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Is the Seventh Day Adventist Church orthodox

BobRyan

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When I was in high school (60s) Monterey Bay Academy we were told not to associate or debate other denominations.

anecdotal stories can be found in every denomination. When we look for what a denomination actually teaches we look at their statements of belief.

I too attended SDA schools - in my case it was all SDA schools until my last two years in college and I was never told anything like what you just said.

But if I had a group of students who were fairly new to the entire subject I might first suggest that they learn what we believe before trying to insert themselves into a debate just so they would reflect the position that we hold as accurately as possible.
 
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BobRyan

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BobRyan said:
The reason that the Sunday groups make those strong "all TEN commandments" statements (--including the claim that the Sabbath as God gave it was on the 7th day - Saturday) but are keeping Sunday instead - is because they claim that the Sabbath commandment was in some way edited after the cross to point to week-day-1. They all talk about a "change" at the cross for the Sabbath commandment. Many will admit that it was via tradition and that there is no record of the change in scripture.

What a Catholic apologist might say is that when Christ gave the keys to the kingdom to what would become "The Church," he also said

18 “Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

The Church concluded that this statement gives the church the authority on theological matters. Those theological conclusions would come to be known as "Tradition." Tradition is supposed to be used along with scripture when The Church considers a subject

Changing worship from Saturday to Sunday made it easier to separate themselves from their Jewish neighbors. It became fashionable to blame Jews for "killing" Christ (still is). Even though we worship a Jew and his death and resurrection brought us salvation.

I am of the opinion that yes, the Sabbath was originally on Saturday and they changed it. .

I believe you are correct to say that a Catholic apologist would say "the Sabbath was originally on Saturday and they changed it" via the traditions of the church.

===============================================
The Catholic Commentary on the Baltimore Catechism post Vatican II - argues the SAME two points.

1965 -- first published 1959

(from "The Faith Explained" by Leo Trese page 243

"we know that in the O.T it was the seventh day of the week - the Sabbath day- which was observed as the Lord's day. that was the law as God gave it...'remember to keep holy the Sabbath day.. the early Christian church determined as the Lord's day the first day of the week. That the church had the right to make such a law is evident...

"The reason for changing the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday lies in the fact that to the Christian church the first day of the week had been made double holy...

"nothing is said in the bible about the change of the Lord's day from Saturday to Sunday..that is why we find so illogical the attitude of many non-Catholic who say they will believe nothing unless they can find it in the bible and yet will continue to keep Sunday as the Lord's day on the say-so of the Catholic church"
 
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BobRyan

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Sounds like the idea of the Great apostasy to me. IN which case, since many of us still adhere to those Churches which have accrued error upon error, how can you have anything but a negative relation to us .

By definition every denomination has at least one doctrine that they believe is correct and distinguishes them fromr their neighboring denomination. This is not "news".

your argument then is that all denominations must only have negative relation to each other since they all hold that their doctrines are correct in every case where they have even one difference with their neighbor. Your view requires that they ignore the doctrines they hold in common and only view each other in a negative light.

That is not logical.
 
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BobRyan

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We would appear to be rejecting the true Gospel by not receiving what was revealed by Ellen G White.

I did not say anything about accepting God's messages given to Ellen White and our doctrinal statements do not claim that one must first accept messages given to Ellen White. Rather we teach "sola scriptura" testing of all doctrine and practice. In our evangelism outreach we always make the case for doctrine based on the Bible alone. In our published statement of doctrine that is the way we present it both to ourselves and to the public.

If that case cannot be made - then it is not made and would fail. We are not positioned to make our case any other way. Yet as Christianity Today noted in 2015 we are the fastest growing and 5th largest Christian denomination in the world. So apparently the Bible-alone method does work for evangelism.
 
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dqhall

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Curious how often you attended SDA church? I wouldn't say SDA church is obsessed with end prophesy, but it is important. I probably hear a sermon on it maybe a few times per year. What I really appreciate more and more is Sabbath school before church. I love having a group Bible study before church.
I working with them in SC over 35 yrs ago, it is not like I will remember every sermon. I studied Biblical archaeology and ancient Near Eastern history in seminary libraries, university libraries and the largest library in America. I toured Israel. Some studies were written and seldom heard.
 
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RBPerry

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I’m sorry, friend, I am confused by the verses you have cited. Maybe you meant Col 2: 16-18 where Paul a Jew says “let nobody pass judgement on you with questions on food or drink or festival or new moon or sabbath.” Acts also in its most literal sense does away with food laws for followers of Christ, but in context it’s about the inclusion of Gentiles into the family of God. The Matthew verses again is Jesus saying the food laws aren’t the end all be all.

