When does any particular sin(s) become backsliding, apostasy, or "falling away?"

[Bible Highlighter]

Will some sins get you there faster than others? If so, which ones? How many times do you sin, confess, sin, confess, sin, confess, etc., before you wake up and realize you're simply nothing more than a hypocrite/apostate?

I think the difference is two things. One, a person has to have a proper view of sin and salvation. Most believers today think they can sin and still be saved on some level, and their confession is merely just what they would be naturally do but they really don't believe confessing sin is actually leading them to be forgiven of sin (in regards to salvation). Two, those who do confess sin to be forgiven of sin for real (with the view that it saves them), must continue to run the race and battle against mortal sin with the goal of overcoming it. If they don't overcome mortal sin in this life, they are not going to make it. Thus, narrow is the way.

But we should also speak to others in love, and respect.
Too much vinegar can drive a person away.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I think you are over thinking it. It is an if/then statement. If A, then B. If you walk in the light (believe Christ died for your sins) you WILL have fellowship with others who believe the same. It's really that simple - to me.

I am not overthinking anything, friend. I am only believing plainly what 1 John 1:7 says. The word “IF” is a conditional statement.

For example: Rick can say to Bob,
“If I come over your house tomorrow, I will fix your bike.” ​

So the condition is only if Rick comes over Bob's house will he then fix his bike. Many believers today simply do not like what 1 John 1:7 says and so they either ignore it, or they attempt to re-write what it says. They have been repeatedly taught over and over and over and over again by their Pastor that one is to only believe in Jesus and you have the blood covering you for all time. But that is not what 1 John 1:7 teaches.

 

[Mr. M]

Concerning of the "Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit" [Matthew 12:31-32],
Jesus said,
“Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men,

but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men.​

Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him;

but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit,
it will not be forgiven him,
either in this age or in the age to come."​

From the [three?] verses regarding the Mark of the Beast (in Revelation),
it appears that those who receive it will be beyond repentance, as well.

Hebrews 3:7 Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says: Today, if you will hear His voice,
8 Do not harden your hearts as in the provocation,
In the day of trial in the wilderness,

Psalm 78:
17 And they sinned yet more against him by provoking the most High in the wilderness.
18 And they tempted God in their heart by asking meat for their lust.
19 Yea, they spake against God; they said, Can God furnish a table in the wilderness?
20 Behold, he smote the rock, that the waters gushed out, and the streams overflowed;
can he give bread also? can he provide flesh for his people?
21 Therefore the Lord heard this, and was wroth: so a fire was kindled against Jacob, and
anger also came up against Israel;
22 Because they believed not in God, and trusted not in his salvation.

Deuteronomy 15:7 If there is among you a poor man of your brethren, within any of the gates
in your land which the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not harden your heart nor shut your
hand from your poor brother.

James 2:15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food,
16 and one of you says to them, Depart in peace, be warmed and filled, but you do not give
them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?

Conclusion:when you cut yourself off from agapao, the charity of the Lord, by hardening
your heart toward the needs of others, you are backslidden, not trusting in the Lord's
Salvation, and effectively denying His provision. This is the provocation in the wilderness,
to deny His ability to "furnish a table in the wilderness." So called hard times are good times
for believer's to shine.

 

[Direct Driver]

I am not overthinking anything, friend. I am only believing plainly what 1 John 1:7 says. The word “IF” is a conditional statement.

For example: Rick can say to Bob,
“If I come over your house tomorrow, I will fix your bike.” ​

So the condition is only if Rick comes over Bob's house will he then fix his bike. Many believers today simply do not like what 1 John 1:7 says and so they either ignore it, or they attempt to re-write what it says. They have been repeated taught over and over and over and over again by their Pastor that one is to only believe in Jesus and you have the blood covering you for all time. But that is not what 1 John 1:7 teaches.

Yes. IF you believe, you WILL have fellowship.

