clearly know that tares exist but nothing in the parable says they are 100% accurate in distinguishing one from the other in every case. We could assume it either way without knowing.

In fact, they see the problem of the tares in the first place:

26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared. 27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?’

When the harvest is produced, the grain produced - then the angels take out the tares.

37 And He said, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, 38 and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the weeds are the sons of the evil one; 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels. 40 So just as the weeds are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.

So this is not the harvest --

27 And the slaves of the landowner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have weeds?’ 28 And he said to them, ‘An enemy has done this!’ The slaves *said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?’ 29 But he *said, ‘No; while you are gathering up the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30 Allow both to grow together until the harvest;



c. The reason not to uproot them is stated.

28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ The servants said to him, ‘Do you want us then to go and gather them up?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them.

They could uproot the wheat when trying to uproot the tares. The reason they can do it later is that it is now the time of the harvest, and both of them are uprooted because it is the harvest.


They first burn the tares.

vs 39 ... and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels. 40 So just as the weeds are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.

30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”



d. The terminology of servants and children of the kingdom is speaking of the roles in a household or, in this case, a kingdom. The sons of the kingdom are heirs of the kingdom, whereas the servants are labeled as servants.

Luke 12 labels all who are waiting for the 2nd coming as "servants"
42 And the Lord said, “Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his master will make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of food in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. 44 Truly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all that he has. 45 But if that servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk, 46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
 
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BobRyan

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Now based on the definitions I think this represents our views, with mine in the yellow and yours in the purple:

View attachment 296745

agreed - but in that case you are distinguishing non-human beings from humans

The World field - in my diagram would have all wheat and all tares inside that circle. There is no "harvest" of non-humans in the parable so they are not in scope. But in the harvest both wheat and tares are apparent.
 
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tall73

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Matthew 13:36 [38], The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one.

The good seed are the children of the kingdom in the world (the Church) before the harvest (the end of the world and the second coming) at which time the the separation of the wheat and the tares begin Matthew 13:24-30; 37-43; Matthew 7:21-23


37 He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. 40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!


The good seeds are the sons of the kingdom. They are also the righteous in the Father's kingdom after the harvest, because He harvests the wheat.

The tares are the sons of the evil one. They are removed from the kingdom.

So the sons of the kingdom, are the ones in the kingdom with the Father.

The wheat are all the righteous throughout time that have been in the field, which is the world. And they are in the kingdom, as the sons of the kingdom, at the end, shining in the kingdom of their Father.

The sons of the evil one are the ones removed from the kingdom of the Father and destroyed. The tares are all the sons of the evil one throughout time from the field which is the world.

The righteous and the wicked live in the world together.
At the harvest:

The wicked/tares/sons of the evil one are removed.

The good seed.wheat/sons of the kingdom/righteous shine in their Father's kingdom.
 
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tall73

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agreed - but in that case you are distinguishing non-human beings from humans

The World field - in my diagram would have all wheat and all tares inside that circle. There is no "harvest" of non-humans in the parable so they are not in scope. But in the harvest both wheat and tares are apparent.

I don't understand what you mean by non-humans.

In yours the big circle is the world, and the little is the church. There are some wheat and tares in the world, but not in the church, and some in the church.

I guess what you mean is I don't show the after the harvest scene? Where do you see the kingdom being after the harvest?
 
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LoveGodsWord

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37 He answered and said to them: “He who sows the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. 39 The enemy who sowed them is the devil, the harvest is the end of the age, and the reapers are the angels. 40 Therefore as the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of this age. 41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!

The good seeds are the sons of the kingdom. They are also the righteous in the Father's kingdom after the harvest, because He harvests the wheat.

The tares are the sons of the evil one. They are removed from the kingdom.

So the sons of the kingdom, are the ones in the kingdom with the Father.

The wheat are all the righteous throughout time that have been in the field, which is the world. And they are in the kingdom, as the sons of the kingdom, at the end, shining in the kingdom of their Father.

The sons of the evil one are the ones removed from the kingdom of the Father and destroyed. The tares are all the sons of the evil one throughout time from the field which is the world.

The righteous and the wicked live in the world together.
At the harvest:

The wicked/tares/sons of the evil one are removed.

The good seed.wheat/sons of the kingdom/righteous shine in their Father's kingdom.

No, your trying to argue that that the children of the kingdom are not God's Church in the world before the harvest when they are according to the scriptures. This is where your mistake is.