It seems that your message agrees with me that following food laws and Sabbath requirements aren’t a requirement for Gentile believers in Christ and are a matter of conscious. Unless I misunderstood something?

You are correct, believers are freed from the old law. I felt verses 13 - 15 leads up to what Paul is conveying.
 
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RBPerry

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anecdotal stories can be found in every denomination. When we look for what a denomination actually teaches we look at their statements of belief.

I too attended SDA schools - in my case it was all SDA schools until my last two years in college and I was never told anything like what you just said.

But if I had a group of students who were fairly new to the entire subject I might first suggest that they learn what we believe before trying to insert themselves into a debate just so they would reflect the position that we hold as accurately as possible.
You are correct, believers are freed from the old law. I felt verses 13 - 15 leads up to what Paul is conveying.

Well Bob that is a nice way of calling me a liar. One thing is for certain and has been pointed out to you your understanding of the new covenant doesn't line up with most orthodox thinking. You have a way of avoiding issues or distorting them that I find amazing.
 
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RBPerry

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I did not say anything about accepting God's messages given to Ellen White and our doctrinal statements do not claim that one must first accept messages given to Ellen White. Rather we teach "sola scriptura" testing of all doctrine and practice. In our evangelism outreach we always make the case for doctrine based on the Bible alone. In our published statement of doctrine that is the way we present it both to ourselves and to the public.

If that case cannot be made - then it is not made and would fail. We are not positioned to make our case any other way. Yet as Christianity Today noted in 2015 we are the fastest growing and 5th largest Christian denomination in the world. So apparently the Bible-alone method does work for evangelism.

The SDA church was founded based on Mrs. White's dreams and you know it. Why is she required reading in SDA schools. How about if we talk about the problematic areas of Mrs. White's teaching. Funny how many SDA seem to want to sperate themselves from her.
 
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Albion

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Well Bob that is a nice way of calling me a liar. One thing is for certain and has been pointed out to you your understanding of the new covenant doesn't line up with most orthodox thinking.

There is no question concerning the church being orthodox. It isn't. But that doesn't make it a cult.

The defining characteristics of a cult as usually accepted would say "yes" to that, but it's still the case that orthodoxy and cultism are two different concepts.
 
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RBPerry

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There is no question concerning the church being orthodox. It isn't. But that doesn't make it a cult.

The defining characteristics of a cult as usually accepted would say "yes" to that, but it's still the case that orthodoxy and cultism are two different concepts.

I would never accuse the SDA of being a cult. I believe they are Christians as I am.
 
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Freth

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My questions are based on my SDA education during the 1960s and early 70.

The SDA church was based a lot on Ellen G Whites dreams or visions.

William Miller started the Millerite movement. William Miller's study of the Bible began sometime in the early 1800's (date unknown), was the foundation of the Millerite movement, which later became the SDA church. William came to his first conclusions on Bible prophecy in 1818, wrote it down in a document in 1822, but did not share it with the public until 1831. Ellen White didn't have her first vision until 1844. The church formed in 1863.

The foundational doctrines of SDA were formed by people like William Miller; many of whom wrote books on their Biblical findings. William Miller was a Baptist. The Millerite movement went world-wide.

Ellen was instrumental in bringing about the many ministries of the church, as is evident from her extensive writings. Here's a short list.
  • The Adventist Home
  • An Appeal to Mothers
  • An Appeal to Youth
  • A Call to Medical Evangelism and Health Education
  • A Call to Stand Apart
  • Child Guidance
  • Christ's Object Lessons
  • Christian Education
  • Christian Leadership
  • Christian Service
  • Christian Temperance and Bible Hygiene
  • The Colporteur Evangelist
  • Colporteur Ministry
  • Counsels for the Church
  • Counsels on Diet and Foods
  • Counsels on Health, Counsels on Stewardship
  • Counsels to Parents
  • Teachers and Students
  • Counsels to Writers and Editors
  • Country Living, Education
  • Evangelism, Faith and Works
  • Fundamentals of Christian Education
  • Gospel Workers
  • The Health Food Ministry
  • Healthful Living
  • Help in Daily Living
  • Last Day Events
  • Letters to Young Lovers
  • Medical Ministry
  • Mind, Character and Personality
  • Ministry of Healing
  • Pastoral Ministry
  • Prayer
  • The Publishing Ministry
  • The Sanctified Life
  • Steps to Christ
  • The Story of Jesus
  • The Story of Redemption
  • Temperance
  • Welfare Ministry
This is what her visions brought forth. This isn't a complete list, it's a partial list. This list exludes her expositions on church history and the scripture.