It's why I say you can tell how much faith someone has in their brakes by how fast they drive.

Or, "IF you believe a chair will hold your weight, you WILL sit in it." That is an old Discipleship Dynamics analogy. And it works. If you are never sitting in the chair, even when you have need, you may not have the faith that it will hold your weight. i.e. faith without works is dead.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Perfectly? I'm sure if one could do so perfectly, then they could claim they are without sin.

Not all sins are the same. In Matthew 5:22 we learn that Jesus teaches us about sins that do not lead to death and a sin that does lead to death.

“But I say to you that everyone who continues to be angry with his brother
or harbors malice against him shall be guilty before the court;
and whoever speaks [contemptuously and insultingly] to his brother,
‘Raca (You empty-headed idiot)!’ shall be guilty before the
supreme court (Sanhedrin); and whoever says,
‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of the fiery hell.”
(Matthew 5:22) (AMP).​

The words in blue above are “sins not unto death” because they are the kind of sins that lead to punishment in earthly courts, but the words in red above is a “sin unto death” because it involves punishment in the afterlife in fiery hell.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yes. IF you believe, you WILL have fellowship.

It's why I say you can tell how much faith someone has in their brakes by how fast they drive.

Or, "IF you believe a chair will hold your weight, you WILL sit in it." That is an old Discipleship Dynamics analogy. And it works. If you are never sitting in the chair, even when you have need, you may not have the faith that it will hold your weight. i.e. faith without works is dead.

No. The verse does not say we will automatically walk in the light. It says IF we walk in the light. IF is a conditional statement. Walking in the light is defined as loving your brother according to the indirect wording used in 1 John 2:9-11. So we have to love our brother in order to have the blood of Jesus cleanse us from all sin. This truth is confirmed by also reading 1 John 3:10, and 1 John 3:15.

As for faith without works is dead: So you believe you need works of faith as a part of salvation?

 

[BBAS 64]

Good Day,

I see lots of refences to Hebrews 6... Thought I would share this thread. Premiere NT Greek Scholar DA Carson looks at Hebrews chapter 6

Hebrews 6 - DA Carson

In Him,

Bill

 

[spiritfilledjm]

Any time you sin, it's a backslide. However, with "backsliding" there is always repentance and seeking forgiveness. Per Hebrews 10:26-27, I do not believe it becomes "Apostasy" or "falling away" until one sins, knows it's a sin, agrees it's a sin, but has no desire to repent or seek forgiveness for it for reasons that are their own.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Hebrews 3:7 Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says: Today, if you will hear His voice,
8 Do not harden your hearts as in the provocation,
In the day of trial in the wilderness,

Psalm 78:
17 And they sinned yet more against him by provoking the most High in the wilderness.
18 And they tempted God in their heart by asking meat for their lust.
19 Yea, they spake against God; they said, Can God furnish a table in the wilderness?
20 Behold, he smote the rock, that the waters gushed out, and the streams overflowed;
can he give bread also? can he provide flesh for his people?
21 Therefore the Lord heard this, and was wroth: so a fire was kindled against Jacob, and
anger also came up against Israel;
22 Because they believed not in God, and trusted not in his salvation.

Deuteronomy 15:7 If there is among you a poor man of your brethren, within any of the gates
in your land which the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not harden your heart nor shut your
hand from your poor brother.

James 2:15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food,
16 and one of you says to them, Depart in peace, be warmed and filled, but you do not give
them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit?

Conclusion:when you cut yourself off from agapao, the charity of the Lord, by hardening
your heart toward the needs of others, you are backslidden, not trusting in the Lord's
Salvation, and effectively denying His provision. This is the provocation in the wilderness,
to deny His ability to "furnish a table in the wilderness." So called hard times are good times
for believer's to shine.