Matthew 13:38 [38], The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one.

Mathew 13:26-30, [26] But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.[27], So the servants of the householder came and said to him, Sir, did not you sow good seed in your field? from where then has it tares? [28], He said to them, An enemy has done this. The servants said to him, Will you then that we go and gather them up? [29], But he said, No; lest while you gather up the tares, you root up also the wheat with them. [30], Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather you together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

The good seed are the children of the kingdom in the world (the Church) before the harvest (the end of the world and the second coming) at which time the separation of the wheat and the tares begin Matthew 13:24-30; 37-43; Matthew 7:21-23

Hope this is helpful
 
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tall73

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Either way the servants (whoever they are) don't have the ability to separate out the tares without losing wheat.

So either this is information instructing human leaders of the church not to attempt it - because they will risk losing wheat - or it is instruction to non-human, non-angel servants not to do it... which I doubt.

You have an inconsistency here. You state that the leaders in the church could be indicated, even though they are referenced as part of the tares or wheat.

But then you say that the servants cannot be angels because they are listed as harvesters. In this case the servants don't even have a separate explanation. So w don't know what they are supposed to be. But the wheat and tares are explained, so should be ruled out as well.

But more importantly, the sons of the kingdom are being viewed in the lens of the story of the parable. It is about a kingdom. A kingdom may have servants and sons, but they servants and sons in a kingdom are not the same.

In fact, the servants appear to not be in the field or connected to it, but outside of it, discussing it, and ready to tend it but are refused. The field is the world. They are outside of the world. Now whether you take this as a different group of unidentified angels. Or whether you take this as other intelligent beings the Lord has created, or however you take it, they are commenting about the wheat and tares, and offering to take action against them, so they are not part of the wheat or the tares. And they are not sons of the kingdom but servants.

The ones in the field, the world, are divided into two groups:

sons of the kingdom/good seed/wheat/righteous shining in the kingdom of their Father

vs.

sons of the evil one, tares/those that practice lawlessness who are removed from the kingdom.

And note, the identification doesn't change through the whole thing. The wheat growing is still the wheat brought into the barns.

The tares growing are still the tares burned.

It is the same scope throughout. it is talking about all the righteous and all the wicked, who live side by side in the world. But at the end the wicked are removed, the righteous are in the kingdom of their Father.

They clearly know that tares exist but nothing in the parable says they are 100% accurate in distinguishing one from the other in every case. We could assume it either way without knowing.

That is not accurate. It says they know the tares and the wheat. They are told to leave them both. You can't say they don't know them if they identify them. And you can't say they are not 100 percent certain if none of the text says that.

But more than that the same wheat is in the barn at the end.

The same tares are burned in the end.

They are the same throughout the entire parable.

When the harvest is produced, the grain produced - then the angels take out the tares.

37 And He said, “The one who sows the good seed is the Son of Man, 38 and the field is the world; and as for the good seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; and the weeds are the sons of the evil one; 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the devil, and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels. 40 So just as the weeds are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.

So this is not the harvest --

27 And the slaves of the landowner came and said to him, ‘Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have weeds?’ 28 And he said to them, ‘An enemy has done this!’ The slaves *said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?’ 29 But he *said, ‘No; while you are gathering up the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30 Allow both to grow together until the harvest;

Agreed, not the harvest. But also no confusion about which is which.

The wheat in the beginning are the wheat at the end.

The tares in the beginning are the tares at the end. It is looking at the totality.

They first burn the tares.

vs 39 ... and the harvest is the end of the age; and the reapers are angels. 40 So just as the weeds are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.

30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, “First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn.”

Yes, wheat planted, wheat harvested at the end.

Tares sowed by the evil one, tares burned at the end.

The whole time they are in the same field--the world.

Luke 12 labels all who are waiting for the 2nd coming as "servants"
42 And the Lord said, “Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his master will make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of food in due season? 43 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. 44 Truly, I say to you that he will make him ruler over all that he has. 45 But if that servant says in his heart, ‘My master is delaying his coming,’ and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk, 46 the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.


Agreed, it is its own story, with its own characters. And the context there is a household and all those waiting for the King are servants. But in the parable of the wheat we have a different story with different characters. The sons of the kingdom are identified as the ones inheriting the kingdom in this parable, they are the good seed/wheat/sons of the kingdom/righteous on the kingdom of their Father.
 
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