I'm running out of space, so I'll address the other points in further posts.
 
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RBPerry

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As for this thread that I started I will bow out at this time. I've been told I have offended SDA members and some being family so for me further discussion would only add fuel to the fire.
 
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Cis.jd

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BobRyan said:
What does the New Covenant say is written on heart and mind in our POV?
what does Rom 3:31 say - in our POV?
Eph 6:1-2?
1 Cor 7:19?
I've already answers this. You already gave it: New Covenant. Keeping the Sabbath is not a New covenant.

1. No "societal commandments" text in all of scripture.
2. All major Christian denominations affirm all TEN of the TEN Commandments
3. The New Covenant as given by God in Jer 31:31-34 makes not "just nine-commandments" stipulation or "don't do something God wants you to do" stipulation.
4. Eph 6:1-2 is a direct quote of the 5th commandment and a direct reference to the UNIT of TEN where it is the "first commandment with a promise"
5. 1 Cor 7:19 "commandments of God" does not add "except ones that society might not prefer"
1. Yes there is, anything that deals with relationships with others is by definition, societal. Loving your parents is a social aspect.
2. Yes, but Christian Denominations do not consider the Sabbath a required commandment anymore, it is a Jewish one.
3. Jer is old testament, Christianity was not established yet.
4. Yup, relationship related. Nothing to do with a required Sabbath.
5. You don't get the point of what i'm saying. My posts about "societal" based commandments is in reference to your arguments that include commandments dealing with parents.
 
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Albion

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I would never accuse the SDA of being a cult. I believe they are Christians as I am.
And that's yet another classification.

To be orthodox is one thing. To be a cult is another. And being classified as Christian is something else. Most of the cults that people talk about are Christian, although not Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, OR Protestant in belief.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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Quote one of the Orthodox Catechisms for me on the Sabbath. Show me where they agree with SDA teaching.

Here are just a few....

It is well to remind the Presbyterians, Baptists, Methodists, and all other Christians, that the Bible does not support them anywhere in their observance of Sunday. Sunday is an institution of the Roman Catholic Church, and those who observe the day observe a commandment of the Catholic Church.
—Priest Brady, in an address, reported in the Elizabeth, NJ ‘News’ on March 18, 1903.


Protestants ... accept Sunday rather than Saturday as the day for public worship after the Catholic Church made the change... But the Protestant mind does not seem to realize that ... in observing Sunday, they are accepting the authority of the spokesman for the Church, the pope.
—Our Sunday Visitor, February 5th, 1950


A. Had she not such power, she could not have done that in which all modern religionists agree with her; —she could not have substituted the observance of Sunday the first day of the week, for the observance of Saturday the Seventh day, a change for which there is no Scriptural authority.
—Rev. Stephen Keenan, A Doctrinal Catechism; New York in 1857, page 174

Question: Which is the Sabbath day?
Answer: Saturday is the Sabbath day.

Question: Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?
Answer: We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.
—Rev. Peter Geiermann C.SS.R., The Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p. 50

The Church, on the other hand, after changing the day of rest from the Jewish Sabbath, or Seventh day of the week, to the first, made the Third Commandment refer to Sunday as the day to be kept holy as the Lord's Day. The Council of Trent (Sess. VI, can. xix) condemns those who deny that the Ten Commandments are binding on Christians.
—The Catholic Encyclopedia, Commandments of God, Volume IV, © 1908 by Robert Appleton Company, Online Edition © 1999 by Kevin Knight, Nihil Obstat - Remy Lafort, Censor Imprimatur - +John M. Farley, Archbishop of New York, page 153.

Deny the authority of the Church and you have no adequate or reasonable explanation or justification for the substitution of Sunday for Saturday in the Third - Protestant Fourth - Commandment of God... The Church is above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact.'
—Catholic Record, September 1, 1923.



Here are some that gives a nice endorsement to SDA's...

The [Roman Catholic] Church changed the observance of the Sabbath to Sunday by right of the divine, infallible authority given to her by her founder, Jesus Christ. The Protestant claiming the Bible to be the only guide of faith, has no warrant for observing Sunday. In this matter the Seventh-day Adventist is the only consistent Protestant.
—The Catholic Universe Bulletin, August 14, 1942, p. 4.