I believe Hebrews 3 is a warning to not sin so far as a point of no return. While backsliding in most cases is forgivable, I believe in the case with the Israelites, they took the wrong path to harden their hearts against God and kept continuing to harden their hearts (to a point of no return), and thus, they fell in the wilderness. Hebrews 6:4-6 is dealing clearly with apostasy of no return by rejecting Jesus as one's Savior. The author of Hebrews was warning those he was writing to in not going back to the old Jewish religion so as to avoid persecution for Christ. Hebrews 3 is merely a warning that set up the author's main point in Hebrews 6:4-6. For the point in Hebrews 3 is that sin can harden a person's heart to depart from the living God (i.e. to reject Jesus).

 

[Clare73]

We do not know. It may not even be the same "point of no return" for each person.

All that we can ascertain from Scripture is that when a person DOES reach that point, they will have no desire to repent and will be unfazed by the likelihood of going to Hell when they die. Those are both functions of the Holy Spirit Who will have left at that point. Hebrews 6:4-6 makes it clear that that condition does not apply to

• unbelievers,
• new believers or
• those with OCD;

but to mature believers who have made a deliberate, informed & protracted decision.

"For it is impossible for those who
were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and
have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and [have tasted] the powers of the age to come,
if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance,
since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God,
and put Him to an open shame." Hebrews 6:4-6 NKJV

It might be worth pointing out that Hebrews 6:4-6 is the third of five warnings addressed to some NT Hebrews who were considering a return to their OT religion, perhaps because of persecution by their friends, or threats of disinheritance by their families, or both, or some other reason; nevertheless, the writer is warning them that to do so is to reject Jesus Christ and the only sacrifice for sin, that they will therefore die with their sin unforgiven, and that in reality apostasy is crucifying Jesus all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace as had been done in Jerusalem.

Those who apostasize were never really saved, they are like those in the parable in Luke 8:13, "they receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root." They are not reborn, so "they believe for a while, but in time of testing (perhaps in rejection and disinheritance) they fall away."

For detailed explanation of the second warning of Heb 3:7-4:13, see my explanation in
post #1259, Removing the laws of God- what does it really mean?

 

[Mr. M]

Matthew 12:32 seems to be the "out" for Hebrews 6:4-6.

"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened,... if they fall away,
to renew them again to repentance,
since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame." Heb. 4, 6 NKJV

"Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him;..." Matt. 12:32a

(Was [the writer of Hebrews] using hyperbole here...?)

Hebrews 10:
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth,
there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will
devour the adversaries.
"the knowledge of the truth" is this "forgive, and you will be forgiven".
There are no sacrifices for sin.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Any time you sin, it's a backslide. However, with "backsliding" there is always repentance and seeking forgiveness. Per Hebrews 10:26-27, I do not believe it becomes "Apostasy" or "falling away" until one sins, knows it's a sin, agrees it's a sin, but has no desire to repent or seek forgiveness for it for reasons that are their own.

I believe there is always forgiveness for a believer as long as they don't reject Jesus Christ as their Savior (of which Hebrews 6:4-6 warns against) and as long as they do not speak bad words against the Holy Spirit (as a believer).

In Hebrews 6:4-6: I believe the author of Hebrews was warning Messianic Christians to not go back to the old Jewish religion so as to avoid persecution for Jesus Christ. This would in effect be a denial of Jesus if they were to do that. But willfully sinning can be forgiven if we turn back by confessing and forsaking such sins. But we are warned in Hebrews 3 that sin can harden the heart and thus as a result, it can make us depart from the Living God (i.e. It can make us to reject the Lord). Hebrews 10:26-27 is a warning to not go down that road of sin that can potentially lead to apostasy (i.e. a point of no return).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It might be worth pointing out that Hebrews 6:4-6 is the third of five warnings addressed to some NT Hebrews who were considering a return to their OT religion, perhaps because of persecution by their friends, or threats of disinheritance by their families, or both, or some other reason; nevertheless, the writer is warning them that to do so is to reject Jesus Christ and the only sacrifice for sin, that they will therefore die with their sin unforgiven, and that in reality apostasy is crucifying Jesus all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace as had been done in Jerusalem.

Those who apostasize were never really saved, they are like those in the parable in Luke 8:13, "they receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root." They are not reborn, so "they believe for a while, but in time of testing (perhaps in rejection and disinheritance) they fall away."

For the second warning of Heb 3:7-4:13, see my explanation in
post #1259, Removing the laws of God- what does it really mean?

No. This is not true that those who apostatize were never saved. Hebrews 3 is proof against this idea. It says that one can harden your heart by sin whereby you can depart from the living God. You cannot depart from Pittsburgh airport unless you were in Pittsburgh airport. The same is true with God. You cannot depart from the living GOD unless you abide in the living GOD.

You cannot fall away from something you never had.

 

[BBAS 64]

Good Day,

Martin Luther #1 of his 95:

1. When our Lord and Master Jesus Christ said, ``Repent'' (Mt 4:17), he willed the entire life of believers to be one of repentance.

and of course my sig:

God allows us to struggle with sin our whole lives to convince us until our dying breath of our desperate need of the gospel." -John Newton

In Him,

Bill

 

[Clare73]

2Co 5:9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. 11 Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men..

Sounds like we have work to do if we want to be accepted by the Lord.

The word used for "accepted" here is euarestos, which means "well pleasing."

"We labor that we may be well pleasing to him."

If we are born again, we are accepted of him.

 

[Direct Driver]

No. The verse does not say we will automatically walk in the light. It says IF we walk in the light. IF is a conditional statement. Walking in the light is defined as loving your brother according to the indirect wording used in 1 John 2:9-11. So we have to love our brother in order to have the blood of Jesus cleanse us from all sin. This truth is confirmed by also reading 1 John 3:10, and 1 John 3:15.

As for faith without works is dead: So you believe you need works of faith as a part of salvation?

It says IF you are doing X, THEN you will do Y. That is LITERALLY what it is saying.

So IF you walk in the light, you WILL love your brother.

It really can't be any simpler. The only question left is, what does "walking in the light" mean? I believe it means you are saved by the blood of Christ. By definition you are now walking in the light.

Therefore, you love your brother in the light. I honestly think you have it exactly backwards. I feel like you are suggesting that "if I love my brother, I'm walking in the light." You've got X and Y backwards.

 

[Clare73]

It is interesting how many personal testimonies there are that are in complete violation of that scripture in Hebrews. What's up with that?

Does it have to be either/or, can it not be both/and?

They never really abandoned in their heart, they only fell down, to be raised up again.

But there are those who do apostasize, rebel, just as the letter to those Hebrews warns.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

1 Corinthians 12:3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God
calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

Right, Christians can quench the Spirit and fall into a worldly lifestyle. They may even think they can sin and still be saved. Such a one does not have the Spirit of God and thus as a result, they can say that Jesus is accursed (Which is forgivable). For Jesus' audience is to believers and not unbelievers. So 1 Corinthians 12:3 is only referring to Spirit filled believers or believers who are abiding in the Holy Spirit. The prodigal son was not abiding in the Spirit when he was living it up with prostitutes. When the son came home and sought forgiveness with his father, the father said that his son was “dead,” and he is “alive AGAIN.” The Parable is speaking in spiritual terms.

 

[RDKirk]

@Sabertooth it says no repentance available for those who have fallen away. This is a tough one.

Hebrews 6:4-6 NIV
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

It says: "....to be brought back to repentance."

It tells us that this person had once been fully immersed in the Spirit but has subsequently turned away and rejected the Spirit and, in fact, recanted his original repentance. It tells us that one who has fully known the Spirit and then rejected the Spirit will not--and this is of his own accord--return to the Spirit.

 

[Mr. M]

what does "walking in the light" mean?

John 15:22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would have no sin, but now
they have no excuse for their sin.