Perhaps the boldest thing, the most revolutionary change the Church ever did, happened in the first century. The holy day, the Sabbath, was changed from Saturday to Sunday. "The Day of the Lord" (dies Dominica) was chosen, not from any directions noted in the Scriptures, but from the Church's sense of its own power. The day of resurrection, the day of Pentecost, fifty days later, came on the first day of the week. So this would be the new Sabbath. People who think that the Scriptures should be the sole authority, should logically become 7th Day Adventists, and keep Saturday holy.
—Sentinel, Pastor's page, Saint Catherine Catholic Church, Algonac, Michigan, May 21, 1995



 
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SabbathBlessings

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As for this thread that I started I will bow out at this time. I've been told I have offended SDA members and some being family so for me further discussion would only add fuel to the fire.
I admit I was initially offended, but after some of your other posts, I see you are not outright attacking everything SDA. There are some that do that. It seems it was a long time ago (1974?) when you left the SDA church and it appears with you still wanting to discuss it you may have some lingering issues, that perhaps the Holy Spirit is impressing on you? I hope you rejoin this discussion. As long as we are being respectful to each other. The innuendos by some that SDA is a cult is absurd and I appreciate you setting them straight. God bless
 
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Albion

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The Sabbath being changed is well-documented and it played a huge factor with the Council of Trent.
The Catholic Church's official position on that matter is that the Sabbath was not changed from Saturday to Sunday.
 
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Freth

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My questions are based on my SDA education during the 1960s and early 70.

The SDA insist that Saturday is the only day that can be observed as a sabbath day.

This is true. There are multiple threads that delve deep into scripture as to why. Look up imge's work.

The SDA teach that references to wine in the bible is actually grape juice.

Jesus called Himself the vine and us the branches (John 15:5). Christianity has long used the phrase "the vineyard". New wine is a phrase used for "grape juice" (unfermented wine), but it is also a type.
  • True worship/false worship (Revelation 18:3)
  • New covenant/old covenant (Matthew 9:14-17)
This is why New Wine is indeed considered to be grape juice. The types used clearly point to grape juice, not fermented wine. Fermented wine is the wine of Babylon, the kind that makes you drunk.

The SDA teach that drinking alcohol, coffee, tea is unhealthy therefore a sin.

Alcohol is a depressant, coffee and tea are stimulants. Our body is the temple of God (1 Corinthians 6:19-20) and we are to be of sound mind and good judgment (2 Timothy 1:7), scripture is clearly against drunkenness, which is an impaired state caused by drinking alcohol. It's why you can't drink and drive. Why would any Christian think it's okay to drink substances that cloud the mind and give a false boost of energy? Both of these cause you to crash. Both are addicting; alcohol and caffeine.

The SDA teach that eating meat is unhealthy and therefore is a sin. Especially pork products.

One doesn't need scripture to come to that conclusion. Red meat has been declared a carcinogen. Acrylamide is a carcinogen. People die every day from col-rectal cancer because of a diet of primarily meat. I don't think you can argue that meat is good for you. Pork is still as unclean as the day the law was given to Moses. Practices have greatly reduced parasite infections, but it's still possible for pigs in captivity to get parasites, no matter what you do.

The SDA teach that eating eggs, butter, and milk is unhealthy (based on Mrs. Whites dreams)

The SDA church I grew up in, the congregation used eggs, butter and milk for many of the vegetarian dishes that we would see at potluck. Ellen White did say that toward the end, these items would become toxic and shouldn't be eaten. I believe we're living in that time now and I also believe we're starting to see some of the effects of toxicity and negative effects on the body in recent decades. Still, it's a choice and not central to "being SDA".

The SDA teach that women should not wear makeup or jewelry.

Modesty puts our Christian character on display, sets us apart, which is something we're called to. We are not to be prideful or vain. I think scripture makes that clear. This isn't an SDA concept, it's a Biblical concept.

Most SDA will not become involved with other Christian denominations.

My own church had guest speakers from outside of our denomination. Likewise, our pastor went to other denominations and preached.

Most SDA will disassociate themselves from anyone that leaves the denomination and joins another denomination or church outside of the SDA.

My experiences have been the opposite. Yours may vary.

The SDA has been extremely critical of the Catholic church.

This idea began with the Reformers, which consisted of various denominations, based on Biblical prophecy. It is not exclusive to SDA, but we share their conclusions.

The SDA denomination was founded in 1863 but the movement started in the early 1830s. Ellen G White’s dreams and teaching were the main motivating factor for the foundation of the SDA.

Again, I pointed out that Ellen didn't have her first vision until 1844 and the foundations of the church were laid in the Millerite movement.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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The Catholic Church's official position on that matter is that the Sabbath was not changed from Saturday to Sunday.
In my opinion, it's not what we say, but what we do that matters. Their primary day of worship is Sunday and what they have all quoted it is not from scriptural authority.
 
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